Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason edition

[Emperoreddy]

I mean... where did he say something wrong?

90% of the article. We don't play pond hockey. Jack Hughes isn't just a "nice piece" the idea that the franchise cares more about teitter then winning.

This was peak old man yelling at clouds with zero relevance in the actual game of hockey or why this team succeeds or fails.

It taps into this ridiculous anti-anaylsis and anti-statistic mindset that has creeped into this board that have convinced themselves that talent is basically meaningless. If you just get enough hard working big guys with "intangibles" and a fire brand coach to shout various vague platitudes that a team will itself to a winning reason.

It's the same that calls for Torts. We don't need an actual functioning hockey system. We just need someone to yell at the team enough and somehow we will be a playoff team, goalies be damned.

The social media team has literally zero to do with thr fact that no one could make a save and all our goalies died of various injuries.

 

[Guadana]

So 20-15-2? If that’s accurate that’s roughly a 93-94 points pace? If NJ was anything close to that this year the narrative around thr team would be much different. Obviously the team defense is worthy of criticism but the goalie injuries and subpar play certainly look to the the place to start the offseason.

Post automatically merged: Apr 30, 2022

That was my point about the Pelicans. Google Willie Green and the Pelicans turnaround this season. I’m sure there are other models but VAN and MTL bouncing with new coaches aren’t as close as the Pels are in my view. The Pels were missing their best player and playing multiple rookies in big minutes. The right coach and the right veteran added and they didn’t look back.

19-8-5 in 32 games where devils goalies where 90.5-90.9 or more overall(there were games where one goalie were good but another one missed 3-4 goals by minimum shots.
Its not accurate because I using personal game log of each goalie and I believe I did a couple of mistakes, but picture is very loud.

We can understand that devils can't play every game with average sv%, but the whole of average bad goalie games is different than devils did show.

So... yes. Average goaltending and average PP will help a lot. And trading Smith.

 

[glenwo2]

* Miles Wood and Jonathan Bernier - Terrible injuries, meaning they can't really be trusted next year and their long term career outlook is in doubt

​

I disagree. Miles showed that the surgery hadn't affected his blazing game-speed at all.

Of the two you listed there, Miles has a 90% (minimum) shot at coming back and being as effective as he was Pre-injury/surgery.

 

[PKs Broken Stick]

On the Devils coaching situation:

1) We need to not think of Lindy Ruff as a complete failure. His #1 job was to develop the young talent. Hughes, Bratt, Mercer, Siegenthaler etc. all made giant leaps. Devils were not winning the Stanley Cup with any coach.

2) Ruff's time should be done. Now that the young stars are progressing, it's time to shoot for the 2023 playoffs, and Ruff is probably not the guy to get NJ there.

3) My suggestion for the new coach would be Kirk Mueller. Mueller is a very bright guy who has done excellently as assistant in Montreal and Calgary. He would have certainly gotten the Montreal job if he spoke French. He was a longtime Devils captain, and a character guy.

4) My back up suggestion would be Islanders assistant Lane Lambert, also a great hockey mind. You're probably going to need to move fast on him though, as he's my guess to fill the Detroit opening.

Some great suggestions here!

 

[Team Concept]

Larry Brooks summed up the Devils perfectly in this article today:

Devils need Buck Showalter-esque authority figure to restore success

 

[tailfins]

I’m not sure why people have this knee jerk reaction against Brooks.

The core of his article was:

- the Devils have prioritized entertainment over winning. This is debatable. But a system where the forwards fly the zone at the first sign of possession is basically pond hockey. Any debate on that is attempting to create a distinction without a difference.

- the Devils have no local media coverage. True. Many here complain about this. There are two local papers and myriad other media entities in the area. But the Devils don’t generate enough interest to make it worthwhile for someone to cover the team, even as an exclusive beat. Even with their emphasis on “entertainment”.

- the Devils ownership has a convoluted decision making process in place. We know this is why Shero was let go. The Canes seem to have a similar sounding structure, but we don’t really know if they operate the same. Otherwise, there aren’t many successful versions of what Harris and Blitzer are trying to do.

- addressing these issues requires an organizational change. Brooks suggests people to bring into the organization, but also says that the organization needs to change for any of these people to be able to help. Perhaps his direction is wrong and the Devils need to lean more into what the Canes are doing. But, I don’t know how anyone could look at what’s currently happening and see the current approach as succeeding.

At best you can say that the current approach is generating the talent / raw ingredients required to succeed. But, that feels more like the result of time and sucking, not an outcome of any sort of proactive plan. Pro sports are set up to reward losing. The Devils have been losers. I’m pretty sure they could have hired me to get to that outcome. It’s very unclear what the difference is between the Devils recent management vs hiring a bunch of hfboards posters.

At some point, the Devils need professional management. Talent can’t win by itself - at least not with a salary cap and free agency.

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

I’m not sure why people have this knee jerk reaction against Brooks.

The core of his article was:

- the Devils have prioritized entertainment over winning. This is debatable. But a system where the forwards fly the zone at the first sign of possession is basically pond hockey. Any debate on that is attempting to create a distinction without a difference.

- the Devils have no local media coverage. True. Many here complain about this. There are two local papers and myriad other media entities in the area. But the Devils don’t generate enough interest to make it worthwhile for someone to cover the team, even as an exclusive beat. Even with their emphasis on “entertainment”.

- the Devils ownership has a convoluted decision making process in place. We know this is why Shero was let go. The Canes seem to have a similar sounding structure, but we don’t really know if they operate the same. Otherwise, there aren’t many successful versions of what Harris and Blitzer are trying to do.

- addressing these issues requires an organizational change. Brooks suggests people to bring into the organization, but also says that the organization needs to change for any of these people to be able to help. Perhaps his direction is wrong and the Devils need to lean more into what the Canes are doing. But, I don’t know how anyone could look at what’s currently happening and see the current approach as succeeding.

At best you can say that the current approach is generating the talent / raw ingredients required to succeed. But, that feels more like the result of time and sucking, not an outcome of any sort of proactive plan. Pro sports are set up to reward losing. The Devils have been losers. I’m pretty sure they could have hired me to get to that outcome. It’s very unclear what the difference is between the Devils recent management vs hiring a bunch of hfboards posters.

At some point, the Devils need professional management. Talent can’t win by itself - at least not with a salary cap and free agency.

Isn't the Devils organizational structure modeled on the Sixers? It also sounds like what we know of the Canes's approach. Both those teams seem to me mostly making smart decisions. I'm unconvinced the organizational structure will doom the team, and the Devils need to revert to a single hockey man driving things. The benefit of the single hockey man approach is bold moves can be made when needed without the frictions of bureaucracy, but I don't really think the Devils need that right now. The only thing about the Devils structure that I find truly odd is how Ruff couldn't hire his own assistants. I hope they fire the staff and let the next HC hire his own assistants, that set up seems less than ideal.

 

[Better Call Sal]

The last person I’ll ever take input on the Devils organization from is Larry f***ing Brooks.

That article was a classic case of someone viewing things from afar, especially when one of your largest critiques are what the social media team is doing posting about one of their top prospects being recalled.

It doesn’t take an expert to realize that this is a young team that needs a new direction. And correct me if I’m wrong, the spin was likely that Ruff being a veteran coach would be a guy to steer these guys in the right direction.

If you want to say that it’s up to ownership to get the right man at the helm for this group, sure. But he seems hellbent on calling out the team for social media stuff that every single team in the league does which has absolutely nothing to do with the product on the ice. All the while, he seems to largely dismiss the other issues that have plagued the team this year as well for what fits his narrative (as usual).

This is going to be a long ass offseason.

 

[Triumph]

I’m not sure why people have this knee jerk reaction against Brooks.

The core of his article was:

- the Devils have prioritized entertainment over winning. This is debatable. But a system where the forwards fly the zone at the first sign of possession is basically pond hockey. Any debate on that is attempting to create a distinction without a difference.

It's very debatable. It creates the notion that a team cannot be entertaining and win when that's less true than any time in NHL memory. Did you see what the Florida Panthers did this season? How about the Islanders, how'd they do? Certainly didn't try to entertain people, where'd they end up?

- the Devils have no local media coverage. True. Many here complain about this. There are two local papers and myriad other media entities in the area. But the Devils don’t generate enough interest to make it worthwhile for someone to cover the team, even as an exclusive beat. Even with their emphasis on “entertainment”.

This has all sorts of structural issues associated with it that have zero to do with the on-ice product of the Devils. The newspaper business is dying and the bones are being picked - who knew that newspapers made much of their money on ads and lost money on subscriptions? The Athletic is run by vulture venture capitalists and will be gone in 10 years or unrecognizable.

- the Devils ownership has a convoluted decision making process in place. We know this is why Shero was let go. The Canes seem to have a similar sounding structure, but we don’t really know if they operate the same. Otherwise, there aren’t many successful versions of what Harris and Blitzer are trying to do.

We don't know this, neither Ray Shero or ownership has said this in public. We've heard from insiders that this is the case, and where do you think insiders got their information? There's also plenty of examples of letting one person control all of the decision making being a disaster.

- addressing these issues requires an organizational change. Brooks suggests people to bring into the organization, but also says that the organization needs to change for any of these people to be able to help. Perhaps his direction is wrong and the Devils need to lean more into what the Canes are doing. But, I don’t know how anyone could look at what’s currently happening and see the current approach as succeeding.

It's not succeeding but it isn't failing either. It is the danger of running an organization this way that people who buy in to the structure are too highly valued and you can't let go of them. We'll see what happens in two weeks.

At best you can say that the current approach is generating the talent / raw ingredients required to succeed. But, that feels more like the result of time and sucking, not an outcome of any sort of proactive plan. Pro sports are set up to reward losing. The Devils have been losers. I’m pretty sure they could have hired me to get to that outcome. It’s very unclear what the difference is between the Devils recent management vs hiring a bunch of hfboards posters.

At some point, the Devils need professional management. Talent can’t win by itself - at least not with a salary cap and free agency.

Before the last 2 years, they drafted pretty darn well outside of the 1st round and they were missing a decent number of 2nd rounders in those years.

 

[NJDevs26]

We mock the MSG telecast all the time here for over the top homerism trying to sell the product, why can’t Brooks do that with social media?

 

[devilsblood]

I missed the final couple games, and the subsequent Holtz talk which followed.

My early takes on seeing Holtz left me pretty concerned about his potential, I think the lack of skating is the biggest issue, this is very much a skating league, he looks to be average at best in that dept. Now I don't brush away the strong AHL numbers at a young age, but if those early season NHL struggles were still evident we may have to come to grips with the idea that he won't start the season in the NHL next year, something I previously was thinking was a sure thing.

Now there are some positives to him starting in the AHL. For one, not having another 20 year old rookie on the team allows us to keep another vet around, whether that be Zacha, Tatar Kuok,or some other acquisition, so we are not continuing to ice such a ridiculously young forward group. 2ndly it pushes back the contract considerations even further. He didn't burn an ELC year this year, that's a silver lining or sorts, him starting next year in Utica, and perhaps having a Zetterlund (I know different type of player, just talking coming in and impressing) like year in the NHL next year further pushes back having to think about Holtz taking up a significant % of cap space anytime soon. Obviously we'd all love if Holtz already had 20 goals in his pocket and he was a lock for a top line role next season, but IF Holtz is more on a slow developmental path, there are benefits to that.

 

[devilsblood]

Brooks makes a pretty easy call, ie, the Devils should hire a really good coach, which Showalter has proven to be. And it's an even easier call to make given the Met's hot start.

Granted Showalter has never won a title, and also consider the Mets went out and spent $80 mil on a great player who is noted as a great club house leader,

But should the Mets hire a good coach this offseason? I imagine 100% of Devils fans will agree with that.

 

[devilsblood]

One thing we are definitely seeing these past couple years is that staying patient, and allowing players to develop slowly does pay dividends.

Sieg's, Shara, Boq, Zetterlund, Bastian McLeod all guys who at times I think were written off or just never highly thought of even a couple years into their pro careers.

Now most of those guys are likely bottom 6 guys, and some of those were high picks, so bottom 6 is not what we were hoping for on draft day, but they still contribute, they provide depth, and they do so at a bargain price.
And we have a bunch more guys like Bahl, Foote, OK, Walsh, Smith, and as talked about above, Holtz, who we hope can follow a similar path.

 

[markog]

When will heads start rolling?

 

[NjdevilfanJim]

This is an important offseason but I think more for the direction of the next few years realizing we still have to be patient we are still a couple of years away from really being competitive....

 

[Oneiro]

Beyond Zacha and Johnsson, feels like a few trades have to be made over the next two seasons anyway. A lot of guys banging on the door up front. It's nice from a cap perspective but waivers + limited roles is going to force their hand on some of them.

Wood, Zetterlund, Holtz, Foote, Stillman, Moynihan and then Gritsyuk later on. Not to mention the upcoming LD logjam. If there's ever a time to try to do a quantity for quality deal - if it's even possible - it might be right now.

 

[Guttersniped]

But I’m saying that the system and the goaltending are more connected than anyone here is willing to admit.

I’ll give Fitz credit, he’ll look for goaltending help (and it will promptly shit the bed because we’re cursed). But it won’t mean nearly as much if they keep the coaches and their awful system.

I don’t understand this though. Neither starter was healthy at any point of the season. Bernier started 8 games (10 GP). Blackwood started 24 games (25 GP).

Do you believe in the concept of NHL quality starters and that teams need them? Goaltending isn’t a concept here, it’s a key position. Any team that doesn’t have it’s starters for most of the year will do worse, probably a lot worse, unless they have someone in minors who’s NHL quality. (Or trade for that.)

I actively disliked things about Ruff’s system in regards to defense and I’m not the only one. I also think it got worse at times, teams play differently over a season. Our PK was fantastic for months but then really fell off too.

Our team defense is far from the worst in the league though and goalies have to bail teams out at times.

Fitz looks looked for goaltending help in the pre-season and got 8 starts from Bernier and 8 periods from Wedgewood. And surgery for Blackwood that proved to be a disaster for his season.

I don’t bother with imaginary realities of what ifs about how we would have done with better goaltending. We got what we got. But acting like other teams would have done just swell with our goalies is bizarre. And not having a stable goalie that the skaters familiar with, and vice versa, is going to make our play messier.

I’m going to wait more than one day before worrying about what happens with coaches. No one claims “it’s just the goaltending” and that’s the one piece keeping us as world beaters but if Hughes and Nico had played a combined 35 games I’m guessing people would have pointed to that as big problem. And Goalies are the toughest position to deal with injuries.

Plus it’s the one position it’s essential that we address in the off-season, though other needs are there. It deserves the focus it’s getting. (And it’s not like Ruff & Co. aren’t getting criticisms.)

 

[NjdevilfanJim]

I missed the final couple games, and the subsequent Holtz talk which followed.

My early takes on seeing Holtz left me pretty concerned about his potential, I think the lack of skating is the biggest issue, this is very much a skating league, he looks to be average at best in that dept. Now I don't brush away the strong AHL numbers at a young age, but if those early season NHL struggles were still evident we may have to come to grips with the idea that he won't start the season in the NHL next year, something I previously was thinking was a sure thing.

Now there are some positives to him starting in the AHL. For one, not having another 20 year old rookie on the team allows us to keep another vet around, whether that be Zacha, Tatar Kuok,or some other acquisition, so we are not continuing to ice such a ridiculously young forward group. 2ndly it pushes back the contract considerations even further. He didn't burn an ELC year this year, that's a silver lining or sorts, him starting next year in Utica, and perhaps having a Zetterlund (I know different type of player, just talking coming in and impressing) like year in the NHL next year further pushes back having to think about Holtz taking up a significant % of cap space anytime soon. Obviously we'd all love if Holtz already had 20 goals in his pocket and he was a lock for a top line role next season, but IF Holtz is more on a slow developmental path, there are benefits to that.

Being patient is always good that is one thing Fitz has stressed since taking over....Holtz will be fine....

 

[billingtons ghost]

90% of the article. We don't play pond hockey. Jack Hughes isn't just a "nice piece" the idea that the franchise cares more about teitter then winning.

This was peak old man yelling at clouds with zero relevance in the actual game of hockey or why this team succeeds or fails.

It taps into this ridiculous anti-anaylsis and anti-statistic mindset that has creeped into this board that have convinced themselves that talent is basically meaningless. If you just get enough hard working big guys with "intangibles" and a fire brand coach to shout various vague platitudes that a team will itself to a winning reason.

It's the same that calls for Torts. We don't need an actual functioning hockey system. We just need someone to yell at the team enough and somehow we will be a playoff team, goalies be damned.

The social media team has literally zero to do with thr fact that no one could make a save and all our goalies died of various injuries.

Meh. Agree with some of your post, but I think there's plenty of room for us not to always turn the puck over at every blueline we cross - and there's certainly something about having players that don't clam up as soon as the hitting begins - and there's something to be said about playing a shred of defense sometimes.

The thing that has crept onto this board is the silly idea that 'talent' means 5'8, 160lb jitterbugs and that the ENTIRE team needs to have a high level of talent.

I'm a hell of alot more impressed with the passes that Crosby and Bergeron and other great two way guys opt NOT to make than just the ones they make. Those guys (and the people appreciate them) don't want a Torts-like coach that wants his players to lay down in front and block shots. We don't need that. They also don't want unidimensional Thomas Tatar or Johnsson who might supplement scoring IN THE EXACT RIGHT SITUATION but add nothing else.

We've got lots of guys with lots of talent who have alot of growing to do, and I'm really happy about that because we will have a good team. But right now, it isn't about trying to add Johnny Gaudreau or TALENT. It's about finding the right pieces that complete this team and jettisoning some of the 'talent' that cannot exist on its own and doesn't make this team difficult to play against.

We are super super soft - and if you watch the playoffs this coming week, you're going to see WSH and FLA beat the crap out of each other in front of a couple of bad goalies. You'll see MIN play a solid D game and STL try to beat them up a bit. You'll see some talent-laden teams fold like they do every year. Kane isn't in EDM just because of his stick handling - he makes space - and as a result this might be the first year EDM might make some noise.

It would be really nice to fix the 'goalie situation' but I'm pretty steadfast in my belief that buying a Bobrovsky or Lehner will get us exactly what it got Vegas this year because we aren't good enough to protect them and they'll fall apart mentally - just like the ridiculous horde of goalies did for us this year. There's just no quick fix here unless you fix team defense first. We sure don't need to pump 6m+ into a #1 goalie because we'll all be wondering where his confidence went and we'll be checking Capfriendly every day for buyout costs.

Playing the game the right way and making good decisions and being physically dominant are pretty good talents too as will be amply shown by playoff teams. The qualities you derided and talent aren't mutually exclusive for many teams in this league, and it shouldn't be for us either.

Not sure why it always has to be one way or the other and not both.

 

[Guttersniped]

The Brooks article bitches about the best Athletic article in months about the Devils. It was the first one where Shayna wasn’t just writing about stats and actually interviewed people in the organization. So no, it wasn’t “outrageous”, some fans actually want to hear from analytics department. (And I didn’t see it as “bragging” but I prefer articles like that to columnists like this).

He starts to address the goaltending but that gets one sentence so he can complain about the Instagram account lol.

The lack of local media coverage is also due to the death of local newspapers, the Jersey ones are walking corpses, shells of their former selves that have been bought and destroyed by media conglomerates.

Chris Drury rules the Rangers with an iron fist lol. Sure, then what does Sather do? I have a feeling Dolan listens to one guy and it isn’t Drury.

I guess he’s arguing the team could use a President of Hockey Operations? Maybe, not sure what that has to do with Buck Showalter though. (And maybe we should wait and see how the Mets season goes a bit.)

I’m starting to hate this “pond hockey” shit. We were an offensive graveyard for a decade and finally show life there and people just bitch about it. (And again, Ruff’s system isn’t perfect but damn, people are being over the top about it. And he’s likely a goner so it won’t be a problem for long.)

 

[Oneiro]

Severson's evaluation of the team/season: "We definitely fell short, we had high expectations for ourselves...our key players took steps...their are pieces in place, but we've got to stop saying that...Next year if we're still here talking when other teams are still playing...it will be a huge disappointment for the organization...The rebuild is hopefully over." Severson says he is open to discussing extending with the Devils.

 

[Bleedred]

The Brooks article bitches about the best Athletic article in months about the Devils. It was the first one where Shayna wasn’t just writing about stats and actually interviewed people in the organization. So no, it wasn’t “outrageous”, some fans actually want to hear from analytics department. (And I didn’t see it as “bragging” but I prefer articles like that to columnists like this).

He starts to address the goaltending but that gets one sentence so he can complain about the Instagram account lol.

The lack of local media coverage is also due to the death of local newspapers, the Jersey ones are walking corpses, shells of their former selves that have been bought and destroyed by media conglomerates.

Chris Drury rules the Rangers with an iron fist lol. Sure, then what does Sather do? I have a feeling Dolan listens to one guy and it isn’t Drury.

I guess he’s arguing the team could use a President of Hockey Operations? Maybe, not sure what that has to do with Buck Showalter though. (And maybe we should wait and see how the Mets season goes a bit.)

I’m starting to hate this “pond hockey” shit. We were an offensive graveyard for a decade and finally show life there and people just bitch about it. (And again, Ruff’s system isn’t perfect but damn, people are being over the top about it. And he’s likely a goner so it won’t be a problem for long.)

Larry Brooks has been calling for Ruff's firing since even before any of us were. I don't know if they had a problem with each other when Lindy was coaching with the Rangers (Larry Brooks and a coach having issues with each other? Really? Cause that's clearly never happened before!) or what, but he had a piece slamming Ruff and screaming for his termination probably no later than the middle of December.

 

[billingtons ghost]

I actively disliked things about Ruff’s system in regards to defense and I’m not the only one. I also think it got worse at times, teams play differently over a season. Our PK was fantastic for months but then really fell off too.

Our team defense is far from the worst in the league though and goalies have to bail teams out at times.

Your post is a good one, but for me it comes down to bolded.

Goalies like determinism. The ubertalented ones can bail teams out of just about any situation because they are supreme athletes at the top of their game physically and mentally - and they deserve to be at the awards banquets and have their names on Presidents trophies and if they are lucky will carry a cup around at some point.

The rest of the middling mass can bail out an odd breakaway, and can typically at least have a plan in mind for what to do when things break down - but they usually need the clue of how it might break down. This goes for beerleague up to the NHL.

Goalies DEFINITELY know who are on the ice. You see defenseman A backing in towards you on a 2-on-1 and you know he'll cut the pass and so you play the shooter. You see defenseman B coming your way on a 2-on-1 facing the wrong way and in positional no-man's land and you load up on your skate edge because you're going to have to get across - AND THAT MAKES YOU VULNERABLE BECAUSE YOU ARE GUESSING.

The same goes for forwards and their assignments - you can be sure that Bergeron is going to get a stick on that pass, or be there to tie up a stick. And you see this and know this and it changes how you react to the situation.

To be a truly great goalie, you've got be guessing like 0% of the time. All reacting. Or all your guesses have to be right and work out for you.

The problem facing our goalies (and has been for the last 5 or so years) is that there is literally nothing to rely upon out there. There's no guarantee anyone other than Siegenthaler or maybe Graves is going to do something the same way twice - and Siegs is still young. There's no guarantee that anyone other than Nico is going to pick up the right guy. There's no guarantee anyone will move your screen, block a shot for you, get a stick on a pass. Anywhere on the ice.

That makes it just 100% guess time. Look at the shots that are going in. They make our goalies look frigging silly. Why? Because they are pushing in this direction when the puck goes the other way.

So, yeah - nothing we had on the ice in net was very good, although I'll maintain that Dawes probably had the best shot - certainly when he FIRST got there because he was flowing with confidence - and it wasnt' until he had seen enough of our team and its unreliability before things got kinda weird and he started having doubts and started really guessing.

They can deal with Ty Smith skating in circles and Subban sliding on his belly and Severson's odd decisions but just not game after game after game. Even the quality of the defensemen themselves is diminished if they are always caught out of position and scrambling after blue line turnovers - so there's that.

What's scary to me is that with Graves and Hamilton additions, we actually got BETTER. And that was until they split them up to play with worse defensemen or injuries split them up. At least the goalies had 1/3rd+ of a game of determinism; and I don't think anyone would claim Hamilton was signed be a shutdown guy.

Does the above make any sense to anyone? I don't know. I can just say psychologically for a fact that our entire goalie squad was beaten before it stepped on the ice most games because of the above.

Edit: and by 'determinism' I mean - if the guy gets past you, let it be to the outside. If you are going to play the puck with your stick or skate, make sure you can actually get it and not just deflect it oddly. Pls make sure you are at least somewhere where you need to be to cut passes, tie up sticks, etc....

 

[britdevil]

"Rebuild is over" LMAO

 

[Guadana]

Time to sign Yegor, before his numbers will go higher.