Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Hippasus]

Would be interested to see LA/EDM/SJ fans reaction here. Seems like his reputation is quite mixed

I think he could be a good defensively-oriented coach for the Red Wings. To this point, I think this team isn't being built for offense.

 

[Oddbob]

Are you new here?

My god.

I’d say the major difference is the fans of those teams admitted that they suck.

Plenty of Wings fans think we suck, 4 or 5 who speak on the main board as though we do nothing wrong don't represent a fan base. Difference is, most Wings fans have realistic expectations of where we should be after the terrible team Holland left in place. Most of the people arguing against Detroit aren't arguing realistically from the standpoint of how quick you can recover from being bad, when you both don't win the lottery and the drafts during this time have been relatively weak. Look at Edmonton, they have McDrai and rebuilt for longer than Detroit with much better drafts to get players in and they still haven't won a Cup yet, that with 2 of the top 5ish players in the game.

Your a Sens fan, you should know it takes forever to get good, and look at Buffalo, they have been rebuilding way longer with good picks and it still isn't working. Reality is, unless things go swimmingly in all categories, it takes 5-10 years to get from really really bad to being good. There are far more examples of teams that full rebuilt needing at least 7-10 years. Colorado is doing awesome now, but it also took a pretty long rebuild, and again, they have MacKinnon and Makar who are again 2 of the top 10 guys in the game. Detroit got Raymond and Seider which is awesome, but most of Steve's picks haven't made the NHL yet, which could really change the outlook of our team in 1-3 years.

There is plenty of Wings fans on HFWings that think we suck and the whole world is falling apart, they simply don't post on the main boards.

End of the day, these two threads don't need to be left open as there isn't honest good discussion being had by about 95% of the people making posts.

 

[Samsquanch]

Pinto has 9 points this season.
Yes, they've not had an Eichel or Erik Karlsson to trade for assets.

And yet Pinto is still probably worth more than any Detroit roster player not named Seider, Edvinson or Raymond..... But in reality he is like the 9th or 10th most valuable part of Ottawa's core group.

Do you understand how different these two teams are in terms of where they want their core players to be? Even San Jose is a better (much better) looking team than Detroit as of today, and they managed to do this despite Ottawa taking Stutzle and Norris away from them during their rebuild.

Not having big stars to trade back in 2017 is a piss poor excuse for Lucas Raymond being your most noteworthy/dynamic player after that many years of rebuilding.

This is the honest to god truth that you may not want to accept, or keep tip-toeing around. No amount of good coaching or UFA MacGyvering is going to fix that glaring problem of yours.

Detroit had a prime Larkin (Karlsson) to trade for kings ransom. But they held on to him, and now (quite predictably) the timing of the Yzerplan and Larkin's peak are not at all in alignment together. Detroit also had a prime Bertuzzi, and yet their fans even needlessly argued that he was as good as Brady Tkachuk at one point not all that long ago.....But instead of focusing on their maximizing assets while they still had real value, they are where they are today.

You cant claim that you were right and good to try and "compete" with some band-aid UFA signings during a total rebuild - and then be where you are today (basically hopelessly lost as a franchise) -and not admit that mistakes were made along the way LOL.

Even the smartest homer cant talk his way out of this one.

 

[Oddbob]

And yet Pinto is still probably worth more than any Detroit roster player not named Seider, Edvinson or Raymond..... But in reality he is like the 9th or 10th most valuable part of Ottawa's core group.

Do you understand how different these two teams are in terms of where they want their core players to be? Even San Jose is a better (much better) looking team than Detroit as of today, and they managed to do this despite Ottawa taking Stutzle and Norris away from them during their rebuild.

Not having big stars to trade back in 2017 is a piss poor excuse for Lucas Raymond being your most dynamic player after that many years of rebuilding.

This is the honest to god truth that you may not want to accept, or keep tip-toeing around. No amount of good coaching or UFA Mc'guivering is going to fix that glaring problem of yours.

Detroit had a prime Larkin (Karlsson) to trade for kings ransom. But they held on to him, and now (quite predictably) the timing of the Yzerplan and Larkin's peak are not at all in alignment together. Detroit also had a prime Bertuzzi, and their fans needlessly argued that he was as good as Brady Tkachuk at pone point not all that long ago.....But instead of focusing on their maximizing assets while they still had real value, they are where they are today.

WOWZA!

Shane 9 pts Pinto is worth more than Dylan Larkin???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

DeBrincat is also worth WAY more.

I will also wait, while you tell me which forwards the Wings could have drafted but didn't that are putting up more points than Raymond? If you can give me a list of more than 1 or 2 I would be surprised. Wings can only draft what is available to be drafted from.

Mentioning Bertuzzi is pathetic. Have you looked at what he has done since leaving? He isn't doing well and certainly didn't bring back much if we had dealt him slightly earlier. We got a 1st and 4th for him, which is about as much as we could have gotten.

 

[Samsquanch]

WOWZA!

Shane 9 pts Pinto is worth more than Dylan Larkin???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

DeBrincat is also worth WAY more.

I will also wait, while you tell me which forwards the Wings could have drafted but didn't that are putting up more points than Raymond? If you can give me a list of more than 1 or 2 I would be surprised. Wings can only draft what is available to be drafted from.

Mentioning Bertuzzi is pathetic. Have you looked at what he has done since leaving? He isn't doing well and certainly didn't bring back much if we had dealt him slightly earlier. We got a 1st and 4th for him, which is about as much as we could have gotten.

Possible reality check for you, but I think you would be surprised at the small list of teams lining up to take Larkin and his contract on. Dollars would be coming back. Lots of them - and some of them your not going to like at all.

DeBrincat is a negative asset at this point. Not worth his contract term or cap hit to a contending team. Hes a one trick miniature pony.

The wings have missed out on an absurd amount of picks outside of the first round. Thats where they completely failed. Every rebuilding team they are competing against was able to find and/or acquire some great talent outside of the first round.

Like funny you mention Bertuzzi again (a player Detroit fans tried to champion against young Brady Tkachuk instead of selling him while his value was high during the covid years) - that first round pick you got for him was traded to Ottawa for none other than your boy Alex DeBrincat!!!

And then we took that pick and sent it back to Boston (along with Koripasalo lol) for Ulmark!! Who are you taking for the next 4 years, Ulmark or DeBrincat?? Oooops.

Again deal with the reality of Detroit today however you feel is appropriate.

 

[Oddbob]

Possible reality check for you, but I think you would be surprised at the small list of teams lining up to take Larkin and his contract on. Dollars would be coming back. Lots of them - some of which would not be taken by serious teams.

DeBrincat is a negative asset at this point. Not worth his contract term or cap hit to a contending team. Hes a small one trick pony.

The wings have missed out on an absurd amount of picks outside of the first round. Thats where they completely failed. Every rebuilding team they are competing against was able to find and/or acquire some great talent outside of the first round.

Like funny you mention Bertuzzi (again a player Detroit fans tried to champion against young Brady Tkachuk instead of selling him while his value was high during the covid years) - that first round pick you got for him was traded to Ottawa for none other than your boy Alex DeBrincat!!!

And then we took that pick and sent it back to Boston (along with Koripasalo lol) for Ulmark!! Who are you taking, Ulmark or DeBrincat?? Oooops.

Again deal with the reality however you feel is appropriate.

DeBrincat isn't a negative asset at all, what a dumb statement. Also like how you completely glossed over your Pinto is better than most including Larkin. Also, as 100% expected you provided no actual names the Wings should have gotten with Yzerman that they didn't. Larkin and DeBrincat are both much more value than Pinto.

So a contending team gives us a couple late firsts and a decent prospect for example for Larkin. How is that speeding up the Wings winning anytime soon? Late 1st round picks are all basically lower tier players. No team with high 1sts is trading for Larkin as that doesn't fit their teams situations.

Ullmark has nothing to do with the Wings, and it is quite sad that a Sens fan is talking any shit at all. What have the Ottawa Senators ever done? 1 Finals appearance in their whole run as a team. Even with the Wings long run out of the playoffs we still have more playoff games and Cup Wins the past 30 seasons than Ottawa, so maybe worry about your team.

Again I ask you, provide a list of actual better players the Wings could have drafted but didn't. I'll wait while you reply with more nonsense and no viable list.

 

[Samsquanch]

DeBrincat isn't a negative asset at all, what a dumb statement. Also like how you completely glossed over your Pinto is better than most including Larkin. Also, as 100% expected you provided no actual names the Wings should have gotten with Yzerman that they didn't. Larkin and DeBrincat are both much more value than Pinto.

So a contending team gives us a couple late firsts and a decent prospect for example for Larkin. How is that speeding up the Wings winning anytime soon? Late 1st round picks are all basically lower tier players. No team with high 1sts is trading for Larkin as that doesn't fit their teams situations.

Ullmark has nothing to do with the Wings, and it is quite sad that a Sens fan is talking any shit at all. What have the Ottawa Senators ever done? 1 Finals appearance in their whole run as a team. Even with the Wings long run out of the playoffs we still have more playoff games and Cup Wins the past 30 seasons than Ottawa, so maybe worry about your team.

Again I ask you, provide a list of actual better players the Wings could have drafted but didn't. I'll wait while you reply with more nonsense and no viable list.

You can wait all you'd like. Thats time and effort I wont give you. The Red Wings draft so, so good. The best. Keep it up please, on behalf of the rest of the Atlantic.

Glad your happy with Debrincat, maybe I didnt see it when he was in Ottawa. I think Im more happy with Ulmark, though.

Cheers and happy holidays my diminutive division rival (PS I do love how much we hate each other in such a short amount of time as division mates).

PSS when we are debating Pinto and Larkins value, you've already lost friend. Think big picture.

 

[um]

There’s a decent core in there, but it’s shocking how much they’re spending on mid to bad players. Im talking:

Copp @ 5.63
Compher @ 5.1
Tarasenko @ 4.75
Kane @ 4.0
Holl @ 3.4

That’s a lot of overpaid third liners and a botton pair dman.

 

[swiftwin]

There’s a decent core in there, but it’s shocking how much they’re spending on mid to bad players. Im talking:

Copp @ 5.63
Compher @ 5.1
Tarasenko @ 4.75
Kane @ 4.0
Holl @ 3.4

That’s a lot of overpaid third liners and a botton pair dman.

It's like they acquired a bunch of vets to help mentor the kids, but forgot they don't have any kids.

 

[thefutures]

You can wait all you'd like. Thats time and effort I wont give you. The Red Wings draft so, so good. The best. Keep it up please, on behalf of the rest of the Atlantic.

Glad your happy with Debrincat, maybe I didnt see it when he was in Ottawa. I think Im more happy with Ulmark, though.

Cheers and happy holidays my diminutive division rival (PS I do love how much we hate each other in such a short amount of time as division mates).

PSS when we are debating Pinto and Larkins value, you've already lost friend. Think big picture.

Rival LOL. Nobody in Detroit cares about the step child of ontario

 

[Samsquanch]

Rival LOL. Nobody in Detroit cares about the step child of ontario

Nobody.

That's who wants it - in Detroit anyways. We've seen 22yr old Tkachuk ask their entire bench this very same question - and it seemingly fell on deaf ears....Nobody wanted any part of it.

 

[Pizza!Pizza!]

Nobody.

That's who wants it - in Detroit anyways. We've seen 22yr old Tkachuk ask their entire bench this very same question - and it seemingly fell on deaf ears....Nobody wanted any part of it.

 

[Miller Time]

There’s a decent core in there, but it’s shocking how much they’re spending on mid to bad players. Im talking:

Copp @ 5.63
Compher @ 5.1
Tarasenko @ 4.75
Kane @ 4.0
Holl @ 3.4

That’s a lot of overpaid third liners and a botton pair dman.

Trust the Yzerplan...

Not sure wings fans have any other option at this point? Hopefully for them, the next 6 years are far better than the first 6

 

[Mooserton]

 

[Samsquanch]

Colorado fan, this post tracks hard.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

The reason this thread is still open is because of the unique relationship lots of Wings fans have with their GM, and their emotional sunk-cost fallacy.

Yzerman is a Detroit icon to a degree that might exist in like 5 other cities in the NHL. Guys who were incredible players, great leaders, and bled for one franchise.

You have Pittsburgh with Lemieux and Crosby (Malkin too, but not a leader and would never be considered for a high up hockey ops position in North America).

Colorado with Sakic.

Boston with Orr (ignoring Chicago blip), Bourque (Colorado stint notwithstanding).

Caps with Ovechkin, but nobody thinks he'll be GM one day.

And that's practically it.

So I think for a lot of fans, asking them to accept some bleak realities about a childhood hero is a lot to ask.
I'm not even saying he's a horrible GM or that he should be fired, but it's now clear he doesn't walk on water like his playing career, Tampa stint, and then Seider pick implied.
-

Then you have the emotional sunk-cost fallacy. There was a lot of hero worship and dunking by fanboys suggesting that now that Stevie was here, all would be well and the good times would roll again in Detroit. Nobody thought it would be immediate, but people were very very confident, often obnoxiously so.
-

So then there becomes this false dichotomy.

Where he's either a genius or he 'sux'. But most of us are arguing that he's just average, and so he's having average (to below average) results.

A lot of us are saying that Yzerman is a decent to average GM. Wings fans rightfully point out that there aren't a TON of obvious draft blunders and shrug saying, 'what should he have done?"

Okay, a couple of things.

1. The fact we are having this conversation means you have already lost. If someone had predicted in April of 2019 that your team would be sitting here, with this quality of prospects, still wondering what the best way out of the wilderness was, you would have accused them of trolling. Don't act like it's 'part of the plan'.

We've literally watched several teams go from being relevant, to irrelevant, to passing Detroit's rebuild within that same time frame.

2. The free agent signings are hilarious. Yes, you want some leadership to insulate the youth. But there's very little youth currently playing and the team sucks and is listless. Nobody thought the Andrew Copp, J.T. Compher, Ben Chiarot, or Justin Holl deals would be anything but hilarious. And lo and behold...
-

And even the draft argument. Okay, so you can't point to a million amazing first rounders that they have missed on. But what about later rounds?

Or, if he's turning water into wine, what about trading up for prospects that only he knows were going to be this good?
Or what about trading for a youngish player whom another team has given up on but whom Yzerman the God can see promise in?
Why didn't they discover a Dylan Strome type?
On a lower level, why didn't he find a Dakota Joshua or a Kiefer Sherwood?

The Jake Walman saga is seriously hilarious.

Letting go of Gostisbehere and Walman at the same time is hilarious.

'We let go of two puck movers and now we can't breakout....hmmm, can't put my finger on what's going wrong here'.

-

Now, with that said, he's not terrible and I'm not saying he should be fired.

Edvinsson and Seider is an incredible pairing, ASP looks promising, Danielson and Kasper could be good middle six centers.
Larkin and Raymond are good players and could comprise the core of a second line, or either could be the worst player on an amazing first line on a cup winner (they are decent first liners in the NHL, but the previous listing is where they would be on a cup winner).
He has decent goalie prospects.
-

So if Wings fans said, "Yeah, this has been disappointing and he isn't a super genius, but he's still slowly accruing value and I still believe in the vision" that would get a lot less judgment and criticism than the Wings fans (certainly not all, maybe not even most, but the loudest and most prominent) who suggest that it's 'all part of the plan' and 'they knew it all along because a decade ago the team was bleak' and that everyone expressing doubt is 'a hater who is jealous of the Wings success 20 years ago'.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Not having big stars to trade back in 2017 is a piss poor excuse for Lucas Raymond being your most noteworthy/dynamic player after that many years of rebuilding.

First off - Raymond is behind only Hughes and Stützle among U24 (i.e. 2019 draft onwards) in NHL scoring. Who are the supposedly much more notewothy/dynamic players that Yzerman should have drafted? You bring up Shane Pinto as if he's a superstar, he's simply not.

Second - It's not a poor excuse. It's reality. Detroit entered their rebuild after a 25 year playoff streak and after riding out the competitive years of their core players. Pittsburgh's rebuild will likely also take time, the only real remedy being major lottery luck. As an Ottawa fan I understand you've never experienced following a team that is able to keep their star players around and compete for cups, but that doesn't make the ideal way to build a hockey team to trade away guys like Zibanejad and Stone as they enter their prime years and go compete for cups elsewhere.

We've literally watched several teams go from being relevant, to irrelevant, to passing Detroit's rebuild within that same time frame.

That's simply not true.

So if Wings fans said, "Yeah, this has been disappointing and he isn't a super genius, but he's still slowly accruing value and I still believe in the vision" that would get a lot less judgment and criticism than the Wings fans (certainly not all, maybe not even most, but the loudest and most prominent) who suggest that it's 'all part of the plan' and 'they knew it all along because a decade ago the team was bleak' and that everyone expressing doubt is 'a hater who is jealous of the Wings success 20 years ago'.

That's what the vast majority of fans are saying though. The ones who say absolutely nothing has gone wrong is the 0.0001%.
Fact is the majority of critics (the people who keep this thread going page after page after page) are simply not okay with settling for "Yzerman isn't perfect, but the overall trajectory of the rebuild still looks promising". They need Yzerman to be a total fraud.

 

[Lampedampe]

So if Wings fans said, "Yeah, this has been disappointing and he isn't a super genius, but he's still slowly accruing value and I still believe in the vision" that would get a lot less judgment and criticism than the Wings fans (certainly not all, maybe not even most, but the loudest and most prominent) who suggest that it's 'all part of the plan' and 'they knew it all along because a decade ago the team was bleak' and that everyone expressing doubt is 'a hater who is jealous of the Wings success 20 years ago'.

Yeah this is of course a fair and accurate observation.

But hey, if it makes you feel good about yourself. This is akin to having fake arguments in the shower.