Devils 2021 training camp thread (news, notes and speculation)

[Hisch13r]

Just like Zacha

It's a good joke, it's a great joke even but I need you to stop anyway

 

[Hisch13r]

With a Johnsson bounceback that A group could be really good. B would get killed. C's great

 

[jkrdevil]

They already telegraphed that they are going to try Zacha again at 3rd line center. Other than that these are fine.

 

[Mgd31]

Excited about the Hughes line potential.

 

[Hisch13r]

They already telegraphed that they are going to try Zacha again at 3rd line center. Other than that these are fine.

I wouldn't hate if they end up moving him back to wing but it's not with Nico/Bratt if Johnsson works out there. If Boqvist or Mercer prove to be useful NHLers then I think a Zacha-Boqvist/Mercer-Kuokkanen line could be pretty good

 

[JimEIV]

He needs highly skilled forwards

Man I really have a problem with this.


Here is the problem I have with this notion - Forget Jack for a moment because this argument has been used for a lot of underperforming/missed expectations players in the past, that is "He needs highly skilled partners"

Any player that "needs" Elite linemates to be good is not an elite player. Elite players perform at a high level regardless - One of Ovechkin's best season was with Zubrus as his center...You know what I mean? Sure Backstrom helped but Ovechkin was going to score regardless of who his pivot was...That is what elite means.

Of Course better partners will help maximize their production, but the range of 55 points to 90 points is two different levels of player. That is beyond maximizing natural talent that is being lifted.

On top of that, I have another philosophical problem with this notion...A highly skilled play making center should make average wingers much better...Any center can be good with elite wingers, we have seen examples of this over and over...Henrique his rookie year and the aforementioned Zubrus, I would even say Nico in his rookie year. But we've also seen centers like Scott Gomez make everyone around him better.

It just seems one giant excuse for lack of success whenever I hear or read He needs highly skilled forwards

 

[OmNomNom]

you guys have it wrong, just ice 11F/7W and make mercer play Top 6 Wing AND 3C

 

[Hisch13r]

He needs highly skilled forwards

Man I really have a problem with this.


Here is the problem I have with this notion - Forget Jack for a moment because this argument has been used for a lot of underperforming/missed expectations players in the past, that is "He needs highly skilled partners"

Any player that "needs" Elite linemates to be good is not an elite player. Elite players perform at a high level regardless - One of Ovechkin's best season was with Zubrus as his center...You know what I mean? Sure Backstrom helped but Ovechkin was going to score regardless of who his pivot was...That is what elite means.

Of Course better partners will help maximize their production, but the range of 55 points to 90 points is two different levels of player. That is beyond maximizing natural talent that is being lifted.

On top of that, I have another philosophical problem with this notion...A highly skilled play making center should make average wingers much better...Any center can be good with elite wingers, we have seen examples of this over and over...Henrique his rookie year and the aforementioned Zubrus, I would even say Nico in his rookie year. But we've also seen centers like Scott Gomez make everyone around him better.

It just seems one giant excuse for lack of success whenever I hear or read He needs highly skilled forwards

Hughes was incredible at creating chances by all accounts outside of pts (and you're eye test) whether that's eye test, micostats, macrostats. He has proven he doesn't need highly skilled forwards to be good. What he needs is guys who can actually convert on the plays that he creates. Judging by how he performed with Yegor (admittedly small sample) this held true.

 

[TrufleShufle]

He needs highly skilled forwards

Man I really have a problem with this.


Here is the problem I have with this notion - Forget Jack for a moment because this argument has been used for a lot of underperforming/missed expectations players in the past, that is "He needs highly skilled partners"

Any player that "needs" Elite linemates to be good is not an elite player. Elite players perform at a high level regardless - One of Ovechkin's best season was with Zubrus as his center...You know what I mean? Sure Backstrom helped but Ovechkin was going to score regardless of who his pivot was...That is what elite means.

Of Course better partners will help maximize their production, but the range of 55 points to 90 points is two different levels of player. That is beyond maximizing natural talent that is being lifted.

On top of that, I have another philosophical problem with this notion...A highly skilled play making center should make average wingers much better...Any center can be good with elite wingers, we have seen examples of this over and over...Henrique his rookie year and the aforementioned Zubrus, I would even say Nico in his rookie year. But we've also seen centers like Scott Gomez make everyone around him better.

It just seems one giant excuse for lack of success whenever I hear or read He needs highly skilled forwards

The difference is, playmaker vs sniper. All Ovechkin needs is someone to get him the puck and that's it. Jack has a bad shot, that's no secret, but he is a master at getting the puck to a player who nobody expects, including that player, at anytime. I understand it was a different league, but it's why him and Cole were so good together, Cole was ready and expected the puck at all times and was good enough to finish it.

I understand your frustration, but if you didn't see the numerous times Jack has gotten the puck to someone in an amazing way/spot but that person either wasn't ready for it, or couldn't finish it, you are either lying to yourself or didn't watch.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

Nothing against Johnsson — because I do believe there’s a good chance he bounces back nicely — but I really want Zacha in that LW slot next to Nico and Bratt.

 

[JimEIV]

The difference is, playmaker vs sniper. All Ovechkin needs is someone to get him the puck and that's it. Jack has a bad shot, that's no secret, but he is a master at getting the puck to a player who nobody expects, including that player, at anytime. I understand it was a different league, but it's why him and Cole were so good together, Cole was ready and expected the puck at all times and was good enough to finish it.

I understand your frustration, but if you didn't see the numerous times Jack has gotten the puck to someone in an amazing way/spot but that person either wasn't ready for it, or couldn't finish it, you are either lying to yourself or didn't watch.

I believe that happened...Not nearly as frequently as him taking the zone and holding on to the puck to long only to lose it for a wasted possession though.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Of course all players produce more with better linemates. Taylor Hall had 53 points with Travis Zajac as his center, the next year his center was Nico Hischier and his production went up to 93 points.

It's almost like offense is driven collectively by a 5-man unit and individual points simply reflect a relative share of that.

 

[Hisch13r]

Nothing against Johnsson — because I do believe there’s a good chance he bounces back nicely — but I really want Zacha in that LW slot next to Nico and Bratt.

I think the lineup would be balanced better with him down the lineup. I think a Boqvist/Mercer-Kuokkanen 3rd line could be good but they'd need a shooter and Zacha is better suited for that than Johnsson is. Nico-Bratt will be good regardless of who they're with

 

[TrufleShufle]

I believe that happened...Not nearly as frequently as him taking the zone and holding on to the puck to long only to lose it for a wasted possession though.

So imagine a world where the guy he passed to was ready and able to do something with it, AND also get to a good area when Jack is roaming the O-zone looking for someone to pass to.

 

[JimEIV]

Of course all players produce more with better linemates. Taylor Hall had 53 points with Travis Zajac as his center, the next year his center was Nico Hischier and his production went up to 93 points.

It's almost like offense is driven collectively by a 5-man unit and individual points simply reflect a relative share of that.

Except some people produce under any circumstances with any linemates. Some people are a part of the collective and some elevate the collective...The ones that elevate are the elite players...The ones that just get their share...Not so much.

 

[JimEIV]

So imagine a world where the guy he passed to was ready and able to do something with it, AND also get to a good area when Jack is roaming the O-zone looking for someone to pass to.

Imagine a world where a center had the brains to hold just longer enough to open a lane and can thread needle to a guy like Brylin and produce 50+ assist.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Except some people produce under any circumstances with any linemates. Some people are a part of the collective and some elevate the collective...The one that elevate are the elite players...The ones that just get their share...Not so much.

Good point, people like Kovy were for a time elite because they could do it on their own. Put me in the camp of, "get Jack a good line mate to work with and he might not be elite, but I'll be happy with him being really f***ing good."

 

[TrufleShufle]

Imagine a world where a center had the brains to hold just longer enough to open a lane and can thread needle to a guy like Brylin and produce 50+ assist.

So the solution to him holding on too long, is to hold on longer and sign Brylin?

 

[JimEIV]

Good point, people like Kovy were for a time elite because they could do it on their own. Put me in the camp of, "get Jack a good line mate to work with and he might not be elite, but I'll be happy with him being really f***ing good."

Mean too...Unfortunately 45 point pace and 36 point career pace...Just isn't really f***ing good no matter how hard you try to convince yourself otherwise.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Tatar-Jack-Sharangovich should be dominant. That 3rd line (group B) would get smoked nightly.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Mean too...Unfortunately 45 point pace and 36 point career pace...Just isn't really f***ing good no matter how hard you try to convince yourself otherwise.

You are 100% right, hence why we are talking about getting him a good line mate at this point in the conversation.

 

[Hisch13r]

Tatar-Jack-Sharangovich should be dominant. That 3rd line (group B) would get smoked nightly.

I'd rather Kuokkanen elsewhere but they wouldn't be bad with McLeod as the center instead

 

[Ripshot 43]

All I hear is the Benny Hill soundtrack

 

[JimEIV]

So the solution to him holding on too long, is to hold on longer and sign Brylin?

I'll say it again even though some have taken umbrage with the idea...I don't think Jack is a very intelligent player. Supremely skilled but a bit dopey with the puck...He has the ability to do things other can't but honestly I don't think he has smarts to utilize those talents. That is what I am seeing and what I believe. He'll eventually learn and get better but I don't think truly elite is the cards with the way he processes the game. Just being 100% honest.

 

[Lou is God]

I'll say it again even though some have taken umbrage with the idea...I don't think Jack is a very intelligent player. Supremely skilled but a bit dopey with the puck...He has the ability to do things other can't but honestly I don't think he has smarts to utilize those talents. That is what I am seeing and what I believe. He'll eventually learn and get better but I don't think truly elite is the cards with the way he processes the game. Just being 100% honest.

Oh for christ's sake, this is bullshit. Your hate for Jack is off the boards man.