Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason edition

[RSeen]

so you think wright is gunna be a career 40 point player? oof...I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say here. Cirelli is a depth player, idk why you're even talking about him.

Cirelli is one of the best defensive forwards in the league. He is not a depth player.

 

[McDuffz88]

You make a fair point, but your dislike for Smith makes you sound a tad biased. 95% chance he doesn't make the team is just ridiculous. If he isn't traded I think there's a better chance he makes the team than Bahl or Okhotyuk. You're way too optimistic about our defensive depth, lets be honest we really just have Hamilton Siegs Severson and Graves (who some don't like either), the rest of the slots are wide open. Hughes is at least a year away, I'd be thrilled if Shakir is already NHL ready but I seriously doubt it. Bahl looked decent the last few games this season, but the most part he looks more lost than Smith. Okhotyuk also had his moments, but didn't think he looked NHL caliber just yet.

All your arguments are based on the fact that Smith continues to play like he did this season, and no way should he make the team then. I personally hope he blows his competition away and gets back on track. If he doesn't then send him down, get rid of him whatever. My whole argument is never sell low.

I will admit I'm a tad biased against Smith but it's because I watched an entire season of him being awful & then when he got sat for Bahl & Okhotuik it was like a breath of fresh air. Watching dmen who use size, tenacity, & actually play some defense is something I haven't seen on this team in quite some time. But besides that fact I think the reason I'm more against Smith is because he's just not in the long term plans for this team. Once we drafted Luke Hughes, the writing was on the wall for Smith. He's a dude who needs PP to do his thing but on our team he's just not going to get that chance. I would be more inclined to keep him if Luke wasn't waiting to emerge & we can afford to take our time developing Smith. Unfortunately for us Smith will lose all value if he doesn't make the team & I fear he will never get a chance to crack the team after that. This season is do or die for Smith. Next year Hughes is 100% joining the team & that's when it will be impossible for Smith to ever see daylight again. I'm just looking at the whole situation from a team building perspective. I just feel we would be better off trading him for a RD since we have 0 prospects on that side.

 

[ninetyeight]

Unfortunately for us Smith will lose all value if he doesn't make the team

What kinda value do you think he has? I think people in this sub are overestimating what kinda value guys like Smith Johnsson Tatar, or even Zacha at this point, have. We can't just dump our junk and expect someone to give something valuable back. If someone is willing to give something of value for Smith (let's say equal to 2nd round pick value or better) then sure trade him. But I really doubt that's going to happen. So in my eyes Smith is far more valuable as a lottery ticket. When other guys surpass him then you can trade him with more value. Getting rid of guys when their value is at an all time low I think is just bad asset management, and I'd rather just hold on to them and hope they can figure it out. But I do respect everyone's opposite take on this too, we'll see what happens.

 

[My3Sons]

What kinda value do you think he has? I think people in this sub are overestimating what kinda value guys like Smith Johnsson Tatar, or even Zacha at this point, have. We can't just dump our junk and expect someone to give something valuable back. If someone is willing to give something of value for Smith (let's say equal to 2nd round pick value or better) then sure trade him. But I really doubt that's going to happen. So in my eyes Smith is far more valuable as a lottery ticket. When other guys surpass him then you can trade him with more value. Getting rid of guys when their value is at an all time low I think is just bad asset management, and I'd rather just hold on to them and hope they can figure it out. But I do respect everyone's opposite take on this too, we'll see what happens.

The value of Smith is to remind NJ brass how important skating and the ability to execute quickly are in today’s game. Hopefully the team avoids guys who can’t move at least reasonably well and can’t bring their talent to bear without having to overthink it.

 

[Eggtimer]

You are all misunderstanding my point. This season's Ty Smith shouldn't play anywhere. The point is to give him a chance to bounce back and earn his spot in the team. He's a 22 yo defensemen ffs! And a one with excellent junior career and potential. You don't just get rid of a guy like that for nothing just because you hated his play on an injury ridden season with league's worst goaltending.

Goaltending had nothing to do with how terrible he was. I just cant see him improving on what makes him bad - foot speed.
I do want / hope for him to turn it around but I can’t see it happening , so now is the logical time to move him before he drops in value even more.
So what happens if we give him a shot in camp and he gets badly outplayed by others? Then what ?
Its just not only his recent play m more importantly , his style of game is redundant (Hamilton and Severson fill his role way better ) . We need to get more physical on the back end and compliment the other guys with a more defensive and physical type D — Okhotyuk Bahl Shakir .
There just isn’t really a good fit for him even if he does improve .

As far as value goes, I hope we can work out a trade with the Kings for a RHD that may be in a similar position with their club as Smith is here. I’d prefer that over a draft pick , unless someone gives us a crazy offer like a very late 1st or early 2nd , which I highly doubt happens

I do think his value is stil, decent. He is a youg , cost controlled D with very good pedigree. Last season however dropped his value substantially . But then we would never consider trading him if he improved on his rookie season.

Zacha I think has okay value , Johnson might have some with his actual salary being so cheap . Tatar on the other hand is a dime a doze player that is somewhat slightly overpaid , but still a proven player , so might get a very minimal return like a very late pick ? I think we are stuck with Tatar but it’s only for one more year

 

[StevenToddIves]

Inre: the Ty Smith debate, I don't think he has any chance of beating out Okhotyuk, Bahl and Mukhamadullin for the 3-LD spot out of camp, and this would lower his trade value to a precarious degree. Therefore, I think the best thing to do would be to include him in a deal before camp opens.

There are several valuable players apparently available, players whom are going under the radar because everyone goes nuts every time a DeBrincat or Gaudreau are mentioned in the media.

Martin Necas might be available out of Carolina, and this is a kid with terrific upside. How about a trade where Necas goes to the Devils and Smith + Kuokkanen to Carolina?

Or how about LA -- losing two LD to UFA in Edler and Maata? Young RFA center Gabe Vilardi has been pushed down the depth chart by the Danault signing and the emergence of Quinton Byfield and could be available. NJ might be able to deal Smith for Vilardi-plus. Hell, if RD Brock Faber can be had, I'd be willing to throw in Zacha into that deal, as well.

Instead of just "shopping Smith to the highest bidder", I feel Fitzgerald should be targeting available quality players from other organizations, and using Smith as currency in order to acquire them.

 

[ninetyeight]

I just cant see him improving on what makes him bad - foot speed.

The value of Smith is to remind NJ brass how important skating and the ability to execute quickly are in today’s game. Hopefully the team avoids guys who can’t move at least reasonably well

I don't know if you know this but Ty Smith's skating was actually one of his strengths in predraft scouting.

"Elite skating defender whose upside is not far off from the top defenders in the 2018 class" ISS Hockey 2017

"Smith is an excellent skater. He can rush the puck up the ice, or pinch in at the blue line and still cover up his spot defensively. He has excellent speed in both directions. His acceleration is elite, as he reaches top speed in just one or two strides." LWOS

"Smaller, faster players are becoming more common on the blue line, and Smith fits the mold of how future NHLers are trending." - NJ.com

"LD T. Smith while Dahlin is far-and-away the class of the class of 2018, not much separates Hughes/Boqvist/Smith. They are all undersized, extremely fast, extremely smart, extremely skilled. One of my favorite prospects in this draft. Although he is one of many super-fast, offensive-minded and undersized defensemen in this draft, he is also outstanding defensively. He has elite vision and intelligence, and he is as competitive as any player available. Reminds me a lot of a young Duncan Keith."
- @StevenToddIves

Etc..

He's not a Hughes brother, but he's definitely not Will Butcher either.

 

[njdevils1982]

What kinda value do you think he has? I think people in this sub are overestimating what kinda value guys like Smith Johnsson Tatar, or even Zacha at this point, have. We can't just dump our junk and expect someone to give something valuable back. If someone is willing to give something of value for Smith (let's say equal to 2nd round pick value or better) then sure trade him. But I really doubt that's going to happen. So in my eyes Smith is far more valuable as a lottery ticket. When other guys surpass him then you can trade him with more value. Getting rid of guys when their value is at an all time low I think is just bad asset management, and I'd rather just hold on to them and hope they can figure it out. But I do respect everyone's opposite take on this too, we'll see what happens.

the coyotes would probably take johnsson...after all, they are the league's dumping ground

 

[My3Sons]

Inre: the Ty Smith debate, I don't think he has any chance of beating out Okhotyuk, Bahl and Mukhamadullin for the 3-LD spot out of camp, and this would lower his trade value to a precarious degree. Therefore, I think the best thing to do would be to include him in a deal before camp opens.

There are several valuable players apparently available, players whom are going under the radar because everyone goes nuts every time a DeBrincat or Gaudreau are mentioned in the media.

Martin Necas might be available out of Carolina, and this is a kid with terrific upside. How about a trade where Necas goes to the Devils and Smith + Kuokkanen to Carolina?

Or how about LA -- losing two LD to UFA in Edler and Maata? Young RFA center Gabe Vilardi has been pushed down the depth chart by the Danault signing and the emergence of Quinton Byfield and could be available. NJ might be able to deal Smith for Vilardi-plus. Hell, if RD Brock Faber can be had, I'd be willing to throw in Zacha into that deal, as well.

Instead of just "shopping Smith to the highest bidder", I feel Fitzgerald should be targeting available quality players from other organizations, and using Smith as currency in order to acquire them.

Why would CAR want to get Kuokkanen back?

I don't know if you know this but Ty Smith's skating was actually one of his strengths in predraft scouting.

"Elite skating defender whose upside is not far off from the top defenders in the 2018 class" ISS Hockey 2017

"Smith is an excellent skater. He can rush the puck up the ice, or pinch in at the blue line and still cover up his spot defensively. He has excellent speed in both directions. His acceleration is elite, as he reaches top speed in just one or two strides." LWOS

"Smaller, faster players are becoming more common on the blue line, and Smith fits the mold of how future NHLers are trending." - NJ.com

Etc..

He's not a Hughes brother, but he's definitely not Will Butcher either.

I recall that and was surprised when he looked lacking in foot speed. This past season he also struggled with execution which maybe was secondary to injury?

 

[Devils731]

Why would CAR want to get Kuokkanen back?


I recall that and was surprised when he looked lacking in foot speed. This past season he also struggled with execution which maybe was secondary to injury?

To me, Smith appeared markedly frail the first half of the season. He seemed to barely be able to stand at times.

Smith isn’t a burner but when he appears more robust he avoids battle through good edge work and agility; which he seemed unable to do for the first half of the season.

————-

I do wonder if Smith is victim of a larger issue of the coaches not sitting players who are ineffective due to injuries.

Id rather guys take an extra week or two and come back at 90-95% but the Devils seem to put you right back in the lineup at 60% as long as the player says they can play.

 

[ninetyeight]

Martin Necas might be available out of Carolina, and this is a kid with terrific upside. How about a trade where Necas goes to the Devils and Smith + Kuokkanen to Carolina?

Or how about LA -- losing two LD to UFA in Edler and Maata? Young RFA center Gabe Vilardi has been pushed down the depth chart by the Danault signing and the emergence of Quinton Byfield and could be available. NJ might be able to deal Smith for Vilardi-plus. Hell, if RD Brock Faber can be had, I'd be willing to throw in Zacha into that deal, as well.

Instead of just "shopping Smith to the highest bidder", I feel Fitzgerald should be targeting available quality players from other organizations, and using Smith as currency in order to acquire them.

All of these sound way good to be true, I especially doubt LA is willing to give up on Vilardi (who was ppg in the ahl this season) just yet. And I don't think Kuokkanen has any value either, he was terrible last season.

 

[JimEIV]

"Elite skating defender whose upside is not far off from the top defenders in the 2018 class" ISS Hockey 2017

"Smith is an excellent skater. He can rush the puck up the ice, or pinch in at the blue line and still cover up his spot defensively. He has excellent speed in both directions. His acceleration is elite, as he reaches top speed in just one or two strides." LWOS

"Smaller, faster players are becoming more common on the blue line, and Smith fits the mold of how future NHLers are trending." - NJ.com

"LD T. Smith while Dahlin is far-and-away the class of the class of 2018, not much separates Hughes/Boqvist/Smith. They are all undersized, extremely fast, extremely smart, extremely skilled. One of my favorite prospects in this draft. Although he is one of many super-fast, offensive-minded and undersized defensemen in this draft, he is also outstanding defensively. He has elite vision and intelligence, and he is as competitive as any player available. Reminds me a lot of a young Duncan Keith."
- @StevenToddIves

Etc..

He's not a Hughes brother, but he's definitely not Will Butcher either.

Those scouting reports were simply unequivocally wrong.

Smith's 2nd training camp here in 2019 we saw the footspeed and skating issues and it was discussed...Most just dismissed it and cited the "scouts"

I don't remember exactly, but I think it was preseason game against I want to say Philly where Smith was burned 3 times in the game. That training camp had him sent back to Spokane and the skating got swept under the rug when he had another great WHL season. But they were always there.

You can also go back and find the many "Larsson is an excellent skater" scouting reports too. Which were equally as wrong.

 

[Hisch13r]

Ty Smith was not that bad his last 30 games of the season. He started off as one of the worst players in the NHL but finished okay. I wouldn’t be opposed to dealing him if we’re getting something of value back. It’s definitely stupid to just dump him though, he has potential.

I don't think there's really much of a future here for him. I want a bounce back to move him. Between Dougie, Luke, and maybe Severson he's just redundant and at best will be the 3rd best offensive Dman and PP guy while also likely ending up bad defensively.

I get being wary about size but it's also pretty reasonable to be wary about the history of top 5 forwards coming from Liiga, most of whom have seemed quite unprepared for the NHL (Kotkaniemi, Laine, Kakko, Puljujaarvi). But Barkov and Rantanen on the other hand too, so I get it.

I usually don't even consider personality, but I do like Slaf's directness and charisma, maybe ego to some. I think that alone can have a big say in him not becoming Zacha 2.0. (And yes, I acknowledge he's a quite different player to Zacha, but I'm talking about having an underwhelming enigmatic talent.)

In general, I can't say it matters to me much who they pick from Wright, Slafkovsky, Nemec, Jiricek or Cooley. I want another Mercer-caliber player out of it and if we get that, I'm fine. I think we can afford to take the gamble on Slaf, but I'm not losing sleep over Cooley being too similar.

Laine doesn't belong in that group. Sure he could be better but he's still generally been a really good producer.

 

[Triumph]

I don't think there's really much of a future here for him. I want a bounce back to move him. Between Dougie, Luke, and maybe Severson he's just redundant and at best will be the 3rd best offensive Dman and PP guy while also likely ending up bad defensively.

After this year it's more challeging to move him because he's an RFA - with no arb rates he'll still be a bargain, but of course if he doesn't improve massively on this season, he won't be much of one regardless. The time to move him is now, while there's an ELC year left.

 

[Oneiro]

Laine doesn't belong in that group. Sure he could be better but he's still generally been a really good producer.

Yeah, I waffled on putting him in that group, he does produce, but I kept him in there because he's still a Liiga forward that hasn't lived up to the hype and has a single trait - his shot - that is arguably better than any one skill Slaf possesses.

 

[JimEIV]

And Smith is not redundent, he's just not good. If Smith could provide a solid 16 minutes 5v5 nobody would be claiming redundancy and he would be a valuable asset.

As it stands right now his skating is preventing from being a regular.

 

[SpitfireG]

Blue Jackets GM is in dance with Fitz for 2nd pick. Columbus hold two picks 6th and 12th and looking for moving up.
That possibility is high due to the 1OA Habs decision, could possibly pass on Wright in favor of Slafkovsky... In this case it brings up an extremely intriguing entertaining draft scenario with pick up and trades prior and during the draft

 

[devilsblood]

My guess is they take Slafkovsky. He’s a talented multi-dimensional forward not a semi-skilled big lug which seems to be the main criticism he faces.

It's the big man anti bias.

And Smith is not redundent, he's just not good. If Smith could provide a solid 16 minutes 5v5 nobody would be claiming redundancy and he would be a valuable asset.

As it stands right now his skating is preventing from being a regular.

Ideally though you want a guy like him to play on the PP. Or a guy like OK to play on the penalty kill.

I still hold out hope he can be a Butcher+ type player. And Butcher was a weapon with the right partner in the right situations.

 

[devilsblood]

Blue Jackets GM is in dance with Fitz for 2nd pick. Columbus hold two pick 6th and 12th, to move up.
That possibility is high true due to the uncertainty at the number-one slot. Hubs could possibly pass on Wright in favor of Slafkovsky. In this case it brings up an extremely intriguing entertaining scenario to make this draft one of the more memorable with pick up and trades prior and during the draft

I make that deal.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Blue Jackets GM is in dance with Fitz for 2nd pick. Columbus hold two pick 6th and 12th, to move up.
That possibility is high true due to the uncertainty at the number-one slot. Hubs could possibly pass on Wright in favor of Slafkovsky. In this case it brings up an extremely intriguing entertaining scenario to make this draft one of the more memorable with pick up and trades prior and during the draft

Where are you getting this from?

As I've said, I would be okay moving #2 for #6 and #12 if there was a deal in place to move 12 (and whatever else) for one of the rumored young wingers available

being able to pick at 6 AND ALSO add another young talented forward would be a haul...Probably not realistic though.

 

[MauDevils]

Ty Smith actually has decent lateral movement. But his North/South skating is just not acceptable for a small defenseman in the NHL.

In year one he used his lateral movement to dance the blue line. His sophomore year he was just a turnover machine when he tried it. His only use would be the PP, but between Damon and Dougie we have much better options for that.

 

[RSeen]

I don't know if you know this but Ty Smith's skating was actually one of his strengths in predraft scouting.

"Elite skating defender whose upside is not far off from the top defenders in the 2018 class" ISS Hockey 2017

"Smith is an excellent skater. He can rush the puck up the ice, or pinch in at the blue line and still cover up his spot defensively. He has excellent speed in both directions. His acceleration is elite, as he reaches top speed in just one or two strides." LWOS

"Smaller, faster players are becoming more common on the blue line, and Smith fits the mold of how future NHLers are trending." - NJ.com

"LD T. Smith while Dahlin is far-and-away the class of the class of 2018, not much separates Hughes/Boqvist/Smith. They are all undersized, extremely fast, extremely smart, extremely skilled. One of my favorite prospects in this draft. Although he is one of many super-fast, offensive-minded and undersized defensemen in this draft, he is also outstanding defensively. He has elite vision and intelligence, and he is as competitive as any player available. Reminds me a lot of a young Duncan Keith."
- @StevenToddIves

Etc..

He's not a Hughes brother, but he's definitely not Will Butcher either.

His speed is a serious issue. You can't be weak defensively and not have speed.

I don't know if he has just somehow regressed in skating, but its definitely not close to elite.

 

[ninetyeight]

Those scouting reports were simply unequivocally wrong.

You can also go back and find the many "Larsson is an excellent skater" scouting reports too. Which were equally as wrong.

It could be injuries or maybe lack of hockey iq. Not being confident enough in your decisions, taking too long to process things. Possibly lack of compete level, giving 80% effort etc. It's pretty weird to have tons of scouts and media watch a player and declare him as fast great (even elite) skater if he wasn't.

Though it's this type of cases that make me question prospect scouting reports. Almost everyone is a surething NHL star and the word elite is being thrown around pretty loosely. In reality there isn't that much top6/top4 NHL talent in the entire draft.

 

[Eggtimer]

I don't know if you know this but Ty Smith's skating was actually one of his strengths in predraft scouting.

"Elite skating defender whose upside is not far off from the top defenders in the 2018 class" ISS Hockey 2017

"Smith is an excellent skater. He can rush the puck up the ice, or pinch in at the blue line and still cover up his spot defensively. He has excellent speed in both directions. His acceleration is elite, as he reaches top speed in just one or two strides." LWOS

"Smaller, faster players are becoming more common on the blue line, and Smith fits the mold of how future NHLers are trending." - NJ.com

"LD T. Smith while Dahlin is far-and-away the class of the class of 2018, not much separates Hughes/Boqvist/Smith. They are all undersized, extremely fast, extremely smart, extremely skilled. One of my favorite prospects in this draft. Although he is one of many super-fast, offensive-minded and undersized defensemen in this draft, he is also outstanding defensively. He has elite vision and intelligence, and he is as competitive as any player available. Reminds me a lot of a young Duncan Keith."
- @StevenToddIves

Etc..

He's not a Hughes brother, but he's definitely not Will Butcher either.

I agree to disagree about his skating . He had good edge work but his first step and speed is terrible . Maybe he had “good” skating in Jr. but in the NHL he looks a step behind and lacks speed . Just my opinion . Watching him skate , I would never say his speed is a positive attribute .

 

[JimEIV]

It could be injuries or maybe lack of hockey iq. Not being confident enough in your decisions, taking too long to process things. Possibly lack of compete level, giving 80% effort etc. It's pretty weird to have tons of scouts and media watch a player and declare him as fast great (even elite) skater if he wasn't.

Though it's this type of cases that make me question prospect scouting reports. Almost everyone is a surething NHL star and the word elite is being thrown around pretty loosely. In reality there isn't that much top6/top4 NHL talent in the entire draft.

It actually happens all the time. Go find Larsson scouting reports "smooth skating", "excellent skater"....tons of it. It was simply wrong.

So many scouting reports I've seen over the years will say a poor skater is good... most often usually "for a big man"

Scouts have a long history of missing skating issues I don't know why...I saw Dylan McIlrath one game at Traverse City and a made small comment here(main board) that "that kid can't skate"...out flew all the scouting quotes "moves well for a big man", "powerful stride"....no, those reports were all wrong.

If I really sit down and think about it I bet I find a dozen examples of obviously poor skaters with scouts saying how good they skate predraft...I think it's largely an effect of watching the players against mostly other poor skaters in lower leagues and never seeing the deficiencies until the player is tested against better players.