Devils 2021-22 team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part XII

[Devils731]

And if he maintains a ppg pace that’s satisfactory production for a prospect of his caliber. When have I ever said otherwise? Please don’t just make shit up.

When have you ever said his current production isn’t good enough? It was when you said you weren’t shifting goal posts.

“I haven't shifted any goal posts. Like I said, the general expectation of first overalls is game breaking talent who can change the fortunes of a franchise relatively quickly. Jack is not that, at least not currently.

Using inferences about future performance as a measurement of current progress is problematic for a host of reasons. If you recognized why that is, we wouldn't have these arguments.”

“Jack is currently not good enough for his draft position” and “his production is satisfactory for a prospect of his caliber” are not 2 statements that go together without splitting the finest of hairs.

 

[Triumph]

You are conflating lower bullishness with outright skepticism, but that’s par for the course. Certain posters get their fee fee’s hurt when others are not comfortable proclaiming with near certainty that a prospect’s potential will be reached.

Give me a break. I'm supposed to split hairs on 'lower bullishness' and 'outright skepticism' when you absolutely never say with ANY conviction what you think a player is GOING TO BE, just WHAT HE IS NOT now. How in the world am I supposed to distinguish between two arbitrary positions that you just invented when all you ever say about the player is negative except for the few 'Oh, Hughes is good, glad he's living up to that draft position!' little check ins you did.

What do you think Jack Hughes is in 5 years? He's 25 years old. What kind of player is he?

 

[Buck Dancer]

You are conflating lower bullishness with outright skepticism, but that’s par for the course. Certain posters get their fee fee’s hurt when others are not comfortable proclaiming with near certainty that a prospect’s potential will be reached.

You act as if you didn’t know that certain posters get super offended when not proclaiming one of our prospects to be elite just because scouts said he’d be just they watched him play, when he was 15 years old.

You know better then that man lol

 

[StevenToddIves]

I'm just going to chime in here and remind anyone daft enough to be slagging Jack Hughes that he's been 100% healthy in just 8 games this year -- the opener and the 7 games since the Xmas break. In those 8 games, Jack has 6 goals and 9 assists for 15 points. Jack Hughes is not yet old enough to drink a beer in the USA. What exactly do people want from the kid?

 

[Bleedred]

I don't understand why the criticism for Hughes of all people or Hischier. People were going after Bratt up until the last month or two.

The players that deserve the heat are the ones who've really underperformed and have been highly under expectations this year. I don't even know if I should count someone like Kuokkanen. I guess we could say him, I think more was expected of him.

The two players that really stick out very badly are Ty Smith and MacKenzie Blackwood.

 

[Guttersniped]

jury is still out on mercer hes having a great year but lets see what he does next year. sharangovich had a great season last season and flamed out this season. anderson isn't even in the nhl anymore is he? hes definitely a bust if the biggest contribution to us is being traded.

Shara wasn’t better last season.

You could have been hoping for a bigger step forward or something, but he’s been fine after and rocky start where he played on lines with half of the staff in the Prudential Center.

He makes defensive mistakes at times but he did that last season.

 

[Guttersniped]

It's too early to say anything really, but the Mercer pick looks like a home run. Holtz and L. Hughes are trending nicely for where they were taken. Mukhamdullin and Stillman were off the board picks, Mukhamdullin is trending well but Stillman isn't. The rest of the picks after that...what can you say really? There were some wild picks in terms of "consensus" but TBD.

My complaints re: Fitz was that he traded so many picks away for roster players, but Graves and Siegenthaler have been providing great value, both trades look like good moves (without knowing how he'd address the defense in FA otherwise). I don't know if I can really criticize how he's handled the draft at all based on early returns given Mercer is so far ahead of where an 18th overall pick should be expected to be. I'm still a bit peeved by the Stillman pick tbh, but overall things look quite good in terms of converting draft capital into useful players.

I don’t know if I can have a problem with Fitz trading picks. He traded a 2021 #61, 2021 #75 and 2021 #132.

In 2021 we used our own 3rd round pick for the first time since 2015. Yep, somehow that’s true. Now several of these we not voluntary trades by Shero (and we got a good 3rd, a 2019 #70, back in the Rico/Vats trade):
2016 #72 NJD “TRADED” to PIT for
John Hynes in 2015

2017 #67 NJD TRADED to CAR
(2014 TDL Ruutu/Loktionov trade with Carolina)

2018 #79 NJD TRADED to Anaheim w/ Henrique for Vatanen & conditional 2019 3rd

2019 #65 NJD TRADED to Edmonton for Maroon at 2018 TDL

2020 Traded #68 NJD to Vegas for Gusev in July 2019

And, yes, I’m going to bitch about our 2nds again, because those are the killers:
2018 #48 NJD TRADED to NYR for Grabner at 2018 TDL

2019 #34 NJD TRADED to Nashville for Subban in June 2019

2020 #37 NJD TRADED to Nashville for Subban in June 2019

2021 #36 NJD TRADED to Vegas for Gusev in July 2019

Not only did we lose out on drafting in a spot where elite talent is potentially still kicking around, this begs the question: what was the plan if we were actually good? What assets were we planning on trading if we kept everyone and we were a playoff team? Our 1sts?

Shero didn’t do a rebuild, he did a retool. (Which was always doomed to fail, we needed too much.) He brought in picks, but picks went out too. The playoff year and the “let’s just pretend we’re good” afterwards cost us quality assets. He increased the number of picks with pick trades but there is real downside to the “quantity not quality” approach to picks.

I’m not saying this because the team has to built only by prospects. I’m saying we jumped the gun on moving assets out and it f***s us now. Those prospects from those picks would be very tradable.

The Kings have a lot more tradable assets because they drafted more in the 1st & 2nd round. They also focused on centers, defense and elite offense in that round. (Just a thought Fitz.)

This isn’t a process where you get a couple of players and *presto* you’re done. You want to take a lot of swings.

 

[Guttersniped]

Nothing makes me more happy in life seeing the Oilers continue to suck despite having McDavid and Leon.

If a franchise could have been dropped on it’s head as a baby… that’s the Oilers. No matter what your dumb team does, don’t worry, Edmonton is dumber. (And their fans are very much not dumb nor delusional, I do feel for the fanbase.)

 

[Guttersniped]

The Oilers are another great example of bad goalies right now.

The most predictable gamble of the year was not betting money on Mike Smith replicating what he did last year (it was an anomaly/overachievement year for a goalie who was 38-39 years old and already on the decline for a couple of years before that) and still letting Koskinen also play there.

They needed to go with one or the other and upgrade with the open spot. They could have used Nedeljkovic and if they went out and got Kuemper (who hasn't been great this year) then I would have at least have given them credit. Even if he didn't work out.

They stood pat and stayed status quo.

Neither were likely an option. Carolina was negotiating with Ned and when asked for too much then traded him for a different goalie to negotiate with (Bernier *sigh*).

Arizona held out for high price on one year of Kuemper, who’s never stayed healthy and has been oddly kind of sheltered in Arizona (at least compared to Edmonton).

They tried for Markstrom but he got 6 years/6m and I don’t know, it’s tough to outbid that. And Markstrom would have had a tougher time in Edmonton with a down season like last year. I’m hoping the organization isn’t as straight abusive to struggling players as it was in the past (basically Edmonton hockey men = pieces of shit) so I don’t know… but he’s likely better off in Calgary.

You’re not wrong, I just don’t know what the solution was there.

One of the funnier bits about this season is the team “leadership group” went to Holland and asked him to keep Barrie. And he listened to them. Oops.

 

[glenwo2]

I'm just going to chime in here and remind anyone daft enough to be slagging Jack Hughes that he's been 100% healthy in just 8 games this year -- the opener and the 7 games since the Xmas break. In those 8 games, Jack has 6 goals and 9 assists for 15 points. Jack Hughes is not yet old enough to drink a beer in the USA. What exactly do people want from the kid?

I just want him to stay healthy. *crosses fingers*

That's all.

Everything else? I'm satisfied by his progress.

 

[Better Call Sal]

It really is a shame how badly Ty has fallen off from his rookie year. I really hope he can find his game again.

 

[glenwo2]

It really is a shame how badly Ty has fallen off from his rookie year. I really hope he can find his game again.

It's like he's a totally different player (not in a good way) now.

 

[Buck Dancer]

I think the system is just too complicated for him or he’s just not getting what he should be doing. You don’t learn how to play like that in juniors and having to grasp an entire different way to play the game at the NHL level is screwing him up more so then anything else. Who teaches to leave the slot wide open in order to help out your partner behind the net? It would also kind of explain that brain cramp he had when he let Pasternak walk in the slot because he was too busy trying to cover Hall, who was the least dangerous player on the ice for Boston at the time of the goal.

Somethings up, I mean, the guy didn’t forget to play hockey overnight.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Pavel Zacha’s last 18 games: 1 goal, 3 assists, 37 shots, -15

I’m not a Zacha detractor but man he has been colossally underwhelming for the last month and a half.

 

[SJinNewJersey]

I'm just going to chime in here and remind anyone daft enough to be slagging Jack Hughes that he's been 100% healthy in just 8 games this year -- the opener and the 7 games since the Xmas break. In those 8 games, Jack has 6 goals and 9 assists for 15 points. Jack Hughes is not yet old enough to drink a beer in the USA. What exactly do people want from the kid?

Some posters around here want

 

[AfroThunder396]

Again - Edmonton is 7th in their division with Connor McDavid and Leon Draisaitl each at 1.50 points per game. If Hughes and Hischier put up those numbers, why would we expect our team to be any better? It's never going to be enough if the other 18 guys suck.

 

[SJinNewJersey]

If a franchise could have been dropped on it’s head as a baby… that’s the Oilers. No matter what your dumb team does, don’t worry, Edmonton is dumber. (And their fans are very much not dumb nor delusional, I do feel for the fanbase.)

I still can't understand them not taking Wallstedt.

 

[Mgd31]

Again - Edmonton is 7th in their division with Connor McDavid and Leon Draisaitl each at 1.50 points per game. If Hughes and Hischier put up those numbers, why would we expect our team to be any better? It's never going to be enough if the other 18 guys suck.

Yea and especially the goaltending. It really doesn't matter how good the skaters are when your goaltending is as bad as Edmonton's and ours.

 

[Devs3cups]

I still can't understand them not taking Wallstedt.

I remember being stunned on Draft Day. Minnesota stole him away.

 

[13BearerOfHope]

I'm just going to chime in here and remind anyone daft enough to be slagging Jack Hughes that he's been 100% healthy in just 8 games this year -- the opener and the 7 games since the Xmas break. In those 8 games, Jack has 6 goals and 9 assists for 15 points. Jack Hughes is not yet old enough to drink a beer in the USA. What exactly do people want from the kid?

Lol not old enough to legally drink a beer.

 

[Lou is God]

Pavel Zacha’s last 18 games: 1 goal, 3 assists, 37 shots, -15

I’m not a Zacha detractor but man he has been colossally underwhelming for the last month and a half.

I'm ready to move on from him, the biggest issue as I see it is when he isn't producing he doesn't really bring anything else to the table. He's almost useless out there.

 

[devils2181]

So what is the return for these guys if we are sellers, and to where?:

Zacha

Johnsson

Severson

Subban

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

So what is the return for these guys if we are sellers, and to where?:

Zacha

Johnsson

Severson

Subban

I don't see Johnsson/Severson being traded as they have an extra year and next year is really playoffs or everyone gets fired imo. But if the Devils were willing to retain 50% on Severson they could get a major return from a team like Toronto.

Subban I think will return nothing at this point, need to pay another team to retain 25% and then why bother? Zacha will be traded in offseason for a similar underwhelming RFA I think similar to the Domi/Anderson swap, or he will get a 1 year deal from Fitz taking him to UFA as roster depth. I was trying to find a Zacha for a goalie trade and couldn't find one (Mrazek?).

Basically, none of these guys will return anything except Severson, and that decision is probably to be made at next season's trade deadline, and if that happens it might be the next GM's call.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Zacha - An equivalent change of scenery forward. Dylan Strome? Filip Zadina?
Johnsson - Hold until next year
Severson - Hold, unless someone offers you a 1st+
Subban - Literally anything

 

[13BearerOfHope]

Wow Nico showing some true frustration in the press conference yesterday. Must have come into the game rested and full of hope to whoop some A. Unfortunately half the team was in couch-potato not warrior mood.

Loved to see how Nico cares though. Nice emotions.

Overall the team is pretty soft though and we could need some more folks with rough edges. Bratt, Damon, Jack, Pavel, etc too many nice guys