Hippasus
1,9,45,165,495,1287,
I think he could be a good defensively-oriented coach for the Red Wings. To this point, I think this team isn't being built for offense.
Detroit Redwings Downfall
- Thread starter Dbarthnek96
- Start date
Oddbob
Registered User
- Jan 21, 2016
- 16,866
- 11,440
Plenty of Wings fans think we suck, 4 or 5 who speak on the main board as though we do nothing wrong don't represent a fan base. Difference is, most Wings fans have realistic expectations of where we should be after the terrible team Holland left in place. Most of the people arguing against Detroit aren't arguing realistically from the standpoint of how quick you can recover from being bad, when you both don't win the lottery and the drafts during this time have been relatively weak. Look at Edmonton, they have McDrai and rebuilt for longer than Detroit with much better drafts to get players in and they still haven't won a Cup yet, that with 2 of the top 5ish players in the game.
Your a Sens fan, you should know it takes forever to get good, and look at Buffalo, they have been rebuilding way longer with good picks and it still isn't working. Reality is, unless things go swimmingly in all categories, it takes 5-10 years to get from really really bad to being good. There are far more examples of teams that full rebuilt needing at least 7-10 years. Colorado is doing awesome now, but it also took a pretty long rebuild, and again, they have MacKinnon and Makar who are again 2 of the top 10 guys in the game. Detroit got Raymond and Seider which is awesome, but most of Steve's picks haven't made the NHL yet, which could really change the outlook of our team in 1-3 years.
There is plenty of Wings fans on HFWings that think we suck and the whole world is falling apart, they simply don't post on the main boards.
End of the day, these two threads don't need to be left open as there isn't honest good discussion being had by about 95% of the people making posts.
Samsquanch
Raging Bull Squatch
And yet Pinto is still probably worth more than any Detroit roster player not named Seider, Edvinson or Raymond..... But in reality he is like the 9th or 10th most valuable part of Ottawa's core group.
Do you understand how different these two teams are in terms of where they want their core players to be? Even San Jose is a better (much better) looking team than Detroit as of today, and they managed to do this despite Ottawa taking Stutzle and Norris away from them during their rebuild.
Not having big stars to trade back in 2017 is a piss poor excuse for Lucas Raymond being your most noteworthy/dynamic player after that many years of rebuilding.
This is the honest to god truth that you may not want to accept, or keep tip-toeing around. No amount of good coaching or UFA MacGyvering is going to fix that glaring problem of yours.
Detroit had a prime Larkin (Karlsson) to trade for kings ransom. But they held on to him, and now (quite predictably) the timing of the Yzerplan and Larkin's peak are not at all in alignment together. Detroit also had a prime Bertuzzi, and yet their fans even needlessly argued that he was as good as Brady Tkachuk at one point not all that long ago.....But instead of focusing on their maximizing assets while they still had real value, they are where they are today.
You cant claim that you were right and good to try and "compete" with some band-aid UFA signings during a total rebuild - and then be where you are today (basically hopelessly lost as a franchise) -and not admit that mistakes were made along the way LOL.
Even the smartest homer cant talk his way out of this one.
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Oddbob
Registered User
- Jan 21, 2016
- 16,866
- 11,440
WOWZA!
Shane 9 pts Pinto is worth more than Dylan Larkin???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
DeBrincat is also worth WAY more.
I will also wait, while you tell me which forwards the Wings could have drafted but didn't that are putting up more points than Raymond? If you can give me a list of more than 1 or 2 I would be surprised. Wings can only draft what is available to be drafted from.
Mentioning Bertuzzi is pathetic. Have you looked at what he has done since leaving? He isn't doing well and certainly didn't bring back much if we had dealt him slightly earlier. We got a 1st and 4th for him, which is about as much as we could have gotten.
Samsquanch
Raging Bull Squatch
Possible reality check for you, but I think you would be surprised at the small list of teams lining up to take Larkin and his contract on. Dollars would be coming back. Lots of them - and some of them your not going to like at all.
DeBrincat is a negative asset at this point. Not worth his contract term or cap hit to a contending team. Hes a one trick miniature pony.
The wings have missed out on an absurd amount of picks outside of the first round. Thats where they completely failed. Every rebuilding team they are competing against was able to find and/or acquire some great talent outside of the first round.
Like funny you mention Bertuzzi again
(a player Detroit fans tried to champion against young Brady Tkachuk instead of selling him while his value was high during the covid years) - that first round pick you got for him was traded to Ottawa for none other than your boy Alex DeBrincat!!!And then we took that pick and sent it back to Boston (along with Koripasalo lol) for Ulmark!! Who are you taking for the next 4 years, Ulmark or DeBrincat?? Oooops.
Again deal with the reality of Detroit today however you feel is appropriate.
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Oddbob
Registered User
- Jan 21, 2016
- 16,866
- 11,440
DeBrincat isn't a negative asset at all, what a dumb statement. Also like how you completely glossed over your Pinto is better than most including Larkin. Also, as 100% expected you provided no actual names the Wings should have gotten with Yzerman that they didn't. Larkin and DeBrincat are both much more value than Pinto.
So a contending team gives us a couple late firsts and a decent prospect for example for Larkin. How is that speeding up the Wings winning anytime soon? Late 1st round picks are all basically lower tier players. No team with high 1sts is trading for Larkin as that doesn't fit their teams situations.
Ullmark has nothing to do with the Wings, and it is quite sad that a Sens fan is talking any shit at all. What have the Ottawa Senators ever done? 1 Finals appearance in their whole run as a team. Even with the Wings long run out of the playoffs we still have more playoff games and Cup Wins the past 30 seasons than Ottawa, so maybe worry about your team.
Again I ask you, provide a list of actual better players the Wings could have drafted but didn't. I'll wait while you reply with more nonsense and no viable list.
There’s a decent core in there, but it’s shocking how much they’re spending on mid to bad players. Im talking:
Copp @ 5.63
Compher @ 5.1
Tarasenko @ 4.75
Kane @ 4.0
Holl @ 3.4
That’s a lot of overpaid third liners and a botton pair dman.
Copp @ 5.63
Compher @ 5.1
Tarasenko @ 4.75
Kane @ 4.0
Holl @ 3.4
That’s a lot of overpaid third liners and a botton pair dman.
swiftwin
★SUMMER.OF.STEVE★
- Jul 26, 2005
- 24,410
- 14,180
It's like they acquired a bunch of vets to help mentor the kids, but forgot they don't have any kids.
Samsquanch
Raging Bull Squatch
MarkusNaslund19
Registered User
- Dec 28, 2005
- 5,824
- 8,849
The reason this thread is still open is because of the unique relationship lots of Wings fans have with their GM, and their emotional sunk-cost fallacy.
Yzerman is a Detroit icon to a degree that might exist in like 5 other cities in the NHL. Guys who were incredible players, great leaders, and bled for one franchise.
You have Pittsburgh with Lemieux and Crosby (Malkin too, but not a leader and would never be considered for a high up hockey ops position in North America).
Colorado with Sakic.
Boston with Orr (ignoring Chicago blip), Bourque (Colorado stint notwithstanding).
Caps with Ovechkin, but nobody thinks he'll be GM one day.
And that's practically it.
So I think for a lot of fans, asking them to accept some bleak realities about a childhood hero is a lot to ask.
I'm not even saying he's a horrible GM or that he should be fired, but it's now clear he doesn't walk on water like his playing career, Tampa stint, and then Seider pick implied.
-
Then you have the emotional sunk-cost fallacy. There was a lot of hero worship and dunking by fanboys suggesting that now that Stevie was here, all would be well and the good times would roll again in Detroit. Nobody thought it would be immediate, but people were very very confident, often obnoxiously so.
-
So then there becomes this false dichotomy.
Where he's either a genius or he 'sux'. But most of us are arguing that he's just average, and so he's having average (to below average) results.
A lot of us are saying that Yzerman is a decent to average GM. Wings fans rightfully point out that there aren't a TON of obvious draft blunders and shrug saying, 'what should he have done?"
Okay, a couple of things.
1. The fact we are having this conversation means you have already lost. If someone had predicted in April of 2019 that your team would be sitting here, with this quality of prospects, still wondering what the best way out of the wilderness was, you would have accused them of trolling. Don't act like it's 'part of the plan'.
We've literally watched several teams go from being relevant, to irrelevant, to passing Detroit's rebuild within that same time frame.
2. The free agent signings are hilarious. Yes, you want some leadership to insulate the youth. But there's very little youth currently playing and the team sucks and is listless. Nobody thought the Andrew Copp, J.T. Compher, Ben Chiarot, or Justin Holl deals would be anything but hilarious. And lo and behold...
-
And even the draft argument. Okay, so you can't point to a million amazing first rounders that they have missed on. But what about later rounds?
Or, if he's turning water into wine, what about trading up for prospects that only he knows were going to be this good?
Or what about trading for a youngish player whom another team has given up on but whom Yzerman the God can see promise in?
Why didn't they discover a Dylan Strome type?
On a lower level, why didn't he find a Dakota Joshua or a Kiefer Sherwood?
The Jake Walman saga is seriously hilarious.
Letting go of Gostisbehere and Walman at the same time is hilarious.
'We let go of two puck movers and now we can't breakout....hmmm, can't put my finger on what's going wrong here'.
-
Now, with that said, he's not terrible and I'm not saying he should be fired.
Edvinsson and Seider is an incredible pairing, ASP looks promising, Danielson and Kasper could be good middle six centers.
Larkin and Raymond are good players and could comprise the core of a second line, or either could be the worst player on an amazing first line on a cup winner (they are decent first liners in the NHL, but the previous listing is where they would be on a cup winner).
He has decent goalie prospects.
-
So if Wings fans said, "Yeah, this has been disappointing and he isn't a super genius, but he's still slowly accruing value and I still believe in the vision" that would get a lot less judgment and criticism than the Wings fans (certainly not all, maybe not even most, but the loudest and most prominent) who suggest that it's 'all part of the plan' and 'they knew it all along because a decade ago the team was bleak' and that everyone expressing doubt is 'a hater who is jealous of the Wings success 20 years ago'.
Yzerman is a Detroit icon to a degree that might exist in like 5 other cities in the NHL. Guys who were incredible players, great leaders, and bled for one franchise.
You have Pittsburgh with Lemieux and Crosby (Malkin too, but not a leader and would never be considered for a high up hockey ops position in North America).
Colorado with Sakic.
Boston with Orr (ignoring Chicago blip), Bourque (Colorado stint notwithstanding).
Caps with Ovechkin, but nobody thinks he'll be GM one day.
And that's practically it.
So I think for a lot of fans, asking them to accept some bleak realities about a childhood hero is a lot to ask.
I'm not even saying he's a horrible GM or that he should be fired, but it's now clear he doesn't walk on water like his playing career, Tampa stint, and then Seider pick implied.
-
Then you have the emotional sunk-cost fallacy. There was a lot of hero worship and dunking by fanboys suggesting that now that Stevie was here, all would be well and the good times would roll again in Detroit. Nobody thought it would be immediate, but people were very very confident, often obnoxiously so.
-
So then there becomes this false dichotomy.
Where he's either a genius or he 'sux'. But most of us are arguing that he's just average, and so he's having average (to below average) results.
A lot of us are saying that Yzerman is a decent to average GM. Wings fans rightfully point out that there aren't a TON of obvious draft blunders and shrug saying, 'what should he have done?"
Okay, a couple of things.
1. The fact we are having this conversation means you have already lost. If someone had predicted in April of 2019 that your team would be sitting here, with this quality of prospects, still wondering what the best way out of the wilderness was, you would have accused them of trolling. Don't act like it's 'part of the plan'.
We've literally watched several teams go from being relevant, to irrelevant, to passing Detroit's rebuild within that same time frame.
2. The free agent signings are hilarious. Yes, you want some leadership to insulate the youth. But there's very little youth currently playing and the team sucks and is listless. Nobody thought the Andrew Copp, J.T. Compher, Ben Chiarot, or Justin Holl deals would be anything but hilarious. And lo and behold...
-
And even the draft argument. Okay, so you can't point to a million amazing first rounders that they have missed on. But what about later rounds?
Or, if he's turning water into wine, what about trading up for prospects that only he knows were going to be this good?
Or what about trading for a youngish player whom another team has given up on but whom Yzerman the God can see promise in?
Why didn't they discover a Dylan Strome type?
On a lower level, why didn't he find a Dakota Joshua or a Kiefer Sherwood?
The Jake Walman saga is seriously hilarious.
Letting go of Gostisbehere and Walman at the same time is hilarious.
'We let go of two puck movers and now we can't breakout....hmmm, can't put my finger on what's going wrong here'.
-
Now, with that said, he's not terrible and I'm not saying he should be fired.
Edvinsson and Seider is an incredible pairing, ASP looks promising, Danielson and Kasper could be good middle six centers.
Larkin and Raymond are good players and could comprise the core of a second line, or either could be the worst player on an amazing first line on a cup winner (they are decent first liners in the NHL, but the previous listing is where they would be on a cup winner).
He has decent goalie prospects.
-
So if Wings fans said, "Yeah, this has been disappointing and he isn't a super genius, but he's still slowly accruing value and I still believe in the vision" that would get a lot less judgment and criticism than the Wings fans (certainly not all, maybe not even most, but the loudest and most prominent) who suggest that it's 'all part of the plan' and 'they knew it all along because a decade ago the team was bleak' and that everyone expressing doubt is 'a hater who is jealous of the Wings success 20 years ago'.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
First off - Raymond is behind only Hughes and Stützle among U24 (i.e. 2019 draft onwards) in NHL scoring. Who are the supposedly much more notewothy/dynamic players that Yzerman should have drafted? You bring up Shane Pinto as if he's a superstar, he's simply not.
Second - It's not a poor excuse. It's reality. Detroit entered their rebuild after a 25 year playoff streak and after riding out the competitive years of their core players. Pittsburgh's rebuild will likely also take time, the only real remedy being major lottery luck. As an Ottawa fan I understand you've never experienced following a team that is able to keep their star players around and compete for cups, but that doesn't make the ideal way to build a hockey team to trade away guys like Zibanejad and Stone as they enter their prime years and go compete for cups elsewhere.
That's simply not true.
That's what the vast majority of fans are saying though. The ones who say absolutely nothing has gone wrong is the 0.0001%.
Fact is the majority of critics (the people who keep this thread going page after page after page) are simply not okay with settling for "Yzerman isn't perfect, but the overall trajectory of the rebuild still looks promising". They need Yzerman to be a total fraud.
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Lampedampe
Registered User
- Feb 26, 2015
- 2,439
- 1,101
Yeah this is of course a fair and accurate observation.
But hey, if it makes you feel good about yourself. This is akin to having fake arguments in the shower.
deca guard
Registered User
NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
Alfredsson is an assistant coach in Ottawa now.
He’s also been involved with management in the past.
As you say, it’s a double-edged sword as he can walk on water in the Nation’s Capital but what if he isn’t as good as a coach or a manager?
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Dotter
THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
1. Yzerman isn't a schmuck off the streets. He's a proven winner with Tampa. He had his blunders just like any other GM in sports history. He's just had more good than bad.
2. The vet placeholder signings are placeholder signings. It's more of a timeline until youth shall be injected and less about winning cups "and going for the gusto now". That's your disconnect.
3. Dylan Strome was drafted back in 2015. Yzerman wasn't GM in Detroit. I understand why you had to go all the way back to 2015 to use this example. See 4:
4. Yzerman's drafting 2-7 in 2019 and 2020 appear to be meh. But looking at those drafts, it was meh for every NHL franchise. Which is why you had to go all the way back to 2015 to use Dylan Strome as an example.
5. I've followed the Walman trade intensively and there's a reason why he was exiled. You make not like it, but sometimes there's a "greater good" to things. For being this amazing person and player, he was already healthied on SJSs. Ghost wanted a longer contract and it didn't fit the timeline, if he'd taken a year less he'd be DRWs right now. Refer back to #2.
6. I'm with you tho- I wish DRWs were competing with the Devils right now in the standings. But then you look at why they are not and you realize there has been a little misteps along the way, but the real reason is lack of talent coming out of the 2019 and 2020 draft, and no lottery luck.
*If Ken Holland did a better job drafting back in 2015, 16, 17 and 2018, Wings would be a completely different team right now.
The only thing I think Yzerman could have done better would be weaponizing cap space better and not hiring Laldone as coach. I see no path how weaponizing cap space would put this team over the top. But sure, a few upticks better. Not enough to lose any sleep over.
Walman trade should have been grounds for termination. Waiving Walman would have saved a 2nd. Not to mention that it appears that there were several teams interested in Walman.
The FA contracts are absolutely brutal. Contrast them with with those Grier has that are expiring and Grier has a lot of trade pieces for the deadline. Granlund could fetch a late first, Kunin will fetch a mid/late round pick, Sturm is one of the top face off men in the league and should fetch a mid/late round pick, Ceci as an experienced RD should fetch a late round pick, and Rutta could fetch a 6th 7th.
Vanacek and Fourgiev won’t fetch anything but they’ll be gone.
Why hasn’t Yzerman used any retention slots? Grier used all three to jettison bad contracts and one of three is freeing up after this year and I’m sure the Sharks will take on salary for a cap dump and pick(s)/prospect(s) in the offseason.
The FA contracts are absolutely brutal. Contrast them with with those Grier has that are expiring and Grier has a lot of trade pieces for the deadline. Granlund could fetch a late first, Kunin will fetch a mid/late round pick, Sturm is one of the top face off men in the league and should fetch a mid/late round pick, Ceci as an experienced RD should fetch a late round pick, and Rutta could fetch a 6th 7th.
Vanacek and Fourgiev won’t fetch anything but they’ll be gone.
Why hasn’t Yzerman used any retention slots? Grier used all three to jettison bad contracts and one of three is freeing up after this year and I’m sure the Sharks will take on salary for a cap dump and pick(s)/prospect(s) in the offseason.
deca guard
Registered User
''IT APPEARS'' ? do you actually think yzerman didnt try to trade him for peanuts ? i guarantee he did but there were no takers . but yzerman remains disrespected for not airing the dirty laundry to the public as there was obviously some issue off ice that nhl brass types wont talk about as thats their culture
deca guard
Registered User
only difference being yzerman already built a dynasty in tbay and just shot the lights out 3 drafts in a row seiderraymondedvinsson but of course to troll he dont know what hes doing
Dr Quincy
Registered User
- Jun 19, 2005
- 29,458
- 11,907
Challenge accepted:
1. Don't package 2nd rd picks with defensemen that other team would give you an asset for.
2. Don't sign thoroughly mediocre players to bad contracts that everyone said was a bad idea the second they were done.
He gave a 2nd round pick for no reason so yes, I tend to believe the reports that he didn’t shop Walman around.l and as I mentioned there have a few reports that have suggested that was a market for Walman.
deca guard
Registered User
if you actually believe yzerman thru away a 2nd round pic without trying to trade himfor peanuts theres no need for further discussion
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