Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2022-23 season thread part III

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Holtz is going to have to earn more ice time by showing off his fundamentals and his play without the puck. He has to keep his legs moving and show good defensive positioning, both of which he's really struggled with.

Until he shows improvement in those areas there's no reason to move him up in the lineup. You guys are talking about putting him in the 100m dash when he hasn't shown that he can ever crawl at the NHL level.

and what exactly do you expect him to "prove" by playing 5 minutes per night with McLeod?

again its a vicious cycle. I never suggested he should be gifted top 6 time the rest of the year. I just wanted to see him get a few shifts here or there with better players.

 

[Homedresser]

Strength of schedule?

Does anyone really believe that there are easy games for a team coming off a 27 win and 63 point season and drafting #2 overall?

The fact that the Devils are actually winning games is what we've all been waiting for years now...at least that's what I have been waiting for...beating any opponent with frequency is something we haven't been able to accomplish in a very long time.

If this team continues to beat up on the bottom half of the league that is a huge success and the type of improvement we've needed.

Personally I think it's insane to parse our opponents strength coming from the doormat the status that we've occupied for so long. We've been a bottom 5/6 team for the last 4 years and generally a pushover for a decade.... the fact that there is a segment of the league that we now can actually dominate and win games with frequency is the kind of improvement that makes me extremely happy.

well said.

 

[Call Me Al]

and what exactly do you expect him to "prove" by playing 5 minutes per night with McLeod?

again its a vicious cycle. I never suggested he should be gifted top 6 time the rest of the year. I just wanted to see him get a few shifts here or there with better players.

he’s had time on the power play though, and it was painful to watch him hang onto the puck too long and either lose it carrying it up the ice or lose a board battle in the o zone. he had opportunities and hasn’t stepped up. if his only ability is getting open for shots and ripping it then i’d rather shara be up in the top 6 because he can at least play defense and win a board battle

 

[Rhodes 81]

and what exactly do you expect him to "prove" by playing 5 minutes per night with McLeod?

again its a vicious cycle. I never suggested he should be gifted top 6 time the rest of the year. I just wanted to see him get a few shifts here or there with better players.

This is reality for young players on a good team. 2 years ago we could afford to spend half a game giving him a chance to prove himself, but this year we actually care about the record, so every game is critical in a way it just hasn't been for a long time here.

Holtz's opportunity to get time with better players is on the powerplay. If he can help get something going with the 2nd unit, maybe he earns time on the first unit or a few even strength shifts with Hughes when they mix up the lines in the 3rd period. Until he can do that, he's simply not playing well enough to warrant a chance to do more.

 

[TBF1972]

We're fragile up the middle, a big "Handle with Care" sign.

you know colorado is fragile up the middle without mackinnon. no team has a connor mcdavid in the ahl to call up in case of injuries.

 

[bossram]

and what exactly do you expect him to "prove" by playing 5 minutes per night with McLeod?

again its a vicious cycle. I never suggested he should be gifted top 6 time the rest of the year. I just wanted to see him get a few shifts here or there with better players.

Yeah. He's not that kind of player, and it's foolish to expect him to show anything given the deployment he will receive.

I actually like the new-look lines, but it is clear the 4th line is the "leftover" line and is barely going to play. Just send Holtz back to Utica if that's going to be the situation, and put in Johnsson.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

he’s had time on the power play though, and it was painful to watch him hang onto the puck too long and either lose it carrying it up the ice or lose a board battle in the o zone. he had opportunities and hasn’t stepped up. if his only ability is getting open for shots and ripping it then i’d rather shara be up in the top 6 because he can at least play defense and win a board battle

I mean he has 2 of the only 3 or 4 goals on the season from the 2nd PP unit...are we really going to criticize his PP play?

 

[NJDfan86]

No i mean it to show a level of quality.

We should all be aware that there is more to a player them just some statistic. So anyone with half a brain knows it doesn’t mean mcleod is a better passer the hughes. But in this discussion where the argument is it make no sense to put Holtz on McLeods line I think that stat suggests otherwise.

Again - /60 assist rates don't denote quality, McLeod being 3rd on the team in that metric does not mean he is a good passer or playmaker.

 

[devilsblood]

Yeah. He's not that kind of player, and it's foolish to expect him to show anything given the deployment he will receive.

I actually like the new-look lines, but it is clear the 4th line is the "leftover" line and is barely going to play. Just send Holtz back to Utica if that's going to be the situation, and put in Johnsson.

What kind of player is he? A guy who standss there waiting for someone to pass him the puck so he can shoot it?

If that is the type of player he is, then he's not good.

He needs to be more then that.

 

[devilsblood]

Again - /60 assist rates don't denote quality, McLeod being 3rd on the team in that metric does not mean he is a good passer or playmaker.

Take away the per 60 rate(so ignore he's played less minutes then a bunch of guys) he is 4th in 5v5 assists. 2 behind Hughes. (Despite being 9th in 5v5 toi, but again we will ignore that)

He's played well. Much better then Holtz has, that's for sure.

 

[bossram]

What kind of player is he? A guy who standss there waiting for someone to pass him the puck so he can shoot it?

If that is the type of player he is, then he's not good.

He needs to be more then that.

He's not a grinder. He needs a playmaker to be effective. And playing limited minutes isn't going to help him develop. He was drafted as a shooter. If they want him to be something else...well they probably should've thought about that beforehand.

I literally never claimed he's performed well this season. He hasn't. But he's not going to show anything in this kind of usage either.

I was listening to the PDOcast (once again) and Filipovic made a great point about the development of young players and playing them limited minutes in the NHL: They're going to lose confidence and their skill might even degrade with that kind of usage.

Basically, by being put with grinders or less-skilled players, they're going to be playing a style that doesn't utilize the talents that made them notable prospects in the first place. And if they're only playing 6-7 minutes a night, that really translates to maybe 2 puck touches every 10 minutes of real-time. They're not going to get the reps in to improve.

I'm honestly lower on Holtz than most and have been since he was drafted. But he isn't going to magically improve playing 5 minutes on L4. Just send him to Utica at that point.

 

[theoptimist]

you know colorado is fragile up the middle without mackinnon. no team has a connor mcdavid in the ahl to call up in case of injuries.

Mac eats his Wheaties

 

[NJDfan86]

Take away the per 60 rate(so ignore he's played less minutes then a bunch of guys) he is 4th in 5v5 assists. 2 behind Hughes. (Despite being 9th in 5v5 toi, but again we will ignore that)

He's played well. Much better then Holtz has, that's for sure.

He is *tied* with 3 other players for 4th in 5v5 assists - which again is not a metric of passing *quality*. If you were actually trying to make a quality argument for his passing you wouldn't limit it to 5v5 only since players make good passes in all situations, but using 5v5 makes McLeod's assist numbers look better.

He is tied for 7th in Primary 5v5 assists, and 12th in all situations Primary assists which would be much better numbers to look at if you were actually trying to make a quality argument and not pump McLeods tires. Even better though? On ice impact heat maps.

 

[Call Me Al]

I mean he has 2 of the only 3 or 4 goals on the season from the 2nd PP unit...are we really going to criticize his PP play?

yeah, because that unit being bad overall doesn’t make him good. his strength is ripping that shot, it’s good that he was able to do that a couple times. it’s every other time he has to carry or fight for the puck that creates issues

 

[OrangePort]

Never really liked the phrase 'must win' because it takes away from the meaning of every other game outside elimination games.

But tonight is one Id really like. One point in the last three doesnt scare me, and they are all good teams; so winning tonight can maybe reset us a bit. Get us back on our wagon for the rest of the month and into those Bruins games. Thats the real test.

 

[devilsblood]

He's not a grinder. He needs a playmaker to be effective. And playing limited minutes isn't going to help him develop. He was drafted as a shooter. If they want him to be something else...well they probably should've thought about that beforehand.

I literally never claimed he's performed well this season. He hasn't. But he's not going to show anything in this kind of usage either.

I was listening to the PDOcast (once again) and Filipovic made a great point about the development of young players and playing them limited minutes in the NHL: They're going to lose confidence and their skill might even degrade with that kind of usage.

Basically, by being put with grinders or less-skilled players, they're going to be playing a style that doesn't utilize the talents that made them notable prospects in the first place. And if they're only playing 6-7 minutes a night, that really translates to maybe 2 puck touches every 10 minutes of real-time. They're not going to get the reps in to improve.

I'm honestly lower on Holtz than most and have been since he was drafted. But he isn't going to magically improve playing 5 minutes on L4. Just send him to Utica at that point.

I don't like the limited minutes either, especially if it's 5 minutes in a game.

But McLeod can skate with the puck, and he can pass, he can also play d. There are definitely attributes there which makes him look like a good center for Holtz. Boq can also skate with the puck and has some offensive skills. So that is not as grinder a line as some want to say it is. Especially if they get cream puff matchups which I expect they will get.

I also think Holtz like every talented player needs to learn to play defense, they need to learn to win battles, they need to get their hands dirty. Nico certainly does those things. Hughes isn't a grinder, but he uses his skating, his anticipation, his stickwork to play D, he backchecks, you can see he understands the importance of it.

 

[devilsblood]

He is *tied* with 3 other players for 4th in 5v5 assists - which again is not a metric of passing *quality*. If you were actually trying to make a quality argument for his passing you wouldn't limit it to 5v5 only since players make good passes in all situations, but using 5v5 makes McLeod's assist numbers look better.

He is tied for 7th in Primary 5v5 assists, and 12th in all situations Primary assists which would be much better numbers to look at if you were actually trying to make a quality argument and not pump McLeods tires. Even better though? On ice impact heat maps.

All situations? Given he doesn't play PP does that not skew the numbers a little?

McLeod plays defensive minutes. D zone faceoffs. PK. Of course he's not going to be up there in all situations assists.

Geez louis.

I mean he has 2 of the only 3 or 4 goals on the season from the 2nd PP unit...are we really going to criticize his PP play?

Which is true, and does speak to his scoring ability. He does have talent.

Still he needs to be more then just a PP shooter.

 

[NJDfan86]

All situations? Given he doesn't play PP does that not skew the numbers a little?

McLeod plays defensive minutes. D zone faceoffs. PK. Of course he's not going to be up there in all situations assists.

Geez louis.

This is the same faulty logic behind using /60 rates for these role players, they reward limited players who don't get more TOI for obvious reasons - in McLeod's case it is because he is not a good offensive player. If he was a better passer or shooter maybe he would get PP time, but his role (which has been the same for his entire career, even when the Devils were bad) has never gotten any larger.

You completely glossed over discussing primary vs total assists, as well as looking at heat maps to justify your assertion that he is a good passer.....geez louis is right.

 

[Devils731]

McLeod is not a good passer.

McLeod is “ok” at helping contribute to offense that grinds in the cycle and puts everything at the net to distract goalies and bang for rebounds. He is not good at threading passes to open guys, even when he’s not under pressure.

 

[devilsblood]

This is the same faulty logic behind using /60 rates for these role players, they reward limited players who don't get more TOI for obvious reasons - in McLeod's case it is because he is not a good offensive player. If he was a better passer or shooter maybe he would get PP time, but his role (which has been the same for his entire career, even when the Devils were bad) has never gotten any larger.

You completely glossed over discussing primary vs total assists, as well as looking at heat maps to justify your assertion that he is a good passer.....geez louis is right.

Lets not forget the context of this discussion. Holtz playing on his wing. Is Mcleod good enogh for that? Of course he is.

 

[bossram]

I don't like the limited minutes either, especially if it's 5 minutes in a game.

But McLeod can skate with the puck, and he can pass, he can also play d. There are definitely attributes there which makes him look like a good center for Holtz. Boq can also skate with the puck and has some offensive skills. So that is not as grinder a line as some want to say it is. Especially if they get cream puff matchups which I expect they will get.

I also think Holtz like every talented player needs to learn to play defense, they need to learn to win battles, they need to get their hands dirty. Nico certainly does those things. Hughes isn't a grinder, but he uses his skating, his anticipation, his stickwork to play D, he backchecks, you can see he understands the importance of it.

I mean, I don't want to get into that discussion as it's clearly going on elsewhere...but c'mon. I think we know what kind of player Mcleod is now. He historically has a negative impact on scoring chance generation. I like him as your low-event/PK 4C, but he's not helping you create offense. Boqvist is a replacement-level player.

I agree, Holtz needs to develop his off-puck game. But like I said, he's not gonna learn much when he's not getting any reps playing 5 minutes a night. Send him to Utica and tell the coaches there to use him in a two-way role.

 

[theoptimist]

DELETE

 

[NJDfan86]

Lets not forget the context of this discussion. Holtz playing on his wing. Is Mcleod good enogh for that? Of course he is.

The context was posters wanted Holtz to play with better offensive players than McLeod, players who will find passing lanes and draw defenders to them to open up Holtz - McLeod ain't that.

Is playing him with McLeod better than Boqvist? Yea, probably.

 

[AfroThunder396]

and what exactly do you expect him to "prove" by playing 5 minutes per night with McLeod?

again its a vicious cycle. I never suggested he should be gifted top 6 time the rest of the year. I just wanted to see him get a few shifts here or there with better players.

I expect him to prove that he can take a regular NHL shift without being a liability. He has not proven that this season.

 

[OrangePort]

Hmm... maybe we need another goal scorer. Wish Holtz was a few years older