Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Big Trout]

The problem with keeping Hronek is that it's not about 1 season. He's on an 8 year deal at a 7+ mil cap hit. They needed to decide if he was a core part of their rebuild or not.

That's fair enough

 

[dekelikekocur]

I may not speak for the majority of Wings fans but this season is shaking down pretty much how it was predicted. Playing meaningful games down the stretch, close to the final wild card... unfortunately looking more likely they will miss as each game passes.

The positives - Core guys all look good, and signed to to nice deals for the most part. Larkin and Raymond have been more cold than hot since 4 nations, but that should not be an excuse. Other teams had their top guys at the same tournament. Edvinsson & Johansson look legit, Ed like a guy who will run his own top 4 pairing and AlJo as a real nice partner/low maintenance guy. Kasper looks like a gem and great value for where they ended up in that draft. The way he has played the second half of the season between the top line and now playing middle between Kane & Debrincat is encouraging. His tenacity and skill are both equal parts of what makes him effective.

Negatives - Bottom 6 is garbage and some of those guys need to play up the line up. Half the defense is also garbage although I personally do not mind Chiarot the majority of games. He is far from the problem that Gus, Holl, Petry have been. Goaltending has been hit or miss second half of the season but thanfully... no one is signed long term. Mrazek is always going to be hot & cold but after July 1st having him & Talbot signed to for 1 year may be the lesser of all the evils available of the goaltending market.

End of the day... Larkin, Raymond, Seider are all signed to nice long term deals. Cap flexibility for future years and they own all their own picks going forward. Likely this is finally the off season that most fans (or outside watchers) have been waiting for. Yzerman will get aggressive, he gave McLellan time to evaluate the roster and what guys can work and what guys need to be moved on from. Should have 22-23? million to work with in the off season without any other potential moves.. lots of flexibility to cut the fat off the team & improve.

Is it flashy and sexy? Nope. But progression has been steady and constantly moving forward so its going the right direction. This season seems lateral but the fact the young guys have stepped up and they have not sunk in the standings is enough to show the ship is still going in the right direction, for me anyways. The future of the team is not the current problem, its the place holders. Yzerman has not done a good job of finding guys that can produce results in those spots. Its strange to say but the Copp signing isn't looking too bad these days, the team sorely misses him and Compher has not been able to reproduce what he brought to the table so far to finish this season.

I am sure someone is going to tell me that is not good enough, the core is flawed, the Yzerplan gets too much of a free pass, drafting 10-15 is a trap you get stuck in for eternity, etc. , etc.

I honestly expected some regression this year as they brought up more kids. Not to the point Lalonde was showing, I also wonder if we had Todd from the beginning of the season how much different the point total would be currently.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

The problem with keeping Hronek is that it's not about 1 season. He's on an 8 year deal at a 7+ mil cap hit. They needed to decide if he was a core part of their rebuild or not.

Nevermind that Hronek was never going to be this Hronek playing behind Seider.

 

[Czechboy]

I mean if you just asked instead of stat watched you'd know that the clear top four since Todd took over has been Chiarot/Seider and Edvinsson/AlJo.

Gustafsson is hot garbage.

I didn't say Gustaffson was top 4.

 

[Dotter]

Maybe in 3-4 more years boys

I'll eat my hat if Red Wings win a cup in 3 years. Anything is possible.

 

[Fatass]

Nevermind that Hronek was never going to be this Hronek playing behind Seider.

Yup. Hronek is a perfect #2 with an elite #1. Imo Yzerman needs to find a left shot elite #1 D man so Seider can fill that #2 role that he’s best suited for.

 

[Mr Nogatco]

It’s not officially documented anywhere, but the rumbling that came from the Walman trade was nothing but positive from the locker room and coaching staff.

Not sure what he did to be so hated, but he somehow managed to become a cancer in the locker room. Maybe he stole Larkin’s cheerios one morning, who knows.

I liked him on the wings, thought he was fun to watch with his cheeky gritty celebration, but when I heard from an ex-wings player in the offseason who was apart of the team that somebody (who he couldn’t name) that played on the blue line really caused lockeroom issues in the midst of the playoff run, I knew right away who it was when the trade had happened.

Good for San Jose on capitalizing on the opportunity. That organization made out like bandits in that trade. Turned one times problem into gold.

Am I concerned about the move the GM made to keep the locker room and coaching staff happy? No not at all. It was a hard decision, but he was traded for futures for a reason. That reason is to remind the locker room that no one man is greater than the team.

Also, I don’t think Detroit would have ever been able to receive a first rounder for Walman in the series of any events anyways. So at the end of the day even neglecting the fact that he was potentially a big problem in the room, it’s not as bad as some make it out to be.

weird how he was "potentially a big problem in the room" but you can definitively say "he was a cancer" who was "hated"

 

[Dr Quincy]

I may not speak for the majority of Wings fans but this season is shaking down pretty much how it was predicted. Playing meaningful games down the stretch, close to the final wild card... unfortunately looking more likely they will miss as each game passes.

The positives - Core guys all look good, and signed to to nice deals for the most part. Larkin and Raymond have been more cold than hot since 4 nations, but that should not be an excuse. Other teams had their top guys at the same tournament. Edvinsson & Johansson look legit, Ed like a guy who will run his own top 4 pairing and AlJo as a real nice partner/low maintenance guy. Kasper looks like a gem and great value for where they ended up in that draft. The way he has played the second half of the season between the top line and now playing middle between Kane & Debrincat is encouraging. His tenacity and skill are both equal parts of what makes him effective.

Negatives - Bottom 6 is garbage and some of those guys need to play up the line up. Half the defense is also garbage although I personally do not mind Chiarot the majority of games. He is far from the problem that Gus, Holl, Petry have been. Goaltending has been hit or miss second half of the season but thanfully... no one is signed long term. Mrazek is always going to be hot & cold but after July 1st having him & Talbot signed to for 1 year may be the lesser of all the evils available of the goaltending market.

End of the day... Larkin, Raymond, Seider are all signed to nice long term deals. Cap flexibility for future years and they own all their own picks going forward. Likely this is finally the off season that most fans (or outside watchers) have been waiting for. Yzerman will get aggressive, he gave McLellan time to evaluate the roster and what guys can work and what guys need to be moved on from. Should have 22-23? million to work with in the off season without any other potential moves.. lots of flexibility to cut the fat off the team & improve.

Is it flashy and sexy? Nope. But progression has been steady and constantly moving forward so its going the right direction. This season seems lateral but the fact the young guys have stepped up and they have not sunk in the standings is enough to show the ship is still going in the right direction, for me anyways. The future of the team is not the current problem, its the place holders. Yzerman has not done a good job of finding guys that can produce results in those spots. Its strange to say but the Copp signing isn't looking too bad these days, the team sorely misses him and Compher has not been able to reproduce what he brought to the table so far to finish this season.

I am sure someone is going to tell me that is not good enough, the core is flawed, the Yzerplan gets too much of a free pass, drafting 10-15 is a trap you get stuck in for eternity, etc. , etc.

If I said before the start of the year that DET would be 7 pts worse than last year's team I think most DRW fans would say I was being a hater and totally underestimating the steps their young players would make.

It's ridiculous to say that the progression has been steady and constantly moving forward when it literally is worse than the prior year.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

If I said before the start of the year that DET would be 7 pts worse than last year's team I think most DRW fans would say I was being a hater and totally underestimating the steps their young players would make.

It's ridiculous to say that the progression has been steady and constantly moving forward when it literally is worse than the prior year.

Nope, you should've seen our free agency thread and add the Walman trade we were extremely miffed. Some of us expected a regression with more rookies.

I will say the pieces that are important are doing well here, so when Gustafsson, Holl, Compher, Chiarot or whatever free agent stinks. It's a big who cares at this point. I care about Raymond, Seider, Kasper, Edvinsson, Johansson, and Soderblom. Things that will matter going forward.

 

[saska sault]

If I said before the start of the year that DET would be 7 pts worse than last year's team I think most DRW fans would say I was being a hater and totally underestimating the steps their young players would make.

It's ridiculous to say that the progression has been steady and constantly moving forward when it literally is worse than the prior year.

They improved in the standings every year since Yzerman took over, youth got injected into the team this season and some into bigger roles. Progression points wise this year has not continued but for the fans that watch every or most of the games, you can see the trend is continuing that they are a better team or at least learning to be one. They play a more sound game, blowouts are not a weekly occurrence (3rd period collapses are a problem). The team was lifeless before Lalonde was fired but with McLellan they look alot more "legit" most nights.

The youth is not the problem, they are the bright spot. A lot of Wings fans knew last year they achieved close to the maximum of that rosters potential under Lalonde. The Yzerplan is not without flaws, mainly the players who are signed this year and next... The core guys, the youth, the prospects, the cap flexibility and the ownership of their own picks going forward are all positives +++... you can see why their is the part of the base (myself included) that is still excited and thinks the team is going to be pretty good in the near future. I also see why fans of other teams don't see much substance to the team or their future potential. It is not exactly a flashy way they are building up.

 

[Dr Quincy]

They improved in the standings every year since Yzerman took over,

Sure if we just forget this year exists.

And the youth has shown that as of yet they can't make this team a playoff team. And while you can be optimistic about those players, you also have to realize that Dylan Larkin is going to be 29. List the #1Cs over 30 that have won a Cup in the last 10 years?

So in 2 or 3 years when Seider and Edvinsson are at their best and ASP and Cossa are playing... who is going to be the #1C?

 

[JediOrderPizza]

Sure if we just forget this year exists.

And the youth has shown that as of yet they can't make this team a playoff team. And while you can be optimistic about those players, you also have to realize that Dylan Larkin is going to be 29. List the #1Cs over 30 that have won a Cup in the last 10 years?

So in 2 or 3 years when Seider and Edvinsson are at their best and ASP and Cossa are playing... who is going to be the #1C?

Kind of impossible to predict what prospects do or do not pan out 2-3 years out. Or what players shake out via trades.

 

[MoneyManny]

These "HF professional couch critics" said Yzerman is underwhelming at drafting, then you look at the roster and see 25% of the starting roster is his picks. That's not even counting Mazur since he got injured on his first NHL shift.

Then look at their pool and they still have a ton more prospects drooling at the mouth to be difference makers on the DRWs; Cossa, ASP, Danielsson, MBN, Buchelnikov, Plante, Lombardi, Kiiskinen, Augustine.

And as of today I would NOT rule out Kasper ever becoming a solid #1 center in the NHL, or an elite #2 center. The kid is already playing #2 center since Copp's injury and is proving he has the chops @ 20 years old.

Yeah, a team that has been rebuilding for over 6 years SHOULD have drafted players on the roster and prospects waiting for their chance.

If you compare Yzerman's rebuild with others in the same time frame, he did a decent job but he's obviously not the genius mastermind y'all pretend he is.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

Yeah, a team that has been rebuilding for over 6 years SHOULD have drafted players on the roster and prospects waiting for their chance.

If you compare Yzerman's rebuild with others in the same time frame, he did a decent job but he's obviously not the genius mastermind y'all pretend he is.

It's difficult to keep realistic feelings and expectations for someone who is besides Howe thee biggest face of the Detroit Red Wings ever. A lot of us were sour on the Seider pick, so this supposed blind allegiance is a bit bullshit and we have given him hell for the past free agency wiffs.

Hard to really compare some rebuilds, one team gets the worst record and Lucas Raymond at 4th overall. Some have Michkov drop in their lap, others Demidov at 5th overall.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Yup. Hronek is a perfect #2 with an elite #1. Imo Yzerman needs to find a left shot elite #1 D man so Seider can fill that #2 role that he’s best suited for.

Stop drinking.

 

[saska sault]

Sure if we just forget this year exists.

And the youth has shown that as of yet they can't make this team a playoff team. And while you can be optimistic about those players, you also have to realize that Dylan Larkin is going to be 29. List the #1Cs over 30 that have won a Cup in the last 10 years?

So in 2 or 3 years when Seider and Edvinsson are at their best and ASP and Cossa are playing... who is going to be the #1C?

You cut off my post before the part I mentioned that this year was not the continued trend in point progression and why most people who follow the team closely aren't shocked. Best outcome this season was likely a WC spot.

You can see why a lot of people are critical of the Wings this season and lately. You can also see why some fans of Detroit aren't pushing the panic button. The team is progressing in the standings (minus this season), core is locked up, kids are improving, prospects are doing well overall, cap flexibility, ownership of draft picks. You can't hit on every single aspect during any team build up immediately...

Larkin will be 29 all of next year, how many years does he have left ? Who knows. Its not crazy to think he is himself for another 3 to 5 years. A 70ish point 2 way guy. If they had drafted a young center over Seider or Edvinsson, the question would be flipped to who is going to run the back end, or be between the pipes. Kasper is looking pretty fine as a rookie, and Danielson is following a similar path in the AHL.

It may not be flashy, time will tell. In the meantime we can continue to beat the dead horse of how the Wings have come close to peaking and the downfall will continue.

 

[theVladiator]

Sure if we just forget this year exists.

And the youth has shown that as of yet they can't make this team a playoff team. And while you can be optimistic about those players, you also have to realize that Dylan Larkin is going to be 29. List the #1Cs over 30 that have won a Cup in the last 10 years?

So in 2 or 3 years when Seider and Edvinsson are at their best and ASP and Cossa are playing... who is going to be the #1C?

Oh, well, since we are using random facts about last 10 years playoff winners as the predictor of future success, we are doomed anyway. Since Detroit isn't among last 10 years' Cup winners, we really do not have any hope for the future, do we. But you know what? Those impossible odds be damned. We may go down, but I say we go down swingin'. And, have some fun along the way.

 

[rahad]

It's difficult to keep realistic feelings and expectations for someone who is besides Howe thee biggest face of the Detroit Red Wings ever. A lot of us were sour on the Seider pick, so this supposed blind allegiance is a bit bullshit and we have given him hell for the past free agency wiffs.

Hard to really compare some rebuilds, one team gets the worst record and Lucas Raymond at 4th overall. Some have Michkov drop in their lap, others Demidov at 5th overall.

I agreed with you. Rebuild sometime depend on luck. Chicago winning Bedard lottery. Michkov being avaialble at #7 for Flyers or Demidov/Hutson for Habs. Best example is probably Colorado drafting Makar.

Detroit haven been very unlucky. Always dropping in draft ranking.

 

[Fatass]

Stop drinking.

Clearly the Detroit downfall (thread purpose) has a lot to do with Yzerman’s failure to build a roster that puts players into the best position for them to succeed. Seider is an ideal #2 D man. The club obviously struggles with him playing the 1 role. Imagine Quinn Hughes on the Wings (whom they could have drafted) playing the #1 with Seider as the #2.

 

[Pavels Dog]

If I said before the start of the year that DET would be 7 pts worse than last year's team I think most DRW fans would say I was being a hater and totally underestimating the steps their young players would make.

You're creating this narrative in your own mind. A step back was always a realistic outcome. Even then, the team has shown potential under Mclellan and not many games ago they were on a ~95 point pace.

If you compare Yzerman's rebuild with others in the same time frame, he did a decent job but he's obviously not the genius mastermind y'all pretend he is.

Who is calling Yzerman a genius mastermind?

Also, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Detroit being better than Ottawa, Montreal etc. last year should already prove that not everything is necessarily linear.

So in 2 or 3 years when Seider and Edvinsson are at their best and ASP and Cossa are playing... who is going to be the #1C?

Do you think Larkin will fall off a cliff at 30?

Yes, it's a relevant question who can carry that torch when Larkin does start to significantly regress. It's not a question that needs to be answered today.

It's ridiculous to say that the progression has been steady and constantly moving forward when it literally is worse than the prior year.

Season isn't over. And despite a recent tough stretch the team's pts% under McLellan is better than it was last season. If they end up with a worse overall record than last season I think most Wings fans will still be optimistic because a full season of McLellan and the young players being more experienced should put the team in a better position to be competitive next year. Kasper looking great at 2C is far more relevant for the forward progress of the rebuild than Gustafsson and Holl losing the team games is.

 

[Dubi Doo]

If I said before the start of the year that DET would be 7 pts worse than last year's team I think most DRW fans would say I was being a hater and totally underestimating the steps their young players would make.

It's ridiculous to say that the progression has been steady and constantly moving forward when it literally is worse than the prior year.

Yeah. They flopped this year. At least they didn't flop as hard as my Sabres. Ottawa at least seems to have turned it around.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Clearly the Detroit downfall (thread purpose) has a lot to do with Yzerman’s failure to build a roster that puts players into the best position for them to succeed. Seider is an ideal #2 D man. The club obviously struggles with him playing the 1 role. Imagine Quinn Hughes on the Wings (whom they could have drafted) playing the #1 with Seider as the #2.

Yes. You've voiced this opinion several times.

You're still wrong, but you've made sure people have heard it.

 

[895]

I don’t think Yzerman has done a great job but a lot of it is bad luck.

Also am I wrong or did Seider and Larkin not really improve much? They were pretty much good players right from the beginning leading people to think they might develop into elite players but they just stayed at the ‘good’ level. Lots of time left for Seider but I think Larkin is pretty much topped out.

 

[GMR]

If I said before the start of the year that DET would be 7 pts worse than last year's team I think most DRW fans would say I was being a hater and totally underestimating the steps their young players would make.

It's ridiculous to say that the progression has been steady and constantly moving forward when it literally is worse than the prior year.

No, many Wings fans last year thought this year would be a drop. We knew several vets who produced points would be departing, to be replaced with unknowns. Especially on defense with Walman and Gostisbehere being key scorers last year.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

I don’t think Yzerman has done a great job but a lot of it is bad luck.

Also am I wrong or did Seider and Larkin not really improve much? They were pretty much good players right from the beginning leading people to think they might develop into elite players but they just stayed at the ‘good’ level. Lots of time left for Seider but I think Larkin is pretty much topped out.

Larkin I think is pretty much what he is, if he didn't get hurt last season he hits 40 goals easily.

Seider I think he will have some 60-70 pt years ahead of him since he is still only 23. I also think just saying he is stuck at the "good" level is false.

I believe there is more 5on5 offense to be seen, and we saw him unchained a little when Lalonde was running Edvinsson-Seider. But they had to go back to Chiarot so the other pairing wasn't absolutely thrashed. Back to the old ball and chain for Mo.