Devils 2021-22 offseason team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part II

[RSeen]

Really hoping we trade for Garland and try to lock him up long term. At 25, you can get away with a long-term deal and probably at a relatively affordable rate ($6 million or less?).

Would be a great option in the top 6 and PP.

 

[devilsblood]

Lou didn't trade for Palms

Yeah he did.

 

[MartyOwns]

And yet you guys routinely get up in arms over ‘bad faith and hyperbolic’ posts. It’s doth protest too much syndrome. If everything was going swimmingly people wouldn’t care, but because the rebuild already had to be rebooted once and Nico’s production has stagnated the last three years while Jack so far has been a more dependent player than a guy with his playmaking skills should be there’s a lot of sensitivity around here with those hot button topics. So it’s easy to pick the low hanging fruit of ‘disgrace’ type comments and comparing a 20-year old to a 23-year old Parise and acting like that invalidates everything else but it’s harder to admit maybe there’s a kernel of truth to the criticism of those players and that the win now approach isn’t all bad while tanking for high picks isn’t the cure all it gets portrayed as.

talk about bad faith arguments...nobody here is saying hughes has lived up to expectations yet. but as usual, when context is applied to explain why his production isn't where it needs to be, we have to hear about tom chorske or whoever.

by the way, can someone give me directions to Win Nowtown? what would that even look like? trade hughes for joe thornton? package smith and holtz for kris letang? what exactly is the roadmap to get there?

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

That is the thing about all the detractors...they typically just complain to hear themselves speak but yet don't typically offer examples of what they would have done

At least myself (and others) throw ideas out there on who we would sign, who we would trade for, etc even if we are wrong sometimes. I was all for signing Trouba and that was a bad take. It happens.

I need to know these surefire moves that the Devils should have made over the past 4-5 years that would have turned them into a contender by now.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Yeah he did.

Shero was the GM when that happened

 

[devilsblood]

Shero was the GM when that happened

Lou traded for Palms.

You can like this post when you figure it out.

 

[Devil X]

YES...I would tried to begin to win after 2018 season ..I would have been looking to sure up the defense...It was obvious our defense was terrible and nothing was done...I mean trade Lovejoy add Carrick...Really? Ryan Murphy? Mueller and Moore? What are you doing here? Only conclusion I can come to, is they wanted better lottery odds...

They never added added size or grit to the lineup - Kinda saw that with Maroon but it was only a rental situation we had Boyle which wasn't bad but we sold him that year.

Cory fell apart in the 2017 part of the 2017-18 season and nothing was done...We were rolling with Keith alone pretty much...That was ridiculous...

But you can't go to that one spot in time of the 2019 draft and look at it in a vacuum. Picking #1 for the second time was direct result of the shitty choices during the 2019 season and even before that. I wouldn't have had us picking #1 is what I would've done different.

My question is who was traded in this timeframe that would have fixed the defense? Even from a FA stand point?

I dont think anyone actually believed that the D was going to be good. But D seems to be pretty hard to improve overall. Not many stud Defenseman are moving around the NHL.

Even those Lou teams were mainly built with good drafting and development, plus winning a tampering case.

 

[devilsblood]

Really hoping we trade for Garland and try to lock him up long term. At 25, you can get away with a long-term deal and probably at a relatively affordable rate ($6 million or less?).

Would be a great option in the top 6 and PP.

Is Garland a top 6 and PP guy? A meh option at best I'd think.

 

[JimEIV]

My question is who was traded in this timeframe that would have fixed the defense? Even from a FA stand point?

I dont think anyone actually believed that the D was going to be good. But D seems to be pretty hard to improve overall. Not many stud Defenseman are moving around the NHL.

Even those Lou teams were mainly built with good drafting and development, plus winning a tampering case.

McAvoy ---Chychrun too -- Heiskanen also

 

[My3Sons]

And yet you guys routinely get up in arms over ‘bad faith and hyperbolic’ posts. It’s doth protest too much syndrome. If everything was going swimmingly people wouldn’t care, but because the rebuild already had to be rebooted once and Nico’s production has stagnated the last three years while Jack so far has been a more dependent player than a guy with his playmaking skills should be there’s a lot of sensitivity around here with those hot button topics. So it’s easy to pick the low hanging fruit of ‘disgrace’ type comments and comparing a 20-year old to a 23-year old Parise and acting like that invalidates everything else but it’s harder to admit maybe there’s a kernel of truth to the criticism of those players and that the win now approach isn’t all bad while tanking for high picks isn’t the cure all it gets portrayed as.

I think I am the user of the word "hyperbolic". I'm not sure I've seen anyone else say that in the team futility discussion. I don't think I've been up in arms about the points made by folks suggesting that the team is struggling to rebuild. I don't think most folks are in denial about it. I think it's the way the baloney is being sliced that folks take exception to. I agree there are some that are too optimistic but there are some that will typically choose to highlight the bad at most opportunities rather than be balanced. I'd just like to see reasonable discussion rather than hot takes and insults that don't advance anyone's argument.

 

[My3Sons]

That is the thing about all the detractors...they typically just complain to hear themselves speak but yet don't typically offer examples of what they would have done

At least myself (and others) throw ideas out there on who we would sign, who we would trade for, etc even if we are wrong sometimes. I was all for signing Trouba and that was a bad take. It happens.

I need to know these surefire moves that the Devils should have made over the past 4-5 years that would have turned them into a contender by now.

Two words, Love and Joy.

 

[JimEIV]

Two words, Love and Joy.

Paired with Gelinas you get some kind of weird Joy-Gelly

 

[devilsblood]

My question is who was traded in this timeframe that would have fixed the defense? Even from a FA stand point?

I dont think anyone actually believed that the D was going to be good. But D seems to be pretty hard to improve overall. Not many stud Defenseman are moving around the NHL.

Even those Lou teams were mainly built with good drafting and development, plus winning a tampering case.

I thought Shero actually did a decent job slapping a D together starting, and this will probably blow some minds here, with the contracts to Moore and Lovejoy.

Were those guys great shakes? Nah, but they were serviceable, and at that stage of a rebuild serviceable is fine.

And Vats and Subban were solid additions as well(I know some guys are not fans of PK) but the problem with each of those guys is they cost assets. At the time it made sense with Vats because we were off to a hot start and it looked like we had something goin, but in hindsight it was too early to make such a move. Subban was a move to placate Hall, and looking back just 2 years later we don't want either guy on the roster going fwd, and again Subban cost assets.

Fitz went back to the early Shero model of just signing a couple serviceable guys.

Sieg's, not that a 3rd going back the other way is a big deal, but again couldn't we just sign a guy? I guess you don't want to go into an offseason with too many holes to fill.

The problem throughout though is the lack of top end guys. How do you get top end guys? You draft them with high picks. It's why we wanted Drysdale last year, and it is why I am so dead set on BDA this year.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

McAvoy ---Chychrun too -- Heiskanen also

First two, yes. No way they would’ve taken Miro over Hischier considering we were still at stage where we wanted Hall to stay long term in NJ and a first line center to play with ready from day 1 appeals more to the Devils situation than a dmen they had to wait for in 18-19 even if Heiskanen is the better player now with hindsight.

 

[RSeen]

Is Garland a top 6 and PP guy? A meh option at best I'd think.

Based on what? He just put up 39 points in 49 games and has had terrific possession numbers his entire career.

He'd probably be our best winger immediately depending on where Bratt's at.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Paired with Gelinas you get some kind of weird Joy-Gelly

How you didn't go with Love-Jelly I'll never understand.

 

[JimEIV]

by the way, can someone give me directions to Win Nowtown? what would that even look like? trade hughes for joe thornton? package smith and holtz for kris letang? what exactly is the roadmap to get there?

Here you go...start with Jim Korn on page 10 then go backwards through each page until you get the
disastrous moment of February 2010

That'll give you a good idea of what it looks like.

History of NHL trades by the New Jersey Devils - NHL Trade Tracker

 

[devilsblood]

First two, yes. No way they would’ve taken Miro over Hischier considering we were still at stage where we wanted Hall to stay long term in NJ and a first line center to play with ready from day 1 appeals more to the Devils situation than a dmen they had to wait for in 18-19 even if Heiskanen is the better player now with hindsight.

The #1 pick was going to be either Nico or Patrick. Those were the consensus top 2. Plus we were still in the stock the fwd cupboard mode at that point, so while I was open to the idea of trading down(insert top picks are never traded reply here) given neither guy was considered a high end #1, I probably still would have went fwd even if we did.

 

[devilsblood]

Based on what? He just put up 39 points in 49 games and has had terrific possession numbers his entire career.

He'd probably be our best winger immediately depending on where Bratt's at.

Haven't really dug in, but he had 27 assists this season in 49 games. Prior to that he had 22 in 115. So I wonder about that.

He does look to be a late bloomer, and more of a goal scorer then a playmaker in general, so maybe there is something there.

I'll checkk natstat to see what's what.

 

[MartyOwns]

Here you go...start with Jim Korn on page 10 then go backwards through each page until you get the
disastrous moment of February 2010

That'll give you a good idea of what it looks like.

History of NHL trades by the New Jersey Devils - NHL Trade Tracker

jim korn? can't you just say what players you want to trade and what players you want to target? what happened 30+ years ago is completely irrelevant

 

[devilsblood]

I assume too that acquiring a guy like Garland would then squeeze McLeod into the unprotected list?

 

[britdevil]

Paired with Gelinas you get some kind of weird Joy-Gelly

 

[TrufleShufle]

jim korn? can't you just say what players you want to trade and what players you want to target? what happened 30+ years ago is completely irrelevant

"It's a misdirection question...based on a bullshit scenario.

I see this at work alot...6 iterations of bad decisions by a single person and THEN they ask what would you have done different on the 6th iteration...The real answer is you shouldn't have screwed up 5 times before this."

 

[JimEIV]

jim korn? can't you just say what players you want to trade and what players you want to target? what happened 30+ years ago is completely irrelevant

See it really isn't...
Lou said We need to get tougher and add some scoring when he took over as President(He was Pres before GM in case you didn't know)...Korn, Maley, Sundstrom, McPhee...Boom done. Playoffs first time ever.

The issue here is you need to know what you want to build and you need know what you need...Collecting random players from the draft or trades doesn't achieve anything. No vision means spinning in circles. And too many GM's just try to collect the best pieces available like this was some sort of fantasy keeper league.

 

[ScottyK]