Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason edition

[MadDevil]

Speculation

Vancouver wowser.

Demko for the 2OA.

I have been against every 2OA trade, but this one would put the Devils on the road to bigger and better things!

Can't believe JR even entertains that long enough to even think about it.

Hmmm...trading a high pick for a goalie from Vancouver...this seems familiar...

 

[SKNJD9]

Speculation

Vancouver wowser.

Demko for the 2OA.

I have been against every 2OA trade, but this one would put the Devils on the road to bigger and better things!

Can't believe JR even entertains that long enough to even think about it.

Can't see why Van does that...they're re-tooling not blowing it up

 

[NJDevs26]

I made the argument that faceoffs are a skill and not meaningless. To say they are meaningless or split some dumb hair with 'nearly meaningless' is a baseless argument. On the PP, the Lightning just had 40 s straight of attack time bc they won the faceoff. They lost a second one and chased for twenty seconds. Thanks for your brilliant analysis that FOGOs don't exist. No one claimed they did or should.
Winning a draw is a skill that can win a game in the right situation. You boys don't have a counter for that argument so keep throwing up strawmen and arguing something else instead.

You keep comparing faceoffs to actual scoring plays in basketball.

No it isn't 'meaningless'...it also isn't anywhere near as meaningful as even a free throw in basketball let alone a three-pointer.

 

[billingtons ghost]

You keep comparing faceoffs to actual scoring plays in basketball.

No it isn't 'meaningless'...it also isn't anywhere near as meaningful as even a free throw in basketball let alone a three-pointer.

Thank you for agreeing with that fact. All my apologies for making bad analogies comparing to
A skill where a clutch player in a clutch spot can make a big difference in a game even if percentage-wise a team may not win the statistics battle.

Oh and look, right off the draw, Vatrano scores. "One thing you don't want to do is lose the draw clean ' @Captain3rdLine @Triumph @Zajacs Bowl Cut

 

[Captain3rdLine]

The one good argument is: faceoffs aren't meaningless. For all your bitching, not one person has been able to review that. Just lots of hands waving and name calling.

You haven’t actually done anything to back that up. All you’ve done is make weird basketball comparisons. You’ve been handed numbers and have been given very good explanations on exactly why they have very little effect on the outcome of the game but you’ve chosen to ignore those comparisons and come back with basketball comparisons.

 

[bossram]

^this exactly.

My season long, non situational stats say faceoffs are meaningless because 52% isn't that much bigger than 48%. This makes @bossram smarter than every coach in every playoff game ever played, who has attempted to get a good faceoff guy in the dot and every announcer who takes note of this fact and every player who practices the skill to get better. It must be that everyone in hockey has confirmation bias.

I didn't say they were the most critical part of the game, I just said they aren't meaningless.

Do the best free throw shooting teams always win the NBA title? No. Is free throw shooting meaningless too, then?

There are minor skills that can help teams win games.

Again, you're arguing things I've literally not said. I never said, "don't use your good faceoffs guys". I literally said the opposite. You're the one constructing a strawman at every turn. I'm saying in totality, that the net benefit of faceoff ability is very, very small. So small, that factoring them into player analysis and roster construction is essentially pointless.

Your NBA examples have made no sense. Maybe just lay off them my dude.

Now you're using another logical fallacy - appeal to authority. Just because coaches do something, doesn't always mean it is the best decision. Coaches used to run 3F2D PP schemes because they thought it was the best at the time. Now, with more information and an evolving game, they don't do that because we know it's inefficient. Coaches used to wait to pull the goalie until there was only a minute left when trailing. They're way more aggressive pulling now, because it's a better decision. Coaches weren't always right about everything. I'm not saying they're wrong about putting your good faceoff players out for key draws - I would do that too. I'm saying your line of argument is illogical and doesn't hold any water. Come back with some legitimate arguments and facts.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Again, you're arguing things I've literally not said. I never said, "don't use your good faceoffs guys". I literally said the opposite. You're the one constructing a strawman at every turn. I'm saying in totality, that the net benefit of faceoff ability is very, very small. So small, that factoring them into player analysis and roster construction is essentially pointless.

Your NBA examples have made no sense. Maybe just lay off them my dude.

Now you're using another logical fallacy - appeal to authority. Just because coaches do something, doesn't always mean it is the best decision. Coaches used to run 3F2D PP schemes because they thought it was the best at the time. Now, with more information and an evolving game, they don't do that because we know it's inefficient. Coaches used to wait to pull the goalie until there was only a minute left when trailing. They're way more aggressive pulling now, because it's a better decision. Coaches weren't always right about everything. I'm not saying they're wrong about putting your good faceoff players out for key draws - I would do that too. I'm saying your line of argument is illogical and doesn't hold any water. Come back with some legitimate arguments and facts.

Fact: Vatrano scores to tie a game the Rangers had no business being in bc Tampa lost a draw clean.
Don't come back with your 'near meaningless' bullshit, my dude. It just doesn't match reality.

 

[billingtons ghost]

You haven’t actually done anything to back that up. All you’ve done is make weird basketball comparisons. You’ve been handed numbers and have been given very good explanations on exactly why they have very little effect on the outcome of the game but you’ve chosen to ignore those comparisons and come back with basketball comparisons.

So awesome how you can keep this up after Vatrano scores off a clean draw win, and Vas has to make another save after Tampa loses another big draw with seconds left.
Somehow it's almost like your entire authority for your opinion rests in numbers, so much so that with two screaming examples in front of your face, you look away. Turn on the TV bro. I'm sure you can see the Vatrano goal of you were busy looking up percentages instead of watching the game.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

So awesome how you can keep this up after Vatrano scores off a clean draw win, and Vas has to make another save after Tampa loses another big draw with seconds left.
Somehow it's almost like your entire authority for your opinion rests in numbers, so much so that with two screaming examples in front of your face, you look away. Turn on the TV bro. I'm sure you can see the Vatrano goal of you were busy looking up percentages instead of watching the game.

Lol. Someone scores off a draw and you think that proves your point. Sure, if that makes you happy.

 

[devilsfan35]

I hope we offer sheet kakko

 

[Forge]

Lol I love this account right now

 

[Devils731]

Lol. Someone scores off a draw and you think that proves your point. Sure, if that makes you happy.

Rangers won 58% of the faceoffs tonight but they somehow lost despite 16% better in this ultra important category.

Of course 1 game (or 1 play!) is a silly thing to base a team building philosophy off of anyway.

 

[MadDevil]

Fact: Vatrano scores to tie a game the Rangers had no business being in bc Tampa lost a draw clean.
Don't come back with your 'near meaningless' bullshit, my dude. It just doesn't match reality.

Fact: Tampa, trying to hold on and win, lost a faceoff late in the game and still won.

For every example you can find of a faceoff leading directly to a goal there are probably dozens or hundreds where it didn't make any difference. If you want to say they aren't completely meaningless, sure I'd agree with that. But if something only happens rarely, how important is it generally? You're basically arguing that something that happens like 10% (I'm just using this as a general example) of the time is more important than it probably actually is.

 

[Devilsfan92]

Always like Lemaire returning as a coach

[Yt][/yt]

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Fact: Vatrano scores to tie a game the Rangers had no business being in bc Tampa lost a draw clean.
Don't come back with your 'near meaningless' bullshit, my dude. It just doesn't match reality.

It came on a powerplay which I literally said earlier is when one of the two situations where it possession is insanely important, lmao.

 

[bossram]

Fact: Vatrano scores to tie a game the Rangers had no business being in bc Tampa lost a draw clean.
Don't come back with your 'near meaningless' bullshit, my dude. It just doesn't match reality.

That's way more to do with a guy named Igor Shesterkin. Talk about watching the game lmao.

I saw Stamkos skate by Shesterkin's glove, have the puck rattle off his knee/shin, and then go in the net. Would you say deflecting pucks in the net with your shin is an important skill?

Copp won the faceoff to Vatrano. Copp is 42.6% on faceoffs in the playoffs. This kinda pokes a hole in your argument huh? It wasn't their key faceoff guy that won them a key faceoff. It was someone who's pretty bad at them. It's just random that he won the faceoff - he's not reliable a faceoff ace. And then the Rangers scored. So if faceoffs are so random that poor faceoff guys can make these moments happen, why would you prioritize faceoff ability?

Alternatively, Cirelli is obviously Cooper's #1 choice as his defensive matchup center. He's also 44% on faceoffs in the playoffs. How is Tampa advancing to the Cup FInal if their defensive ace is so bad on faceoffs? Isn't he losing all these key moments?

Or maybe, in totality, the impact just isn't big at all.

 

[bossram]

I hope we offer sheet kakko

I wish the Devils could offer sheet all of Kakko, Puljujarvi, and Liljegren.

 

[FooteBahl]

I hope we offer sheet kakko

4.2 million is only a second round pick…f*** it, why not?

 

[Patrik26]

I wish the Devils could offer sheet all of Kakko, Puljujarvi, and Liljegren.

Kakko. I like it.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Fact: Tampa, trying to hold on and win, lost a faceoff late in the game and still won.

For every example you can find of a faceoff leading directly to a goal there are probably dozens or hundreds where it didn't make any difference. If you want to say they aren't completely meaningless, sure I'd agree with that. But if something only happens rarely, how important is it generally? You're basically arguing that something that happens like 10% (I'm just using this as a general example) of the time is more important than it probably actually is.

See, please don't confuse my comments to somehow saying that FO% stats are meaningful. They aren't except maybe to display who might be better in a clutch spot.

I don't get your logic. There are plenty of examples of things that gain outsized importance because of situations. Where a single event could make or break a game or season.

Fact: Tampa lost the faceoff and instead of getting a free shot at an empty net or clearing the zone, Vas was forced to make saves. It was an important win for Copp. Also, none of it would matter if Vatrano doesn't score off of a clean Face off win. Is that somehow your def of meaningless?

I don't get the pushback. Winning a clutch faceoff matters. Winning a faceoff to start a game at center ice doesn't, so clearly FO% is a shit stat but maybe if you tallied PP, PK, and last five minutes of a period or D zone when ahead ozone when behind, you could maybe come up with a metric of clutch wins to make start heads happy.

I mean, sorry that the world and the game of hockey has outliers of 'how critical' something is.

 

[My3Sons]

For those listing heights and weights, please note that listed measurements can be outdated. Hischier may be listed at 175 in some spots and that corresponds to his rookie interview where he said he showed up to camp at 178 but in the past Worlds he was listed somewhere by the Swiss team at 195 which makes more sense at this point. I’m sure other young players add a few pounds as they mature from 18-23 or so.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Good enough to get scratched in an elimination game.

I can't express how much it please me to watch Laf get his face caved in then Kakko being scratched the next game.

Petty? Bitter? I've been called worse.

 

[billingtons ghost]

That's way more to do with a guy named Igor Shesterkin. Talk about watching the game lmao.

I saw Stamkos skate by Shesterkin's glove, have the puck rattle off his knee/shin, and then go in the net. Would you say deflecting pucks in the net with your shin is an important skill?

Copp won the faceoff to Vatrano. Copp is 42.6% on faceoffs in the playoffs. This kinda pokes a hole in your argument huh? It wasn't their key faceoff guy that won them a key faceoff. It was someone who's pretty bad at them. It's just random that he won the faceoff - he's not reliable a faceoff ace. And then the Rangers scored. So if faceoffs are so random that poor faceoff guys can make these moments happen, why would you prioritize faceoff ability?

Alternatively, Cirelli is obviously Cooper's #1 choice as his defensive matchup center. He's also 44% on faceoffs in the playoffs. How is Tampa advancing to the Cup FInal if their defensive ace is so bad on faceoffs? Isn't he losing all these key moments?

Or maybe, in totality, the impact just isn't big at all.

Uh, no bc I said FO% is a shit stat a bunch of times and during the game Ray Ferraro went into detail about which side the faceoff was on would matter as to who would take it, and that having Copp available to take faceoffs was big bc it'd allow Zib, a better fo guy to be a shooter.

FO% is stupid bc a faceoff at center ice counts the same as one on the PK or PP or with 1minute left.

The impact was that the Rangers tied the game at one with the Vatrano goal. Kinda pokes holes in your argument.

 

[Bleedred]

Speculation

Vancouver wowser.

Demko for the 2OA.

I have been against every 2OA trade, but this one would put the Devils on the road to bigger and better things!

Can't believe JR even entertains that long enough to even think about it.

I think Demko for a 7th or 8th overall pick would be fine, especially with how hard and rare particularly good goalies are to come by the last few years, but not for the 2nd overall.

I wound say Vasilevskiy and Shesterkin would be worth the 2nd overall (as well as even more) and Hellebuyck comes close but not quite there, but that’s about it.

 

[Bad Goalie]

I think Demko for a 7th or 8th overall pick would be fine, especially with how hard and rare particularly good goalies are to come by the last few years, but not for the 2nd overall.

I wound say Vasilevskiy and Shesterkin would be worth the 2nd overall (as well as even more) and Hellebuyck comes close but not quite there, but that’s about it.

Agree to disagree. I have watched every game that kid played from his first game in Utica until this season. He has given one of the worst NHL teams since he got there a chance to win in nearly every game he's played since he got there. He is the real deal and no other goalie the Devils end up with next season will be as good.