Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023-24 season part II

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HBK27

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Then the suspension will be lifted? :dunno:

I mean that's why I changed it to indefinite.

The fact is that the NHL has to do something here to show it does not tolerate this, at least from an image standpoint.

The players have zero involvement with the teams moving forward. Come July 1st they won't even be team property anymore either.

I mean, if that empty gesture is going to make you feel better...

I'm also no lawyer, but I wonder if some type of ban might open the NHL up to lawsuits as well from these players if they're found not guilty for lost wages the next couple seasons while their waiting for the court date.

Much easier all around to let their contracts expire in a few months.
 

jkrdevil

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Apr 24, 2006
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So it sounds like "paid leave" will take them all to the end of their contracts on June 30. Then McLeod will probably just not be offered anything as an RFA, become a UFA, then will be gone from the organization.

I also remember hearing somewhere that the NHL could not suspend the players without charges... and there's about to be charges.... so we'll see what the league does.

IF they are allowed to leave the country before the trial... I would imagine these guys end up playing in Russia.
They are on paid leave now, but I think the CBA grants Bettman the ability to suspend them without pay once they are formally charged. The Athletic had a good article on the next steps.

Teams may also be able to formally terminate their contracts as well at that point. Either for moral reasons, or the simple fact that they won’t be able to fulfill their contractual obligations.
 
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My3Sons

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I'm skeptical we will ever learn what went on between NJ and McLeod or Foote. We will likely never learn what advice from any lawyers Fitz may have been privy to. The type of lawyer consulted may even make a difference. I could easily see a corporate lawyer offering different advice than a criminal lawyer for example. Maybe a Canadian team faces more inquiry but it's unlikely the Devils will given the lack of overall interest by the sports media. It's not like there has been much inquiry into NFL Teams when their players commit crimes I'd expect even less in hockey.
 

Bleedred

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f*** them both.

I still dont understand how stupid you need to be to bring in a dime a dozen dman like Foote when I bet the whole league knew who the alleged 5 or 8 players were. It was just GMs hoping that they wouldnt be charged.

I dont think Fitz needs to be fired or anything for this but he should be questioned for his thought process. You already put the franchise in bad light by bringing back one of the players and you go and bring in a totally new player and garbage at that.

I understand that NHL is a business and no matter how much we love or hate NHL executives, many of them do whatever it takes to win. So I'm not surprised about McLeod. But what the f*** does Cal Foote have to do with any kind of winning in this league? I certainly hope it was worth the risk of this f***ing shitstorm.
IMG_2035.jpeg

That’s a two time cup winner you’re talking here! Some show respect!

Didn’t you see all the games he played in both of those cup runs? All zero of them?
 

SteveCangialosi123

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Feb 17, 2012
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your reading comprehension needs a lot of work if you think that's what i was talking about. Please go and re-read what I said and what I replied to from the top.
No, it doesn’t. Your attempt at a snide remark didn’t work. The implication was that Cal Foote’s deal expiring at the end of the year has to do with his legal situation and not the fact that he’s a shitty AHL defenseman.

All star Michael McLeod and his 4 goals last year didn’t exactly earn a huge extension disregarding the legal stuff either. It’s a grand conspiracy, I guess.
 

Wisp

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Nov 14, 2010
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No, it doesn’t. Your attempt at a snide remark didn’t work. The implication was that Cal Foote’s deal expiring at the end of the year has to do with his legal situation and not the fact that he’s a shitty AHL defenseman.

All star Michael McLeod and his 4 goals last year didn’t exactly earn a huge extension disregarding the legal stuff either. It’s a grand conspiracy, I guess.
👍

i'm not going to engage with someone taking me willfully out of context, bye
 

HBK27

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Northern NJ
The victim already settled the civil case, so the crown must have some new evidence to bring this to criminal court. Or the evidence that already exists is enough and they want to make an example of these shit bags?

I don't know. It's gross and I feel so sorry for the victim.

Why in the ever living f*** did Fitz sign Foote???

I do wonder if we'll ever get an explanation as to why there were charges brought with this investigation but not the original one.

Did new evidence come to light? A more thorough investigation this time around (in which case, that opens up a lot more questions)? Did the high publicity of the case this time around increase the pressure to move forward with charges?
 

glenwo2

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Even if he’s found not guilty, this shows an astonishing lack of judgement. How can you possibly trust this guy to represent your team on and off the ice knowing that he was in that room and didn’t say anything for 5 years?

f*** this guy. Get ready to learn Chinese buddy
There's hockey in China?

You mean "Get ready to learn RUSSIAN buddy"
 

jkrdevil

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Apr 24, 2006
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Miami
The players have zero involvement with the teams moving forward. Come July 1st they won't even be team property anymore either.

I mean, if that empty gesture is going to make you feel better...

I'm also no lawyer, but I wonder if some type of ban might open the NHL up to lawsuits as well from these players if they're found not guilty for lost wages the next couple seasons while their waiting for the court date.

Much easier all around to let their contracts expire in a few months.
I’m not a lawyer either, but I’m going to guess the short answer is no. The CBA enables the commissioner to take action against a player whose conduct damages the leagues reputation. Civil standards are also less than criminal standards, it is a more likely than not standard rather than beyond reasonable doubt. That the players were charged criminally probably means there is enough evidence to say they more likely than not engaged if ruinous behavior.

The question will be about the possible 2-3 other players who may have been involved in some capacity but the evidence isn’t there for criminal charges. The league could potentially issue their own discipline to those players as well based on the league own report and finding.
 
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NjDevsRR

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Yikes, some posters here are vastly uninformed on this matter and really need to see the extensive investigation that went into this which was reported by the fifth estate. Such an eye opening report that it caused law enforcement to reopen this case.

The incident is disgusting. The slush fund created to cover this up and other incidents is worse.
 
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glenwo2

JESPER BRATWURST
Oct 18, 2008
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New Jersey(No Fanz!)
The players have zero involvement with the teams moving forward. Come July 1st they won't even be team property anymore either.

I mean, if that empty gesture is going to make you feel better...

I'm also no lawyer, but I wonder if some type of ban might open the NHL up to lawsuits as well from these players if they're found not guilty for lost wages the next couple seasons while their waiting for the court date.

Much easier all around to let their contracts expire in a few months.
Except that someone already pointed out the league could suspend them if Charges are brought which they are (or will be).

It's not about me "Feeling better" (snark not appreciated).

It's about the league looking out for its own image by doing these empty gestures.
 

glenwo2

JESPER BRATWURST
Oct 18, 2008
52,361
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New Jersey(No Fanz!)
f*** them both.

I still dont understand how stupid you need to be to bring in a dime a dozen dman like Foote when I bet the whole league knew who the alleged 5 or 8 players were. It was just GMs hoping that they wouldnt be charged.

I dont think Fitz needs to be fired or anything for this but he should be questioned for his thought process. You already put the franchise in bad light by bringing back one of the players and you go and bring in a totally new player and garbage at that.

I understand that NHL is a business and no matter how much we love or hate NHL executives, many of them do whatever it takes to win. So I'm not surprised about McLeod. But what the f*** does Cal Foote have to do with any kind of winning in this league? I certainly hope it was worth the risk of this f***ing shitstorm.
Yeah. Fitz got a proverbial black eye out of this, no question.

And that diminishes him considerably as a GM because of the Cal Foote signing.

He better do something to fix this team either this season or the next....
 

HBK27

Registered User
Aug 5, 2005
14,136
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Northern NJ
Except that someone already pointed out the league could suspend them if Charges are brought which they are (or will be).

It's not about me "Feeling better" (snark not appreciated).

It's about the league looking out for its own image by doing these empty gestures.

Sorry - wasn't trying to be snarky and that was uncalled for on my part.

Yeah, the league certainly could suspend them and I wouldn't rule it out. Given the way the players all took a voluntary leave of absence and immediately distanced themselves from the teams as news broke of the pending charges, my theory is that the NHL more or less told them to do so in exchange for being paid out the rest of their contracts (whereas suspensions, voiding contracts could've gotten messy).

I personally don't think that action taken by the league against these players really does anything for their image, but I've been wrong plenty of times before.
 
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jkrdevil

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Sorry - wasn't trying to be snarky and that was uncalled for on my part.

Yeah, the league certainly could suspend them and I wouldn't rule it out. Given the way the players all took a voluntary leave of absence and immediately distanced themselves from the teams as news broke of the pending charges, my theory is that the NHL more or less told them to do so in exchange for being paid out the rest of their contracts (whereas suspensions, voiding contracts could've gotten messy).

I personally don't think that action taken by the league against these players really does anything for their image, but I've been wrong plenty of times before.
They had to take leave because they all have to physically go to London, surrender, be formally arrested, and processed, ect. That requires you to have to leave and not be available to play in games/practice/ect.

They will all be suspended indefinitely by the league without pay. There is no if, and or buts about it.
 
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glenwo2

JESPER BRATWURST
Oct 18, 2008
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I quoted a million messages since Sunday and then decided to just summarize my thoughts in monologue form instead.

Every fan base in the league blames coaching for some flaw in their team. You can look through all the other team forums here and see that plainly. Coaches always get blame for losses and players always get credit for wins, and it's always driven by results rather than how the team actually played.

There's a theory I've seen used in soccer discussion called the 9+2 theory. Essentially, soccer is a weak-link sport because scoring almost comes exclusively from a mistake. Two teams try to force each other to make a mistake over and over again until one screws up and then there is a chance for a goal. Hockey is very similar, but there is more randomness due to the higher difficulty of controlling the puck, the greater chance for rebounds and odd bounces, and the smaller playing surface. That said, goals usually come from scoring chances, which usually come from either a great individual effort by the attacking team, a mistake by the defending team, a lucky bounce, or a combination of all three. Soccer is closer to a chess match and tactics matter more than in hockey, but in both cases it's all about trying to create moments where you are able to catch your opponents making a mistake. Again, hockey has the added variable that more events occur in a game due to a variety of factors

Where 9+2 comes into this is with the personnel. Basically in soccer you have your best 11 players, and then of course you make substitutions at some point but usually the first 60 minutes of the game is played with your best 11. The idea is that you can usually play with 10 of your best 11 + 1 replacement and the drop off shouldn't be too perceptible. Once you get to 9 of your best 11 + 2 replacements, you become noticeably worse. Once you're down to 8+3 or worse, you have to completely shift the way you play the game at a tactical level, usually hamstringing the other players in the process as they have to alter their play to make up for deficiencies, don't get the ball as quickly as they usually would, or whatever else.

To apply this to hockey, you're probably looking at any game where you have to dip outside of your top 13 forwards and top 7 D as a 9+2 scenario, and anything where you go beyond that as 8+3. Once you're there, the effectiveness of your other players is tangibly impacted. Even 5 plays a game that are not executed optimally can be the difference in a 10-possession swing and that can easily add up to multiple goal scoring opportunities lost and multiple more given up.

More bluntly, Hischier is going to perform better when Jack Hughes is in the lineup drawing more matchups and creating more possessions, tilting more ice, tiring out the other team on D and generating more shots. Either of them is going to perform better when they are backed up 3rd and 4th lines that are capable of being dominant and doing the same. Bratt, Mercer, Meier, and Toffoli are all going to perform better when they are all being centered by elite NHLers instead of NHL 3rd/4th liners and AHL callups. Kevin Bahl is going to do better when he's playing a 3rd pairing role like last year instead of munching defensive minutes against the opponent's top lines. Same goes for Hughes and Nemec, they would make fewer mistakes in more sheltered roles. We haven't had that luxury this year. We've had multiple stretches now where we've been down half or all of our top D pair, multiple scoring forwards, and depth forwards as well. You simply can't expect everyone else to not be affected by 5+ callups in the lineup, even when one of those is Nemec. Particularly when so many of those injuries are to the spine of the team in centers and D. My point:

This team was still very good when Nico and Jack were playing. Maybe winning too much off individual talent to some eyes, but that's part of what wins games and why you have talented players in the first place. And that's also considering many people thought Jack wasn;t playing well in that entire stretch.

I've said numerous times that I actually like Ruff's system, even if I don't think they'll win a cup with it. I recognize it requires a lot on the mental side of the game but I truly believe it gives you an edge when done well. It never had a chance in hell of working right with this many replacement players and rookie D. If I have a great criticism of Ruff, it's that he seemingly hasn't simplified things enough to compensate for not having his 10+1 lineup. I know people want to criticize his attitude or the slow starts or whatever, I still maintain a professional athlete needs to get themselves going, there should be vocal leaders in the room that hype up the team more organically than the geriatric coach coming in screaming. But I've always responded much better to calm and steady management rather than rah rah jokers anyway. We can complain about lines and Holtz' usage and all that, but every coach has someone they play less than fans think they should. We've seen that here with the last 3 coaches that all got blamed for an insufficient roster (Hynes was actually bad though).

I just don't see a coach getting fired until we're complete no-shows for 5+ games in a row. Fitz has not given any indication that he makes emotional decisions based on a few games positive or negative. He has more insight than this board into what Ruff is actually doing, how he's working with players and if the players are playing the way they're being asked. I promise you, Fitz is in a better spot and more qualified to evaluate the coaching than anyone posting here. I would probably make a change in the offseason, but I don't have half the insight he does.

It seems like it's a matter of games before we have Hughes and Nosek back. No idea what happened with Haula and why he hasn't been playing center much this year, but if he is back as well, we suddenly have 4 centers that should match up favorably with the opponent's equivalent lines, and we know we have wingers that can be successful. I want to see how much pressure that might take off of the defense and how we look overall at that point. Will having a healthy forward group for essentially the first time all season help the young D, or will they continue to make individual mistakes? That's the big question.

Losing Graves and Severson hurt. You can tell me all you want about how Nemec and Luke are already better than then, and in a vacuum that may well be true, but for all the heat those two took here they both fit this system very well and had veteran savvy that Hughes and Nemec are still developing. They also both ate a bunch of PK minutes, and the lack of good PK D has been an issue all season. It's why Smith got as much run as he has, it's why Nemec is being tasked with it from the jump instead of working his way in, it scrambles the usage up whenever we got to the PK because we can't spread the minutes out as much. It's been a problem. We knew it was a calculated risk going into the season with the youth on D, but we needed Marino and Siegenthaler to play up to their previous level, we needed Hamilton to eat a lot of minutes, and we needed the goalies to not let in every f***ing half decent shot on net. None of those have happened. To me, the youth on D is the greatest individual contributor to the wild inconsistency we've seen this year. Next is the goaltending, then the injuries, then the natural risks of this system, then the bad matchups and excessive minutes played due to injuries.

I just don't think the team is as much bad as they are inconsistent. On aggregate they've still been quite competitive this year, particularly considering who they've been missing. I've said it before and I'll say again, I think you could run the same team back next year and compete for the division again, coaches included. Make a couple smart moves, hopefully upgrade goal and I'm not worried about a thing moving forward.

I spent like 30 minutes typing this instead of working, oy vey.
Sorry to say I'm not going to spend 30 minutes reading this.

Oy vey, Oil of Olay....all day every day. :rolly:
 
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HBK27

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They had to take leave because they all have to physically go to London, surrender, be formally arrested, and processed, ect. That requires you to have to leave and not be available to play in games/practice/ect.

They will all be suspended indefinitely by the league without pay. There is no if, and or buts about it.

I guess we'll have to see - assuming the NHL takes action to suspend them it would occur right after the London Police press conference on the 5th?

There's also this though:

 
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