Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Dr Quincy]

if you actually believe yzerman thru away a 2nd round pic without trying to trade himfor peanuts theres no need for further discussion

Did he try waiving him?

If you think he tried waiving him and nobody took him, there's no need for further discussion.

 

[thebestnic]

only difference being yzerman already built a dynasty in tbay and just shot the lights out 3 drafts in a row seiderraymondedvinsson but of course to troll he dont know what hes doing

It's cute your whole core fit in a single word I'll give you that

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

That’s just….so, so bad….

Yea i get the idea behind signing vets, but they signed crappy anchors that no one else would ever want. Whereas for example Grier is getting great value out of guys like Granlund, Blackwood (traded a 6th for), Ceci and is going to get nice value back at the deadline. Anyone that says signing crappy immovable vets was part of the plan is full of it. It's awful asset and cap management.

 

[Golden_Jet]

message to arm chair gms from yzerman

Tell Steve to read this thread then.
If he’s saying that, guess he’s feeling the heat

 

[Fatass]

Tell Steve to read this thread then.
If he’s saying that, guess he’s feeling the heat

Yup. He sure sounds like a guy who
Is just a tad embarrassed about how his club is doing? He’s a multi cup winning HHOF player. He did wonders for Tampa as their manager. His touch ain’t working in Detroit. And he knows it. That clearly bothers him A LOT.

 

[norrisnick]

Tell Steve to read this thread then.
If he’s saying that, guess he’s feeling the heat

That's not feeling heat. That's annoyance.

 

[Borlag]

As a Wings fan, I tend to lean on believing the reports that there would have been takers for Walman. And it is an undeniable fact that Walman was not put in waivers, where he could've been thrown out without the loss of that pick. Had there still not been any takers, then I could understand tossing in the sweetener if you really had to get rid of him. That's 100% on Yzerman.

What is also 100% on Yzerman is failing to adress the loss of not just 1 but two actually useful defensemen in Walman and Ghost. There was an attempt to replace one of them, that attempt failed. It could be said that that's a mistake by the pro scouting department. Was that mistake adressed? No, the scouts still work for the Wings. That's on Yzerman and so is not adressing the loss of the other serviceable defenseman. It could be understandable IF someone were brought up to actually play in the bottom two pairings, but here we are with Holl, Chiarot and Petry still playing. Having Johansson playing roughly half the games is hardly promoting from within, which leads us again to not having replaced those two with adequate replacements.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Challenge accepted:

1. Don't package 2nd rd picks with defensemen that other team would give you an asset for.
2. Don't sign thoroughly mediocre players to bad contracts that everyone said was a bad idea the second they were done.

1. Bad trade. Do you believe one 2nd round pick is the difference between perennial cup contender and bottomfeeder?
2. Okay. ”Just sign great players to awesome contracts” I guess? 31 other teams have no say in this?

Whereas for example Grier is getting great value out of guys like Granlund, Blackwood (traded a 6th for), Ceci and is going to get nice value back at the deadline.

Yeah Ceci is going to be absolutely massive. Wow. They'll probably get multiple unprotected 1st round picks for him. Get a grip. If Yzerman moves Chiarot for a 5th round pick is that a great signing suddenly? You're talking about things that have minimal impact on the big picture.

 

[Dr Quincy]

1. Bad trade. Do you believe one 2nd round pick is the difference between perennial cup contender and bottomfeeder?
2. Okay. ”Just sign great players to awesome contracts” I guess? 31 other teams have no say in this?

1. Moving of goalposts duly noted. That wasn't the challenge. Not a single person has ever said that there is one move that would turn this bad team into a Cup contender. The poster (and Yzerman) that I was responding to asked "If you have a better way, feel free to share". So yeah, I'd say it's better to not trade 2nd round picks away unnecessarily when at worst you could've waived Walman and had him gone for nothing, and more realistically, gotten an asset for him.

2. Nice strawman argument. I didn't say they should sign great players to awesome contracts. Who are you quoting in those quotation marks? I didn't say that, but I guess it's easy to put silly words that you've imagined in your head and tilted at them rather than have a actual debate with somehing someone says. What I said (note the accurate way to quote here) "Don't sign thoroughly mediocre players to bad contracts that everyone said was a bad idea the second they were done." I didn't say anything about signing great players, just not signing crappy ones that most people (except for the YzerfanBoyz) said were bad signings on day 1. Are they good signings? Are you happy with them?

3. You also did the same thing wtih the other poster you quoted in the same post that you responded to me. Made up arguments the person didn't make. I guess that's a tactic if you don't actually thing you can debate someone's actual words.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

1. Yzerman isn't a schmuck off the streets. He's a proven winner with Tampa. He had his blunders just like any other GM in sports history. He's just had more good than bad.

2. The vet placeholder signings are placeholder signings. It's more of a timeline until youth shall be injected and less about winning cups "and going for the gusto now". That's your disconnect.

3. Dylan Strome was drafted back in 2015. Yzerman wasn't GM in Detroit. I understand why you had to go all the way back to 2015 to use this example. See 4:

4. Yzerman's drafting 2-7 in 2019 and 2020 appear to be meh. But looking at those drafts, it was meh for every NHL franchise. Which is why you had to go all the way back to 2015 to use Dylan Strome as an example.

5. I've followed the Walman trade intensively and there's a reason why he was exiled. You make not like it, but sometimes there's a "greater good" to things. For being this amazing person and player, he was already healthied on SJSs. Ghost wanted a longer contract and it didn't fit the timeline, if he'd taken a year less he'd be DRWs right now. Refer back to #2.

6. I'm with you tho- I wish DRWs were competing with the Devils right now in the standings. But then you look at why they are not and you realize there has been a little misteps along the way, but the real reason is lack of talent coming out of the 2019 and 2020 draft, and no lottery luck.

*If Ken Holland did a better job drafting back in 2015, 16, 17 and 2018, Wings would be a completely different team right now.

The only thing I think Yzerman could have done better would be weaponizing cap space better and not hiring Laldone as coach. I see no path how weaponizing cap space would put this team over the top. But sure, a few upticks better. Not enough to lose any sleep over.

Uh, I wasn’t talking about the Strome draft. I was talking about when the Hawks gave up on him and any team could have had him for free and the caps took him. Why didn’t super genius Yzerman jump on that (or other examples like that)?

 

[FreeToShareWithMeOk]

1. Yzerman isn't a schmuck off the streets. He's a proven winner with Tampa. He had his blunders just like any other GM in sports history. He's just had more good than bad.

He came to Tampa inheriting Stamkos, Hedman, St. Louis and Killorn, and proceeded to draft Brett Connolly over Tarasenko and a ton of other good players, Vladislav Namestnikov over Kucherov, Slater Koekkoek over Forsberg, Vasilevsky and a ton of other good players, Anthony DeAngelo over Brayden Point. The fact that he was able to pick up Kucherov, Vasilevsky and Point because other teams passed on them as well isn't so much a point in his favor as an indictment of other teams. Now he's doing the same exact thing as in Tampa, except he's just drafting the Koekkoeks and Connollys and not getting bailed out by his scouting staff in the later rounds.

2. The vet placeholder signings are placeholder signings. It's more of a timeline until youth shall be injected and less about winning cups "and going for the gusto now". That's your disconnect.

He could have easily signed good vets or traded for them for pennies on the dollar as many capably managed teams had in that time. Since Yzerman became GM you had Stephenson, Nichushkin, Tage Thompson, Verhaeghe, Forsling, Reinhart, Montour, Bjorkstrand, Bennett, Dylan Strome, Barbashev, Toews, Zub, Weegar, Middleton, Dubois, Walman, etc., etc. be cheaply acquired or cheaply available. Yzerman just went for sludge

3. Dylan Strome was drafted back in 2015. Yzerman wasn't GM in Detroit. I understand why you had to go all the way back to 2015 to use this example. See 4:

Dylan Strome was available to anyone 2 years ago lol.

4. Yzerman's drafting 2-7 in 2019 and 2020 appear to be meh. But looking at those drafts, it was meh for every NHL franchise. Which is why you had to go all the way back to 2015 to use Dylan Strome as an example.

Dylan Strome was available to anyone 2 years ago. Yzerman traded away the Wyatt Johnston pick that he got from his one robbery that was the Mantha deal, adding to it so he could draft Cossa. That about sums up his drafting.

5. I've followed the Walman trade intensively and there's a reason why he was exiled. You make not like it, but sometimes there's a "greater good" to things. For being this amazing person and player, he was already healthied on SJSs. Ghost wanted a longer contract and it didn't fit the timeline, if he'd taken a year less he'd be DRWs right now. Refer back to #2.

If you followed the Walman trade as intensively as you claim you would actually know the reason he was "healthied" in SJ and would know that it doesn't help your point at all.

6. I'm with you tho- I wish DRWs were competing with the Devils right now in the standings. But then you look at why they are not and you realize there has been a little misteps along the way, but the real reason is lack of talent coming out of the 2019 and 2020 draft, and no lottery luck.

*If Ken Holland did a better job drafting back in 2015, 16, 17 and 2018, Wings would be a completely different team right now.

The only thing I think Yzerman could have done better would be weaponizing cap space better and not hiring Laldone as coach. I see no path how weaponizing cap space would put this team over the top. But sure, a few upticks better. Not enough to lose any sleep over.

Holland left Yzerman with a plethora of picks including a top 10 pick and a ton of cap space as well. Not Hollands fault Yzerman decided what his rebuild really needed was setting up for life 3 versions of Andrew Copp and 4 version of Justin Holl. And he was lucky as hell that he had a one of a kind coach in Jon Cooper to promote in Tampa because his default setting is Guy Boucher/Derek Lalonde/Todd McLellan

 

[ricky0034]

message to arm chair gms from yzerman

Copp $5,625,000
Compher 5,100,000
Tarasenko 4,750,000
Kane 4,000,000
Chiarot 4,750,000
Holl 3,400,000
Petry 2,343,750
Gustafsson 2,000,000
Husso 3,600,000

someone who is good at Hockey please help me budget this my team is dying


buy less bad players


no

 

[deca guard]

Copp $5,625,000
Compher 5,100,000
Tarasenko 4,750,000
Kane 4,000,000
Chiarot 4,750,000
Holl 3,400,000
Petry 2,343,750
Gustafsson 2,000,000
Husso 3,600,000

someone who is good at Hockey please help me budget this my team is dying


buy less bad players


no

for what to build an iffy team that just gets in only to be crushed , while at same time seriously lessening the chances of drafting a great player whom might become the next red wing superstar ? yzermans attempting to build his 2nd dynasty , and i guarantee he knows way better than you how to do it !

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Stevie needs to tank

 

[FreeToShareWithMeOk]

Walman trade should have been grounds for termination. Waiving Walman would have saved a 2nd. Not to mention that it appears that there were several teams interested in Walman.

The FA contracts are absolutely brutal. Contrast them with with those Grier has that are expiring and Grier has a lot of trade pieces for the deadline. Granlund could fetch a late first, Kunin will fetch a mid/late round pick, Sturm is one of the top face off men in the league and should fetch a mid/late round pick, Ceci as an experienced RD should fetch a late round pick, and Rutta could fetch a 6th 7th.

Vanacek and Fourgiev won’t fetch anything but they’ll be gone.

Why hasn’t Yzerman used any retention slots? Grier used all three to jettison bad contracts and one of three is freeing up after this year and I’m sure the Sharks will take on salary for a cap dump and pick(s)/prospect(s) in the offseason.

Keep in mind the main reason Yzerman jettisoned Walman as promptly as he did was so that he would have the cap space on stand by trade for JACOB TROUBA because that's what his D corps of Holl, Petry, Maatta and Chiarot was missing.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

for what to build an iffy team that just gets in only to be crushed , while at same time seriously lessening the chances of drafting a great player whom might become the next red wing superstar ? yzermans attempting to build his 2nd dynasty , and i guarantee he knows way better than you how to do it !

He should have weaponized his cap to get assets back instead of signing all these chitters to medium term in the name of team *culture*. He can't even sell off half of these vet assets at the deadline because of their extra years

 

[FreeToShareWithMeOk]

He should have weaponized his cap to get assets back instead of signing all these chitters to medium term in the name of team *culture*. He can't even sell off half of these vet assets at the deadline because of their extra years and NMC's

you don't understand, the real sweet spot is 6th to 15th worst in the league, that's how dynasties are built

 

[deca guard]

you don't understand, the real sweet spot is 6th to 15th worst in the league, that's how dynasties are built

i guess you werent a nhl fan during the yzerman dynasty building era in tbay ? you know , and should thusly have respect for his talent as a gm ? while also not being aware on how good many of his draft pix are doing including cossa whom he drafted at 15 and asp at 17 ?

 

[thebestnic]

Keep in mind the main reason Yzerman jettisoned Walman as promptly as he did was so that he would have the cap space on stand by trade for JACOB TROUBA because that's what his D corps of Holl, Petry, Maatta and Chiarot was missing.

He knows better than us is what they keep repeating. It's Bergevin and his PlayStation all over again

 

[FreeToShareWithMeOk]

i guess you werent a nhl fan during the yzerman dynasty building era in tbay ? you know , and should thusly have respect for his talent as a gm ? while also not being aware on how good many of his draft pix are doing including cossa whom he drafted at 15 and asp at 17 ?

Yes, I already went over it. Inheriting Stamkos, Hedman, St. Louis, Killorn, then drafting Brett Connolly, Vladislav Namestnikov, Slater Koekkoek, Jonathan Drouin, Tony DeAngelo when he's Yzermanning in the first round all over the draft table. First GM to ever build a dynasty team that didn't win anything while he was there.

Cossa is amazing, who needs Wyatt Johnston when you can get the future Anthony Stolarz (while avoiding the rookie mistake of signing the present one when he finally arrives 12 years into his career).

 

[Dotter]

Uh, I wasn’t talking about the Strome draft. I was talking about when the Hawks gave up on him and any team could have had him for free and the caps took him. Why didn’t super genius Yzerman jump on that (or other examples like that)?

Interesting point. Why didn't Steve Yzerman sign FA Dylan Strome after their whopping 74 point season vs Capitals who were coming off a 100 point season signed him?

That's a good question. Do we know for sure Yzerman didn't pitch an offer? I get it though, why would Strome want to go play for a crap team like Capitals!?! Clearly he must be an idiot.

"or other examples like that" - Another brilliant observation!

 

[deca guard]

Yes, I already went over it. Inheriting Stamkos, Hedman, St. Louis, Killorn, then drafting Brett Connolly, Vladislav Namestnikov, Slater Koekkoek, Jonathan Drouin, Tony DeAngelo when he's Yzermanning in the first round all over the draft table. First GM to ever build a dynasty team that didn't win anything while he was there.

Cossa is amazing, who needs Wyatt Johnston when you can get the future Anthony Stolarz (while avoiding the rookie mistake of signing the present one when he finally arrives 12 years into his career).

lets forget about his good draft pix in tbay n now detroit ? and trades , and cups his roster brought to tbay though . while acting like all gms dont miss on pik after pik as its extremely difficult drafting nhlers

 

[FreeToShareWithMeOk]

lets forget about his good draft pix in tbay n now detroit ? and trades , and cups his roster brought to tbay though . while acting like all gms dont miss on pik after pik as its extremely difficult drafting nhlers

His "good picks" were guys his scouting staff shoved down his throat after he Yzermanned all over the top picks Tampa made and who by some miracle were still there later in the draft. Again, he's the guy who values Namestnikov over Kucherov, Koekkoek over Vasilevsky and DeAngelo over Point. Now all of a sudden there's no Kucherov or Point for his scouting staff to gift him and you get a parade of prospects that don't look better than what their biggest competitors will be icing in the next 5+ years. For example, unless Ottawa falls apart from the inside like New York did, he doesn't have the players on the horizon to challenge their core.

I'm not even talking full on rebuilds like what San Jose or Montreal are doing. There's a number of organizations that have built better for the future while aiming to contend over the last 6 years.

 

[Dotter]

He came to Tampa inheriting Stamkos, Hedman, St. Louis and Killorn, and proceeded to draft Brett Connolly over Tarasenko and a ton of other good players, Vladislav Namestnikov over Kucherov, Slater Koekkoek over Forsberg, Vasilevsky and a ton of other good players, Anthony DeAngelo over Brayden Point. The fact that he was able to pick up Kucherov, Vasilevsky and Point because other teams passed on them as well isn't so much a point in his favor as an indictment of other teams. Now he's doing the same exact thing as in Tampa, except he's just drafting the Koekkoeks and Connollys and not getting bailed out by his scouting staff in the later rounds.



He could have easily signed good vets or traded for them for pennies on the dollar as many capably managed teams had in that time. Since Yzerman became GM you had Stephenson, Nichushkin, Tage Thompson, Verhaeghe, Forsling, Reinhart, Montour, Bjorkstrand, Bennett, Dylan Strome, Barbashev, Toews, Zub, Weegar, Middleton, Dubois, Walman, etc., etc. be cheaply acquired or cheaply available. Yzerman just went for sludge


Dylan Strome was available to anyone 2 years ago lol.


Dylan Strome was available to anyone 2 years ago. Yzerman traded away the Wyatt Johnston pick that he got from his one robbery that was the Mantha deal, adding to it so he could draft Cossa. That about sums up his drafting.

If you followed the Walman trade as intensively as you claim you would actually know the reason he was "healthied" in SJ and would know that it doesn't help your point at all.


Holland left Yzerman with a plethora of picks including a top 10 pick and a ton of cap space as well. Not Hollands fault Yzerman decided what his rebuild really needed was setting up for life 3 versions of Andrew Copp and 4 version of Justin Holl. And he was lucky as hell that he had a one of a kind coach in Jon Cooper to promote in Tampa because his default setting is Guy Boucher/Derek Lalonde/Todd McLellan

Lol. Anything that worked out in Yzerman's favor in Tampa was dumb luck and/or scouts bailing him out. Anything that didn't work out was "poor GMing". Got it!

If you followed the Walman trade as intensively as you claim you would actually know the reason he was "healthied" in SJ and would know that it doesn't help your point at all.

Yep. And I read Walman's "version" of "his" story. Fun statistic: did you know everyone in jail is innocent? I mean, that's what the convict sitting in his jail cell will tell you.

I have some prime swampland in Florida to sell you! You seem like the perfect buyer for this rare opportunity...

 

[ClydeLee]

i guess you werent a nhl fan during the yzerman dynasty building era in tbay ? you know , and should thusly have respect for his talent as a gm ? while also not being aware on how good many of his draft pix are doing including cossa whom he drafted at 15 and asp at 17 ?

You mean when he was routinely failing each year? Not locking up his elite talents making them, openly admit in interviews they were nervous in the playoffs (Stamkos said that finally went away in 2022) When he kept showing from 2016-2019 he wasn't successful at taking this team another step?

I always complained about those things and how he was overrated back then. In Detroit too me, he's too slow to make big decisions or of two-minds. Took way too long to finally decide, Hronek, Mantha, Zadina, Bertuzzi, and others weren't good/fit their timeline. And he didn't get enough to improve their future or high end talent odds for more than his 1st year. If he made more moves to the future right away, they'd be no further from a playoff birth with even more future talent on the way or on the roster already.