Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason edition

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

You're on your own, pal. There's no talking to someone who has not actually seen the players, and is just going on player cards and heresy.

Then who's Slafkovsky comp then? I gave two guys in Kakko and Rantanen, the former clearly has an obvious bias against him since he's a Ranger.

 

[glenwo2]

Anyone saying Cat isn't worth the 2nd ovr is a bit out to lunch

Well that Ham Sandwich did taste pretty good.

 

[Derps]

BTW, what "boggles the mind" is that some of us were so gung-ho about the #2 pick and now all of a sudden think we can get DeBrincat for basically a song-and-a-dance here.

And he's not really worth the 2nd OA pick (in my own opinion, of course).

Pastrnak would be, though.



Dammit...yeah.. I meant Chicago.

And I feel that Pastrnak is better than Cat but that's just one person's opinion over the others.

None of us will convince the other nor should we attempt to do so.

I just want the draft to arrive and for the Devils to pick Slaf so we can move on.

I would trade 2 for Pastrnak, also. There are maybe 3 players legitimately available that I would trade 2 for. Cat, Pastrnak, and Tkachuk.

And again, if they don't move it, Im cool with it. Grabbing another player with high upside is a good thing. But this team is ready to take massive steps forward, and I think they need another elite forward to do it (its not the ONLY thing, but its a necessary thing imo). I dont want to wait 3 years for that type of player.

 

[NJDevs26]

Then who's Slafkovsky comp then? I gave two guys in Kakko and Rantanen, the former clearly has an obvious bias against him since he's a Ranger.

Zacha if you buy the cynics.

Look I get the cynicism...Zacha was the need pick being a power forward, the people's choice in Barzal wound up being better. McLeod was the organizational style pick and the people's choice in Chychrun wound up being better. Holtz was the 'need' pick being a goalscorer and so far he's been meeeh, certainly on a slower track than Mercer. But you can literally do this to yourself in just about any draft...irony of all ironies Lou and Conte picked the small, skill guys everyone here should have fawned over in Tedenby and Josefson, how did that work out?

You can just as easily get burned picking the skill guys and the defensemen as you can picking the big forwards. It's a canard to act like if a guy fills a role, he has to be a mistake because the best player is always at a position you don't need, or that mistakes ONLY get made with those type of players and not with the supposed skill guys.

Plus if Fitz is really gonna use 2OA on a supposed need above picking the best player then it'd be a helluva lot easier to just trade the pick for an actual NHL producer. I don't really buy that any NHL GM worth his salt ever 'drafts for need' with a first-round pick. Style of play sure, but not purely for positional need.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

I would trade 2 for Pastrnak, also. There are maybe 3 players legitimately available that I would trade 2 for. Cat, Pastrnak, and Tkachuk.

And again, if they don't move it, Im cool with it. Grabbing another player with high upside is a good thing. But this team is ready to take massive steps forward, and I think they need another elite forward to do it (its not the ONLY thing, but its a necessary thing imo). I dont want to wait 3 years for that type of player.

Pastrnak and Tkachuk aren’t legitimately available.
The problem really problem with Debrincat is that is that he’s a final year RFA with a 9M dollar qualifying offer. So I wouldn’t even consider it unless we’re certain we can secure him long-term.
He could very easily just take his big qualifying offer and then hope to have a really good year alongside Jack Hughes and then go to whatever team he wants or to the highest bidder in a year.

If we were confident that we could sign him long-term than I still think it’s a very fair debate to have as to whether we should or whether it would be worth it.

 

[StevenToddIves]

exactly - the draft is a bit of a crap shoot. Always was and always will be. Except in the rare case of a McDavid type player, you are playing odds and predictions. More often than not, five years down the road the person you thought was the best turns out not to have been so. Somebody else was.

The top 3-5 picks of the draft are actually the polar opposite of a crap shoot.

The reason players who are picked so high are picked so high is because they are not only the *best* players, but also because they are the furthest along the development curve.

Shane Wright is already capable of playing a bottom 6 C role at the professional level. Juraj Slafkovsky already made mincemeat of a WC Canada blueline which would have been superior to this year's NJ Devils blueline (both had Severson and Graves). Simon Nemec broke record after record in a lesser men's league in Slovakia, but still as the youngest defenseman in the league. "Busting" for these guys would simply mean they'll be good NHL players but not bona fide superstars. We already know this. It would take literally a miracle of bad circumstance for any of these guys not to have good NHL careers.

The Devils have the #2 overall pick in the closest battle for #1 overall since Dahlin and Svechnikov in 2018. I would say Wright and Slafkovsky are also comparable in talent to Dahlin/Svechnikov. Why would NJ give up a chance at that sort of talent to add to an age-appropriate core? There's no crap shoot, there's just adding a very likely future superstar to an already-elite core.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Zacha if you buy the cynics.

Look I get the cynicism...Zacha was the need pick being a power forward, the people's choice in Barzal wound up being better. McLeod was the organizational style pick and the people's choice in Chychrun wound up being better. Holtz was the 'need' pick being a goalscorer and so far he's been meeeh, certainly on a slower track than Mercer. But you can literally do this to yourself in just about any draft...irony of all ironies Lou and Conte picked the small, skill guys everyone here should have fawned over in Tedenby and Josefson, how did that work out?

You can just as easily get burned picking the skill guys and the defensemen as you can picking the big forwards. It's a canard to act like if a guy fills a role, he has to be a mistake because the best player is always at a position you don't need, or that mistakes ONLY get made with those type of players and not with the supposed skill guys.

Plus if Fitz is really gonna use 2OA on a need above 'picking the best player' then it'd be a helluva lot easier to just trade the pick for an actual NHL producer.

Zacha was a way better skater coming out in 2015, Slaf is way better defensively + better IQ. And I don't disagree. I wanted Barzal in 2015, Chycurun or Jost in 2016, I wanted Perfetti or Rossi in 2020 with our first pick. If 2/3 of. our picks from 2020 are good whether it's Mukamadullin or Holtz who makes the second one with Mercer being good, I'll be content.

 

[StevenToddIves]

There were Devils fans who wanted Kakko over Hughes because of the size v skill argument that year, some deja vu with Cooley v Slaf, huh? And Hughes + Kakko were the unanimous 1+2 that year, not sure where you're getting this random Kakko hatred from lol.

It was not close between Hughes and Kakko. There was at least one full tier between them. Similarly, comparing Hughes to Cooley is just unfair to Cooley -- as great as Cooley is in skating/puckhandling/playmaking/IQ, Hughes simply blows him away in all 4 categories. Hughes will go down as the best #1 overall pick between Matthews and Bedard.

 

[Nubmer6]

Because we apparently can't have nice things. It just isn't possible a need pick can possibly also be the best pick.

Like Ty Smith was?

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

It was not close between Hughes and Kakko. There was at least one full tier between them. Similarly, comparing Hughes to Cooley is just unfair to Cooley -- as great as Cooley is in skating/puckhandling/playmaking/IQ, Hughes simply blows him away in all 4 categories. Hughes will go down as the best #1 overall pick between Matthews and Bedard.

Who's comparing them? Hughes is obviously the better prospect v Kakko, I'm just saying this franchise has burned in the past before with the size v skill thing and it could arguably bite them again with Cooley v Slaf. You can't just automatically pencil guys in based on player builds was my point.

 

[Forge]

If we get debrincat for two, I'm fine with it. I'd be curious how it fits given the current team build, but so long as he's willing to lock up with the team, you can put that pick to much, much worse use

 

[StevenToddIves]

Then who's Slafkovsky comp then? I gave two guys in Kakko and Rantanen, the former clearly has an obvious bias against him since he's a Ranger.

Slafkovsky is kind of a unicorn, I don't know where I'd put the comparison. He's the first 6'4-220 forward I've seen since Jagr who offered the best combination of puckhandling/playmaking in the entire draft class, and he's also elite in hockey IQ. He's tremendous along the boards and down low, and I think we saw in the WC what an incredible ability he has as a net-front presence to create rebounds, screens and deflections. His shot has improved remarkably over the past year and a half where I think this might have the potential to develop into yet another near-elite tool. His skating is excellent for any size, but rare for a 6'4 player of his powerful physique.

Stylistically, I don't like comparing Kakko to Rantanen or Slafkovsky, because Kakko is more north/south and likes to play downhill, while both Rantanen and Slafkovsky are more versatile, liking to mix up a finesse east/west game with the situational ability to power to the interior. This is why I bring up Jagr -- while by no means would I compare anyone to the great #68, Slafkovsky does offer the best combination of puck protection/hands I've seen since perhaps Jagr. If the opposition gets caught with the wrong defense match-up against him, Slafkovsky can just seemingly play "keep away" at will while he waits for a lane to open.

I've also seen Slafkovsky compared to Svechnikov, but I don't like it because Svechnikov is more aggressive, both physically and in his general shoot-first mindset. Slafkovsky's mix of vision and wing-span sometimes makes me think "young Joe Thornton, but on the wing" but I'm not sure that encapsulates it well, either.

So, to answer your question, I won't answer your question. Slafkovsky is truly a unique talent. But what's best about him is that his ability to open up space and draw defenders down low will serve as the absolutely perfect compliment to Hughes and Bratt, who are as good as any NHL tandem at utilizing space outside the circles and up high. It's kind of a match made in heaven... no pun intended because this is, after all, the Devils.

Like Ty Smith was?

Your friendly neighborhood draft writer STI pimped all year long for K'Andre Miller, as you might recall.

 

[StevenToddIves]

Who's comparing them? Hughes is obviously the better prospect v Kakko, I'm just saying this franchise has burned in the past before with the size v skill thing and it could arguably bite them again with Cooley v Slaf. You can't just automatically pencil guys in based on player builds was my point.

Slafkovsky is more skilled than Cooley. Cooley is faster and plays center. That's the choice. It's not size v. skill because Slafkovsky is the superior puck handler and playmaker. I'd say they are about even in hockey sense, both elite. Two great players.

But if you're looking for the skill guy at #2 overall, the pick is Slafkovsky.

 

[OmNomNom]

DeBrincat not being worth the 2OA is one helluva a take

i'm just sayin he could be had for less

 

[Guttersniped]

Fiala's an interesting one because teams in that position never get full value but there does seem to be a few interested parties which could drive up the price

I don’t know, there’s a bunch of forwards on the market and not a lot of teams with cap space. I don’t hear about a lot of buyers and I hear a lot about sellers. A bunch of teams are at least doing a soft rebuild with 2023 draft looking crazy.

Fiala asked for a lot of money from the Wild, which means you’re probably looking at a shorter deal to keep the AAV down.

I’m not sure how this market shakes out. Vancouver is becoming a bit ridiculous, there are rumors about half their roster.

 

[Hisch13r]

i'm just sayin he could be had for less

I doubt he could. I highly doubt it could even be 2 straight up so less than 2 seems impossible

I don’t know, there’s a bunch of forwards on the market and not a lot of teams with cap space. I don’t hear about a lot of buyers and I hear a lot about sellers. A bunch of teams are at least doing a soft rebuild with 2023 draft looking crazy.

Fiala asked for a lot of money from the Wild, which means you’re probably looking at a shorter deal to keep the AAV down.

I’m not sure how this market shakes out. Vancouver is becoming a bit ridiculous, there are rumors about half their roster.

Latest rumor is Rutherford hates the room and wants to blow it up. I’d love if they gives us maximum chaos and multiple valuable pieces are moved

 

[JimEIV]

Slafkovsky and Kakko are the exact same stylistically like Jack Hughes and Nico Hischier are the exact same stylistically.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

DeBrincat not being worth the 2OA is one helluva a take

It’s the correct take, considering that we will likely end up with a really good player at #2OA and you could use the cap space you’d have to spend on DeBrincat after next year on a better albeit older player in Gaudreau. Then you add in the fact that you very well could get most of what DeBrincat brings with Holtz. Hell, overpaying for Malkin on a three or four year deal and keeping #2OA is better than DeBrincat.

Trading #2OA for anything other than Matthew Tkachuk (if we’re talking about players that are plausibly available) would be really dumb.

 

[My3Sons]

For Father's Day my wife and kids got me a Corgi puppy. May I introduce Pavel.View attachment 557850

Is he your first dog? He’s adorable.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

It’s the correct take, considering that we will likely end up with a really good player at #2OA and you could use the cap space you’d have to spend on DeBrincat after next year on a better albeit older player in Gaudreau. Then you add in the fact that you very well could get most of what DeBrincat brings with Holtz. Hell, overpaying for Malkin on a three or four year deal and keeping #2OA is better than DeBrincat.

Trading #2OA for anything other than Matthew Tkachuk (if we’re talking about players that are plausibly available) would be really dumb.

You're losing Holtz in Matthew Tkachuk trade too, if you think we're getting him for just the second overall then lol.

 

[None Shall Pass]

DeBrincat in a vacuum is absolutely worth the 2OA.

This team, specifically, should not be trading the 2OA for DeBrincat. Draft a big dude in Slaf instead.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

You're losing Holtz in Matthew Tkachuk trade too, if you think we're getting him for just the second overall then lol.

Probably. He’s also a lot better than DeBrincat and is exactly the type of player the Devils need.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Probably. He’s also a lot better than DeBrincat and is exactly the type of player the Devils need.

How is DeBrincat + Holtz (if he's not traded to Chicago in a DeBrincat trade) better than Tkachuk without Holtz better for NJ?

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Probably. He’s also a lot better than DeBrincat and is exactly the type of player the Devils need.

I’d also feel a little more comfortable in locking him up long-term given that Fitzy is his cousin. Fitzy wouldn’t trade for him without having talked to him and being confident that he would want to play and sign in NJ long-term.
And given they are family I think it would be a lot less likely that he would screw the Devils/Fitzy and jump ship in a year. I could be wrong and reading to much into that because it is a business but being family would have to mean something.

He is also a better player and a much better fit for what we need. I would take Tkachuk over Debrincat + Holtz any day of the week.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

How is DeBrincat + Holtz (if he's not traded to Chicago in a DeBrincat trade) better than Tkachuk without Holtz better for NJ?

Because Tkachuk is a better player and much better fit.
And I would feel more comfortable in locking him up long-term as explained above.

We shouldn’t be trading for any of these guys though without being certain there will be a long-term extension.