Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2022-23 season thread part III

[JimEIV]

I don't understand how anyone can still be defending Holtz at this point.

He does not belong in the NHL right now. And that's okay considering he's still young, but he will be 21 in January. Players of that age that are also a top 10 draft pick should be starting to show they belong in the NHL. Holtz has done the opposite of that thus far.

There's nothing wrong with having hope for him, but we do have to recognize it's clear he is being surpassed by MANY players in his draft class, as well as players in the draft class a year later as well.

If there were to be a redraft today of the 2020 class, it's possible he wouldn't even go in the 1st round.

How would we even know he doesn't belong in the NHL?

Holtz played 4:14 last night. 7 shifts.

9:46 and 13 shifts the game before.

This is an impossible situation to get going...

It's unfortunate for Holtz, we are in a different phase where we can't let a young guy tip toe through the tulips while he figures it out...we are trying to win every game...but I don't think that is reason to be impatient with Holtz.

I mean if that's how they are going to use him, I agree, get him playing in Utica.

I have seen glimpses of incredible passing and a rocket shot so I am definitely willing to take a wait and see approach.

 

[FooteBahl]

I don't understand how anyone can still be defending Holtz at this point.

He does not belong in the NHL right now. And that's okay considering he's still young, but he will be 21 in January. Players of that age that are also a top 10 draft pick should be starting to show they belong in the NHL. Holtz has done the opposite of that thus far.

There's nothing wrong with having hope for him, but we do have to recognize it's clear he is being surpassed by MANY players in his draft class, as well as players in the draft class a year later as well.

If there were to be a redraft today of the 2020 class, it's possible he wouldn't even go in the 1st round.

We obviously hit on Mercer in the 2020 draft and Muk is still an unknown so far. Holtz may need more time or may be a bust, but I’m not ready to call him a bust yet. It’s not like we had the 2015 bruins draft here.

 

[Camille the Eel]

When I think about last night in the clear light of another day, we controlled the game except for about a four minute stretch in the second period and maybe the last ten minutes of the first when it was even.

We lost because we gave up two goals on instant counterattacks where our defensive coverage totally broke down. The pass by Vesey at the end of the first period and the play off the face off after their power play goal.

Two complete defensive breakdowns where the goalie also couldn't pull off the miracle save. They cashed both of them in with great finishes by Kreider and then Kakko.

Those defensive breakdowns killed us. That's what we've got to clean up. Both were against the Boqvist line I think. And maybe Lindy got out coached there but it also might just have been Gallant getting the last change.

 

[DerekDevils30]

When I think about last night in the clear light of another day, we controlled the game except for about a four minute stretch in the second period and maybe the last ten minutes of the first when it was even.

We lost because we gave up two goals on instant counterattacks where our defensive coverage totally broke down. The pass by Vesey at the end of the first period and the play off the face off after their power play goal.

Two complete defensive breakdowns where the goalie also couldn't pull off the miracle save. They cashed both of them in with great finishes by Kreider and then Kakko.

Those defensive breakdowns killed us. That's what we've got to clean up. Both were against the Boqvist line I think. And maybe Lindy got out coached there but it also might just have been Gallant getting the last change.

The tying goal was Boqvist on with Hughes and Mercer since Haula was just on PK duty. Pretty good look into why they want Haula out there with Hughes. He makes a lot of the little plays that go unnoticed.

 

[hidek91]

We obviously hit on Mercer in the 2020 draft and Muk is still an unknown so far. Holtz may need more time or may be a bust, but I’m not ready to call him a bust yet. It’s not like we had the 2015 bruins draft here.

And who's saying that we had 2015 Bruins draft?

Holtz pick is a disappointment thus far, Mercer pick is very good and Mukhamadullin pick is average and hard to judge at this point (d-men need more time and he was drafted late in the round). All 3 picks can be judged separately.

The tying goal was Boqvist on with Hughes and Mercer since Haula was just on PK duty. Pretty good look into why they want Haula out there with Hughes. He makes a lot of the little plays that go unnoticed.

I was saying that for a long time but IMO Boqvist doesn't belong in the NHL in the long run and he's getting TOI based on the hope built around his age. He's weak defensively and despite good skating, isn't good offensively. Lacks hockey IQ, strength and shot. Can't make it based on the skating only.

 

[FooteBahl]

And who's saying that we had 2015 Bruins draft?

Holtz pick is a disappointment thus far, Mercer pick is very good and Mukhamadullin pick is average and hard to judge at this point (d-men need more time and he was drafted late in the round). All 3 picks can be judged separately.

Nobody said that. I’m just using that at a comparison because they had 3 picks in the first round that year. I’d be disappointed if only 1/3 were successful, but it wasn’t a complete giant green dildo draft like Boston had.

 

[JimEIV]

And who's saying that we had 2015 Bruins draft?

Holtz pick is a disappointment thus far, Mercer pick is very good and Mukhamadullin pick is average and hard to judge at this point (d-men need more time and he was drafted late in the round). All 3 picks can be judged separately.


I was saying that for a long time but IMO Boqvist doesn't belong in the NHL in the long run and he's getting TOI based on the hope built around his age. He's weak defensively and despite good skating, isn't good offensively. Lacks hockey IQ, strength and shot. Can't make it based on the skating only.

I agree on Boqvist

 

[Guttersniped]

I think they should scratch Holtz and put Johnsson into the lineup.

I also wouldn't be opposed to bringing up Pinho or Graeme Clarke.



I agree. with both Haula back at center and Johnsson into the lineup.

Mercer and Hughes should remain together with either Bratt or Tatar or Sharangovich on their other wing.

Pinho is just a random tweener, he’s not as good as De Leo or Greer was last season.

Not sure Clarke should come up either, he’s finally just got going in Utica and should work on producing more there. I liked Thompson in the pre-season but he’s not close to warranting a call up either.

Holtz is better than all of them and his greatest value to this team is on the power play.

He has 2 PP goals with ~13 minutes of time often on the second unit. He doesn’t have many shots 5v5 but has gotten them on the PP.

And if you’ve seen him live, his shot is noticeably hard, we don’t have any other shooter like him on the power play.

I don’t think Ruff wants to break up the top unit and the second unit doesn’t always get much time or possession. The one shitty PP shift he got vs the Rags will probably not help his case.

I get that it’s easy to dump on the guy but he’s been in 6 games after sitting out for over a month, other than the 3 AHL game warm up. He’s not a robot.

Holtz has been on the ice for 2 GA and 1 GF in 46:24 5v5 minutes in the last 6 games and one goal happened in each of the last two games. It’s 2 GA and 3 GF overall in 58:21 total minutes.

I get if this gets him a seat in the press box but I still see a useful player there. He hasn’t lost us games.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

How would we even know he doesn't belong in the NHL?

Holtz played 4:14 last night. 7 shifts.

9:46 and 13 shifts the game before.

Holtz was literally spoonfed an opportunity alongside Palat and Hughes to start the season. He didn't take advantage of it.

He doesn't skate well, he doesn't have a high compete level, he doesn't process the game quick enough, he doesn't move quick enough, etc.

His only true asset is his shot and he has good vision when he's given time and space. Problem is, he doesn't create time and space for himself.

We obviously hit on Mercer in the 2020 draft and Muk is still an unknown so far. Holtz may need more time or may be a bust, but I’m not ready to call him a bust yet. It’s not like we had the 2015 bruins draft here.

Not saying we didn't do great with the Mercer pick. I'm saying Holtz isn't an NHLer right now. That's all.

And who's saying that we had 2015 Bruins draft?

Holtz pick is a disappointment thus far, Mercer pick is very good and Mukhamadullin pick is average and hard to judge at this point (d-men need more time and he was drafted late in the round). All 3 picks can be judged separately.

I was saying that for a long time but IMO Boqvist doesn't belong in the NHL in the long run and he's getting TOI based on the hope built around his age. He's weak defensively and despite good skating, isn't good offensively. Lacks hockey IQ, strength and shot. Can't make it based on the skating only.

Completely agree with all of the bolded.

I highly doubt Boqvist is on the roster next season. He doesn't bring value to this team at all.

 

[Guttersniped]

Not going to mince words here, his mask kind of sucks. Boring and bad is not a great mix.

 

[JimEIV]

Holtz was literally spoonfed an opportunity alongside Palat and Hughes to start the season. He didn't take advantage of it.

He doesn't skate well, he doesn't have a high compete level, he doesn't process the game quick enough, he doesn't move quick enough, etc.

His only true asset is his shot and he has good vision when he's given time and space. Problem is, he doesn't create time and space for himself.

Look, I am not arguing any point other than he hasn't had enough time to determine anything.

The "spoon fed minutes" is just not true... look for yourself. He's played over 12 minutes in a game twice this season.

Alexander Holtz 2022-23 Game Log | Hockey-Reference.com

Gamelogs for Alexander Holtz for 2022-23

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[NJDevs26]

Holtz was literally spoonfed an opportunity alongside Palat and Hughes to start the season. He didn't take advantage of it.

For what, one game? In which he scored a PP goal and nearly a second? How many frigging chances does Haula get with Hughes before HE gets demoted?

Look I'm not a Holtz believer either, but if you're not going to actually give him a real chance on a scoring line then what's the point here? He doesn't have a back six forward skillset. They're even squeezing Sharangovich too much these days, just because of the one moment Haula is in the faceoff dot per shift.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Holtz was literally spoonfed an opportunity alongside Palat and Hughes to start the season. He didn't take advantage of it.

He’s played 8:48 with Jack Hughes.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

I think what you guys aren't taking into account is that there is A LOT more to hockey than shooting, passing, skating, and hitting.

It's the little minor details in a players game that all add up to bring value to a team.

Haula wins puck battles. He attacks opponents forcing them to give up the puck under pressure. He's relentless. Just because he has 1 goal doesn't mean he hasn't been an asset to this team and hasn't been an asset to Jack Hughes line. He absolutely has. Which is why he's been riding shotgun with Hughes for essentially this entire season.

Holtz does none of things. In reality, the only thing he does well is shoot the puck when given the opportunity. He doesn't create that opportunity for himself, he doesn't create opportunities for teammates.

I could go on and on. But there's a reason Holtz doesn't get playing time and it's not because he's in Ruff's doghouse or anything. It's simply because he's done nothing to earn those minutes, and even in the rare times he does get put in a situation, he doesn't force the coaching staff to give him another opportunity.

 

[MadDevil]

Holtz is 20 years old. It's still too early to be writing him off entirely, although given where the team is I'm not sure he's in a great position to get the kind of opportunities he might have if we were more focused on just development.

 

[My3Sons]

Not going to mince words here, his mask kind of sucks. Boring and bad is not a great mix.

To be fair, that's just a plain white mask. The picture was just taken moments after he read some of the posts by @Bleedred and Blackwood started copiously bleeding from spontaneous stigmata.

 

[Guttersniped]

I don't understand how anyone can still be defending Holtz at this point.

He does not belong in the NHL right now. And that's okay considering he's still young, but he will be 21 in January. Players of that age that are also a top 10 draft pick should be starting to show they belong in the NHL. Holtz has done the opposite of that thus far.

There's nothing wrong with having hope for him, but we do have to recognize it's clear he is being surpassed by MANY players in his draft class, as well as players in the draft class a year later as well.

If there were to be a redraft today of the 2020 class, it's possible he wouldn't even go in the 1st round.

Holtz would go in the 1st round right now.

Wheeler had him 17th in his Top 50 Drafted Prospects with only 4 other 2020 prospects ahead of him(Byfield, Sanderson, Rossi, Perfetti)

He was 17th in Elite Prospects 100 top affiliated prospects in September 14th with 3 other 2020 prospects ahead of him (Sanderson, Rossi, Perfetti)

Pronman re-ranked the 2020 draft in Oct 18 article and had him 14th. The 13 ahead of him includes Lukas Reichel, who’s back in the AHL after not sticking in the NHL after 12 games with Blackhawks (with 1 assist) and they aren’t trying to win.

Some people might take other players ahead of him, depending on how they view the field. He was in the same tier with Guhle and Peterka but they are right behind him. Schneider has a role on the Rangers and is 21nd.

Not sure how many players after that get considered right now though since it would just be other players who haven’t made the NHL yet either. Dylan Holloway isn’t lighting the world up either. Neither is Rossi for that matter and he was a guy some people wanted instead.

The fact is I don’t remember anyone on the board asking for Holtz. We had a rookie GM and they leaned in on getting guys “who just score goals”. (And not Jack Quinn.) It is what it is.

Holtz has a hell of a shot we should try to exploit more on our PP at some point though.

 

[HBK27]

 

[njdevils1982]

To be fair, that's just a plain white mask. The picture was just taken moments after he read some of the posts by @Bleedred and Blackwood started copiously bleeding from spontaneous stigmata.

 

[JrFischer54]

Thought ads on jerseys were bad. Play in would be 10000x worse

 

[nugg]

It's too bad neither Thompson nor Foote are doing good in Utica and Clarke just turned it on a bit lately. I had high hopes for Tyce, but so far this season he hasn't been great.

Maybe he's a late bloomer like his much taller brother Tage? One can only hope.

It's hard for wing prospects to excel with a pathetic center situation (Utica).

 

[hidek91]

Holtz is 20 years old. It's still too early to be writing him off entirely, although given where the team is I'm not sure he's in a great position to get the kind of opportunities he might have if we were more focused on just development.

Noone here is writing him off entirely yet but being in D+3 year, you'd expect more and Holtz's all-around game raises a lot of red flags, he looks more raw than Hughes was in his rookie year. There needs to be a huge improvement of his 5v5 play, if not, he'll end up as a sheltered PP specialist at best.

 

[njdevils1982]

Thought ads on jerseys were bad. Play in would be 10000x worse

its gonna happen eventually...

.....nfl did it, the nba did it, mlb did it......f***, the next soccer world cup will have 48! teams instead of 32.... $$$$$$



top 16 is ENOUGH

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I wouldn't make any definitive comments on Holtz. 19 NHL games over 2 season is absolutely meaningless...even if they were spectacular performances, I would still think "need more data".

Not only is it just 19 games, it's 19 games averaging 11 minutes...what the hell could be gathered from 19 games with no ice time?

That said, I am not particularly high on Holtz but he certainly needs more time to prove himself.

I don't understand how anyone can still be defending Holtz at this point.

He does not belong in the NHL right now. And that's okay considering he's still young, but he will be 21 in January. Players of that age that are also a top 10 draft pick should be starting to show they belong in the NHL. Holtz has done the opposite of that thus far.

There's nothing wrong with having hope for him, but we do have to recognize it's clear he is being surpassed by MANY players in his draft class, as well as players in the draft class a year later as well.

If there were to be a redraft today of the 2020 class, it's possible he wouldn't even go in the 1st round.

These posts, literally back to back, is chef's kiss

also, lol to the bolded.

 

[nugg]

I just saw Josefson's name posted.

AAAAARRRRGGGHHHHHH STOP DRAFTING SWEDES IN THE FIRST ROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


ok i feel better after shouting that into my pillow.

It's true that our success rate for drafting Swedes is pretty bad. Aside from Bratt, (rare great success), Larsson (disappointing but 700 games) and maybe Zetterlund, who have we drafted in our entire history from that country that's been successful? Zippo!