Development Camp

[ULF_55]

I have no clue what you're talking about or how this is relevant to the current discussion.

The Jets deeming a player is not ready for the NHL so therefore the Canes sold too low on Webber?

You'd think that the Leafs had the best offer for Webber and that's why they got him.

You suggested the 'Canes would know Webber best.
People here were willing to give up a tonne for McGroarty because he was special, but Jets were saying no he isn't.
So, if 'Canes know Webber because they monitored him and therefore he is easily dumped, the Jets know McGroarty best and he isn't a NHL player at this point.
So 'Canes were right and the Jets were right. Fans were wrong.

 

[ULF_55]

If they are so limited that he spends most of the time in his own end, it is an issue.

It's why a player like Edmundson sucks, sure he hits a lot and blocks shots, but it is because he can't get the puck out of his own end.

I appreciate the well-thought-out response.

I won't comment on how good Capfriendly's prospect rankings are, I know it is fairly new so I have no clue.

I've read mixed things about his puck skills, but a good first pass is the bare minimum he should have, and if that is all he has, it's still an issue.

Like I said though, I've watched limit tape and his puck skills don't seem great, and his defensive awareness seems poor (which is a strength apparently).

He seems to just get his big body in a lane and hope it hits him, he doesn't anticipate plays well.

We will find out more with the Marlies this year, but just don't have high hopes, hoping I am wrong and I just saw bad games.

Well, you can have your opinion and as you admit insufficient evidence to make an informed decision, I'll just accept that professions watched enough to make that offer.

We accept there are no professionals here and at best amateurs that make evaluations based on lower extremities.

 

[ULF_55]

Not really sure what your expecting for puck skills from a 6 7 defensive specialist who was acquired for a 6th round pick he's the shiny new toy but I havnt heard anyone say anything about him really pumping his tires at all other than a interview with the media

No pumping but seems to be dumping based on next to nothing.

Perhaps if all you ever see is negative, close your eyes?

 

[horner]

Detroit is showing there 3 on 3 on YouTube for there development camp.
Will the Leafs be showing there scrimmage?

 

[notbias]

Well, you can have your opinion and as you admit insufficient evidence to make an informed decision, I'll just accept that professions watched enough to make that offer.

We accept there are no professionals here and at best amateurs that make evaluations based on lower extremities.

The professionals have said he has limitations regarding his skills, so we agree.

You suggested the 'Canes would know Webber best.
People here were willing to give up a tonne for McGroarty because he was special, but Jets were saying no he isn't.
So, if 'Canes know Webber because they monitored him and therefore he is easily dumped, the Jets know McGroarty best and he isn't a NHL player at this point.
So 'Canes were right and the Jets were right. Fans were wrong.

You can't argue that the Jets or Canes may be wrong and then in another post say you trust the scouts because they are pros.

 

[Stephen]

If they are so limited that he spends most of the time in his own end, it is an issue.

It's why a player like Edmundson sucks, sure he hits a lot and blocks shots, but it is because he can't get the puck out of his own end.

Safe to say you don’t understand defensive defensemen as a player type when you criticize a guy like Edmundson for blocking shots as a function of not being able to get the puck out. Especially the stout defensive play he provided Toronto in the 2024 playoffs. Your negative evaluation of Cade Webber is not welcomed.

 

[IPS]

Safe to say you don’t understand defensive defensemen as a player type when you criticize a guy like Edmundson for blocking shots as a function of not being able to get the puck out. Especially the stout defensive play he provided Toronto in the 2024 playoffs. Your negative evaluation of Cade Webber is not welcomed.

Very rarely do you get some super pairing like Toews-Makar that just dominates the possession game so much it doesn't matter what the opposition does.

Then you have reality, where you need 2 defensemen with different skillsets to make an effective pairing. Joel Edmundson can easily fill in the role of the brute of the pairing, he can handle the forecheck well, always make it difficult for the opposition to get the puck, and can always rely on him to clear the front of the net.

 

[ULF_55]

Safe to say you don’t understand defensive defensemen as a player type when you criticize a guy like Edmundson for blocking shots as a function of not being able to get the puck out. Especially the stout defensive play he provided Toronto in the 2024 playoffs. Your negative evaluation of Cade Webber is not welcomed.

Pretty obvious where it is coming from.

 

[Kiwi]

Safe to say you don’t understand defensive defensemen as a player type when you criticize a guy like Edmundson for blocking shots as a function of not being able to get the puck out. Especially the stout defensive play he provided Toronto in the 2024 playoffs. Your negative evaluation of Cade Webber is not welcomed.

He's not wrong, getting trapped in your own end isn't a great strategy if you like winning

Webber can block shots, be physical and offer some PK ability but he also needs to be able to advance the puck to his forwards and get the puck out of his own zone
That's something that makes players good defensively

 

[ULF_55]

He's not wrong, getting trapped in your own end isn't a great strategy if you like winning

Webber can block shots, be physical and offer some PK ability but he also needs to be able to advance the puck to his forwards and get the puck out of his own zone
That's something that makes players good defensively

Where is this trapped in own zone coming from?
Blocking shots?
Seems to indicate the only player involved in his own zone is Edmundson/Webber.
I guess the rest are waiting at center ice for a pass?

 

[Stephen]

He's not wrong, getting trapped in your own end isn't a great strategy if you like winning

Webber can block shots, be physical and offer some PK ability but he also needs to be able to advance the puck to his forwards and get the puck out of his own zone
That's something that makes players good defensively

This is generic commentary about big defensive defensemen who play a defensive role, blocking shots and stopping cycles. Put a shot blocker and cycle breaker beside a puck mover and you have a functional defensive pairing. Every time we get a guy like Schenn, Lyubushkin, Edmundson they play their role and we get the same trash commentary. And every time people are surprised they’re stout defenders who do a proper job.

 

[Stephen]

Where is this trapped in own zone coming from?
Blocking shots?
Seems to indicate the only player involved in his own zone is Edmundson/Webber.
I guess the rest are waiting at center ice for a pass?

Trapped in the defensive zone is Nu Hockey nonsense. You put a shot blocking cycle buster with a defensive partner who can skate and handle a puck and it’s basically one guy does the dirty work and the other transitions. You don’t put two Torey Krug’s together.

Check the logic of this garbage. Auston Matthews was a shot blocking leader as well. Is he a fridge who can’t do other things?

 

[Kiwi]

Where is this trapped in own zone coming from?
Blocking shots?
Seems to indicate the only player involved in his own zone is Edmundson/Webber.
I guess the rest are waiting at center ice for a pass?

He blocks a ton of shots, that indicates he doesn't have the puck and he's in his own end

I'm not hating the kid for it but he needs to develop a way of advancing the puck, that's how you become a very good player rather than a fringe bottom pair

This is generic commentary about big defensive defensemen who play a defensive role, blocking shots and stopping cycles. Put a shot blocker and cycle breaker beside a puck mover and you have a functional defensive pairing. Every time we get a guy like Schenn, Lyubushkin, Edmundson they play their role and we get the same trash commentary. And every time people are surprised they’re stout defenders who do a proper job.

No it's not, I've watched the tape of Webber

His skating is questionable, so he gives guys room instead of holding his own blueline even though he's gigantic and his puck skills aren't good enough to get him out of his own end and it needs work if he's going to be effective

His problem is he's nowhere near as good or effective as Schenn Edmundson or Lyubushkin

 

[notbias]

Safe to say you don’t understand defensive defensemen as a player type when you criticize a guy like Edmundson for blocking shots as a function of not being able to get the puck out. Especially the stout defensive play he provided Toronto in the 2024 playoffs. Your negative evaluation of Cade Webber is not welcomed.

He sucked in the playoffs, what did you watch?

He was a terrible PKer and sucked at 5v5.

You realize to block shots and to hit people, the other team needs to have the puck.

Can you show me in any way that Edmundson was good defensively for us?

Blocking shots is a good thing, but the reason for blocking shots is not always a good thing.

I am trying to be realistic about Webber, your blinder homerism is not welcomed.

Trapped in the defensive zone is Nu Hockey nonsense. You put a shot blocking cycle buster with a defensive partner who can skate and handle a puck and it’s basically one guy does the dirty work and the other transitions. You don’t put two Torey Krug’s together.

Check the logic of this garbage. Auston Matthews was a shot blocking leader as well. Is he a fridge who can’t do other things?

Edmundson was part of our worst pairing in the playoffs.

The stats tell me Matthews moves the puck up ice and generates chances, the stats tell me Edmundson does not.

 

[IPS]

This is generic commentary about big defensive defensemen who play a defensive role, blocking shots and stopping cycles. Put a shot blocker and cycle breaker beside a puck mover and you have a functional defensive pairing. Every time we get a guy like Schenn, Lyubushkin, Edmundson they play their role and we get the same trash commentary. And every time people are surprised they’re stout defenders who do a proper job.

Doesn't take much to see how much Bouchard benefited immensely from Ekholm being that reliable all-around prescence that really let him thrive playing his game. I can't even remember how many years we've been looking for a partner like that for Rielly.

 

[notbias]

Doesn't take much to see how much Bouchard benefited immensely from Ekholm being that reliable all-around prescence that really let him thrive playing his game. I can't even remember how many years we've been looking for a partner like that for Rielly.

Ekholm has puck skills, it is a terrible example.

Webber/Edmundson, the players being discussed, don't.

This is generic commentary about big defensive defensemen who play a defensive role, blocking shots and stopping cycles. Put a shot blocker and cycle breaker beside a puck mover and you have a functional defensive pairing. Every time we get a guy like Schenn, Lyubushkin, Edmundson they play their role and we get the same trash commentary. And every time people are surprised they’re stout defenders who do a proper job.

Lub and Schenn played well, and I've continually said this.

Schenn/Rielly was our best pairing in I don't know how long.

They were close to the best pairing in the entire post season.

 

[IPS]

Ekholm has puck skills, it is a terrible example.

Webber/Edmundson, the players being discussed, don't.

Cup winners still have lesser versions of that type of player.

Kulikov for example is a very similar player to Edmundson stylistically and still plays a good role for Florida. Every cup winner always has their own version of Edmundson.

 

[Stephen]

He blocks a ton of shots, that indicates he doesn't have the puck and he's in his own end

I'm not hating the kid for it but he needs to develop a way of advancing the puck, that's how you become a very good player rather than a fringe bottom pair



No it's not, I've watched the tape of Webber

His skating is questionable, so he gives guys room instead of holding his own blueline even though he's gigantic and his puck skills aren't good enough to get him out of his own end and it needs work if he's going to be effective

His problem is he's nowhere near as good or effective as Schenn Edmundson or Lyubushkin

The issue here isn’t actually Cade Webber, who so far has been a darkhorse prospect, but people who continually crap on defensive defensemen like an entire player type is on trial… but then are shut up every time the Leafs add one and they are miraculously a useful member of the team.

 

[notbias]

Cup winners still have lesser versions of that type of player.

Kulikov for example is a very similar player to Edmundson stylistically and still plays a good role for Florida. Every cup winner always has their own version of Edmundson.

He was a #6 and has more ability than Edmundson.

I don't think Liljegren helped Edmundson last year, if there is any argument for him, it is that.

I don't think there is any metric that makes Edmundson look good though.

 

[Stephen]

He sucked in the playoffs, what did you watch?

He was a terrible PKer and sucked at 5v5.

You realize to block shots and to hit people, the other team needs to have the puck.

Can you show me in any way that Edmundson was good defensively for us?

Blocking shots is a good thing, but the reason for blocking shots is not always a good thing.

I am trying to be realistic about Webber, your blinder homerism is not welcomed.



Edmundson was part of our worst pairing in the playoffs.

The stats tell me Matthews moves the puck up ice and generates chances, the stats tell me Edmundson does not.

Joel Edmundson’s job is to stop shots from getting to the net, break up scoring chances and leave it to others to get the damn puck out and create offense. If he did everything else he would be Victor Hedman.

And here’s another thing. Auston Matthews scored one damned goal vs Boston. So safe to say whatever their jobs were Edmundson did his job more than Matthews did.

 

[IPS]

He was a #6 and has more ability than Edmundson.

I don't think Liljegren helped Edmundson last year, if there is any argument for him, it is that.

I don't think there is any metric that makes Edmundson look good though.

Yeah, Liljegren was absolute hot garbage. Edmundson was a consistent physically punishing force and we ended up winning 5 and 6 in 2-1 games where Edmundson wasn't even on for any goals 5v5. Guys like Edmundson pay dividends over the course of the series.

 

[notbias]

Yeah, Liljegren was absolute hot garbage. Edmundson was a consistent physically punishing force and we ended up winning 5 and 6 in 2-1 games where Edmundson wasn't even on for any goals 5v5. Guys like Edmundson pay dividends over the course of the series.

Let's not pretend like Woll didn't win those games... but sure, we can say Edmundson contributed a lot.

In the other 5 games, he got scored on 4 times at even strength, that is a lot for such low scoring games.

We can forget his PKing because we will agree it was bad I am sure.

Edmundson didn't help us win though, he was a negative at 5v5, so he didn't pay dividends.

 

[notbias]

Joel Edmundson’s job is to stop shots from getting to the net, break up scoring chances and leave it to others to get the damn puck out and create offense. If he did everything else he would be Victor Hedman.

And here’s another thing. Auston Matthews scored one damned goal vs Boston. So safe to say whatever their jobs were Edmundson did his job more than Matthews did.

I don't think anyone's job should be to defer the puck to another player because they are too low skilled... seems like it would be a pretty ineffective pairing (it was).

 

[Kiwi]

The issue here isn’t actually Cade Webber, who so far has been a darkhorse prospect, but people who continually crap on defensive defensemen like an entire player type is on trial… but then are shut up every time the Leafs add one and they are miraculously a useful member of the team.

I have zero problem with defensive defenseman but for Webber to become one he's going to have to work on the things he has problems with

His gap control is poor, he doesn't hold his own blueline and he backs in on his goaltender because he's afraid of being beaten because of his mobility and he struggles to move the puck efficiently, it has to improve or he's going to be attacked because of it

He doesn't have to be Rielly but a good crisp first pass is a must, his partner shouldn't have to do all of that

 

[Martin Skoula]

I have zero problem with defensive defenseman but for Webber to become one he's going to have to work on the things he has problems with

His gap control is poor, he doesn't hold his own blueline and he backs in on his goaltender because he's afraid of being beaten because of his mobility and he struggles to move the puck efficiently, it has to improve or he's going to be attacked because of it

He doesn't have to be Rielly but a good crisp first pass is a must, his partner shouldn't have to do all of that

Another playoff of the stay at home D with no first pass getting every dump in thrown to his side because he can’t move the puck out without icing it should be enough to get people to figure it out. 8th time’s the charm as they say.