Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Hale The Villain]

They're a playoff team with a better coach. Should have made it last year and the roster isn't that much worse this year.

However, they cannot contend with any coach. That's a different matter.

I disagree.

Little star scoring talent on the roster, a defense with massive question marks beside Seider, and Talbot/Lyon shouldn't exactly be counted on to provide elite level goaltending, even if they've managed to do that through the first month of the season.

They have a bottom 5-10 roster on paper and playoffs should absolutely not be the expectation.

 

[SirloinUB]

I'm not exactly Yzerman's harshest critic, but if that truly was Yzerman's plan, just wait for the prospects and fill existing holes in free agency, he should absolutely be fired (though I can't imagine that's the case). If GMing was that simple they might as well hire some idiot on HF to do the job.

I mean, finding creative ways to improve the team with existing assets is a big part of the job. If Wings fans actually think the draft and free agency alone will lift the team out of mediocrity, they're setting themselves up for a lot of disappointment. Might as well pre-emptively organize a group therapy session with Buffalo fans and Chicago fans.

The rebuild is about Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson Kasper, Danielson, ASP, Cossa and a few other longer shots. Most of those guys are 21 or younger and still developing so yes there is an element of waiting for the kids to develop.

In regards to your 2nd paragraph, he resigned Larkin to a long term extension, traded for Debrincat and brought in Kane to bolster that group but make no mistake, the goal is to rebuild through the draft.

 

[Menzinger]

The team just never finished quite bad enough to ever draft truly elite young talent, the kind who can actually drive a team to the playoffs. Ending up with a group of good, but not star level talent just isn't enough.

Wings fans have also overestimated just how many of their prospects would reach their ceilings (few players ever truly do).

Yzerman is a decent GM, but not a miracle worker.

And the team has been stuck in a rough division with four teams consistently better than the bottom 4.

 

[GMR]

I disagree.

Little star scoring talent on the roster, a defense with massive question marks beside Seider, and Talbot/Lyon shouldn't exactly be counted on to provide elite level goaltending, even if they've managed to do that through the first month of the season.

They have a bottom 5-10 roster on paper and playoffs should absolutely not be the expectation.

Yet they almost qualified for the playoffs last year down to the final game. Certainly a better coach can take a similar roster and make the playoffs. They lost a few pieces but not irreplaceable players. Plus, Edvinsson didn't play most of last season.

 

[eojsmada]

Yet they almost qualified for the playoffs last year down to the final game. Certainly a better coach can take a similar roster and make the playoffs. They lost a few pieces but not irreplaceable players. Plus, Edvinsson didn't play most of last season.

Yeah. I figured Edvinsson's rise would be what Detroit needed. Little did I know how bad Petry, Holl, Copp, Motte, Gustavsson, and Tarasenko would be. And add to that regression by Veleno, Rasmussen and Beggren.

 

[GMR]

Yeah. I figured Edvinsson's rise would be what Detroit needed. Little did I know how bad Petry, Holl, Copp, Motte, Gustavsson, and Tarasenko would be. And add to that regression by Veleno, Rasmussen and Beggren.

TBH, many of these guys were bad or useless last season.

Regarding the new players, Tarasenko didn't do much scoring last year on a much better team so it's not surprising sadly. Motte/Gustavsson are plugs at best.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

They're a playoff team with a better coach. Should have made it last year and the roster isn't that much worse this year.

However, they cannot contend with any coach. That's a different matter.


You're being kind to Kenny.

That defense is beyond comical outside of Seider/Edvinsson, don't kid yourself lmao.

 

[Zarzh]

“Some young forwards” were 50pt players.

They had one top 4D, who he’s turned into a top D prospect.

Holland left him in the arguably the worst prospect pool in the NHL at the time.

once again… what are you talking about


Please show us all of the “consistent” picks Yzerman got in those rounds since 2010… I’ll wait.

Selling Holland's young assets turned into ASP, Debrincat, Cossa, and Buchelnikov. It's shocking how little value Yzerman has brought in.

Yzerman did alright with picking players with extremely high NHLe and overagers but terribly otherwise, now he's not even picking players with high NHLe.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Yet they almost qualified for the playoffs last year down to the final game. Certainly a better coach can take a similar roster and make the playoffs. They lost a few pieces but not irreplaceable players. Plus, Edvinsson didn't play most of last season.

The Wings overachieving last season should be a feather in Lalonde's cap.

He got a lot out of a roster with little talent. Don't know if that will happen again two seasons in a row.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

The team just never finished quite bad enough to ever draft truly elite young talent, the kind who can actually drive a team to the playoffs. Ending up with a group of good, but not star level talent just isn't enough.

They did in 2019-20 when they were the first team to be eliminated from the playoffs in February since the expansion Thrashers two decades prior, and it was nothing short of a complete travesty that they somehow fell to 4th in the Lottery.

I suppose there's an argument to be made that it was actually a good thing since they got Lucas Raymond at #4 rather than Lafreniere (not at the moment considering he has only 2 goals in 18 games) but that's a different topic.

Wings fans have also overestimated just how many of their prospects would reach their ceilings (few players ever truly do).

And that's why this whole "just wait 2-3 more years for the kids" argument falls on deaf ears for most. We don't know if they'll pan out. Maybe Danielson will be the next Brayden Point and Sandin-Pellikka could be the next Cale Makar, maybe Cossa is the next Vaselivskey- or they could be complete busts.

In the meantime, Red Wings fans are absolutely justified in the abysmal state of the roster in Year 6 of the famed "Yzerplan".

I don't think anyone would have believed the Red Wings would be tied for last in the East in November of 2024 when Yzerman returned in April of 2019. I certainly wouldn't have.

 

[SympathyForTheDevils]

I'd be all ears as to how more creative he can be. Unless the draft picks hit and the free agents you sign play up to where you thought they would be, then he's kind of stuck. They're not giving up Danielson, Kasper, Nyggard, Lombardi, Pellikka, Augustine, Cossa, or Buchelnikov from their pool.

Why would any of those prospects be off the table? Hell why would any Red Wing player be off the table? They're all tradable.

Someone out there will overvalue one of them: trade him. And somewhere other players/prospects are being undervalued: trade for them. That's the job. It's not easy; I certainly couldn't do it. But it's what separates a good GM from a bad one.

Yzerman was pretty creative in getting, at the time, Husso, Nedejlkovic, Debrincat, and Petry. That none of those players has panned isn't Yzerman's fault or for a lack of creativity. Granted Petry is playing way above where I think the Wings wanted him to because the bottom pair is so bad. Granted, I'm not sure why Johannson isn't playing, but that's a coaching issue.

Aside from Debrincat, those are all cheap players acquired for cheap assets. It's not Yzerman's fault in the sense that none of those transactions was particularly horrible, mostly just garbage in, garbage out. But whether they pan out or not is absolutely Yzerman's responsibility: he's the one who targeted these players.

Realistically, if Yzerman wants to improve the team long-term, he'll probably need to make trades with higher stakes and more risk involved.

The problem with the Wings, is that even if they were in contention for, and made, the playoffs this year, would it do them any good? They aren't a Cup contender and won't be for a few years still. So if the team continues to have holes in it while continuing to develop players to be ready to take over the majority of aging "holes" in the lineup, what does it behoove Yzerman to go all in to make the playoffs and sacrifice their more legit prospects.

Nobody's saying Yzerman should go all-in to make the playoffs; I agree that the Wings shouldn't seek out rentals and declining older players for the sake of fulfilling short-term goals, But that doesn't mean he shouldn't try to improve the team long-term. Because here's the problem: even if the Wings' top prospects somehow all hit and reach their ceiling (extremely unlikely), that still won't be enough to turn that team into a Cup contender. Not that it's only the Wings; it's really the problem of most rebuilding teams. The draft is not enough.

 

[fahad203]

They need to stop focusing on drafting euros hoping to recreate Lidstorm, Datsyuk and Zetterburg

 

[GMR]

That defense is beyond comical outside of Seider/Edvinsson, don't kid yourself lmao.

That's the one area that has regressed on paper, except for Edvinsson.

Gostisbeer and Walman could at least score. But I'd argue the defense last year wasn't great on paper either.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

That's the one area that has regressed, except for Edvinsson. Gostisbeer and Walman could at least score.

A lot of the Wings' issues can be led back to Yzerman's UFA record, it's beyond comical and horrendous especially on the defensive side of the puck. Has he even made a trade on the defense in the offseason? It just seems like he goes the UFA route every year and gets pummeled for trying.

 

[GMR]

A lot of the Wings' issues can be led back to Yzerman's UFA record, it's beyond comical and horrendous especially on the defensive side of the puck. Has he even made a trade on the defense in the offseason? It just seems like he goes the UFA route every year and gets pummeled for trying.

He traded Walman for nothing, so yes.

 

[Protas Zealots]

They need more sluggish UFA slop. You can only do so little with just Copp, Compher, Holl, Chiarot, Petry, Tarasenko, Husso taking up a third of your salary cap

 

[tucker3434]

A team in the doldrums. They aren’t young enough to exit the rebuild. As constructed, it seems like a team with first round exit upside.

 

[Borlag]

That defense is beyond comical outside of Seider/Edvinsson, don't kid yourself lmao.

That they are, but if you'd actually watch the games you'd see that the lack of a proper system plays a huge part of it. The guys that both Wings fans and non-fans are calling out are basically all veterans, sure some of them are on their last legs and as such not very good. At the same time they are still NHL players that have carved a career out of it, they shouldn't just forget how to play, which is kinda what has happened.

No coach will turn them into stars or even good defensemen suddenly, but even adequate replacement level would be an improvement most nights. That I believe would be possible with a proper structure.

 

[SoundAndFury]

They need to stop focusing on drafting euros hoping to recreate Lidstorm, Datsyuk and Zetterburg

Nice bias you got there, but let's pretend you tried to make an actual point. What is this based on? The Red Wings drafted plenty of NA-based players, and Michael Rasmussen is the best of those. The only knock on drafting from Europe could be Zadina, I guess. What is your actual complaint here? What could they have done better?

Even from very recent picks, would you rather have Sandin-Pelikka and Buchelnikov or Nate Danielsson and Dylan James? NA guys being drafted many spots earlier as well, in both cases.

 

[SympathyForTheDevils]

The rebuild is about Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson Kasper, Danielson, ASP, Cossa and a few other longer shots.

Then it will fall short. Even with reasonably optimistic estimates of what these players will become, that is not a strong enough core to contend. Unless they have a fantastic supporting cast, which the Wings are also completely missing.

In regards to your 2nd paragraph, he resigned Larkin to a long term extension, traded for Debrincat and brought in Kane to bolster that group but make no mistake, the goal is to rebuild through the draft.

Debrincat was a good acquisition. Kane is largely a non-factor; he'll be retired well before that group is ready to contend. Extending your star center is not a particularly note-worthy achievement. If this is the highlight reel of Yzerman's non-draft accomplishments after 6 years, it's a bit light.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Selling Holland's young assets turned into ASP, Debrincat, Cossa, and Buchelnikov. It's shocking how little value Yzerman has brought in.

Yzerman did alright with picking players with extremely high NHLe and overagers but terribly otherwise, now he's not even picking players with high NHLe.

His “young assets” were Mantha, Bertuzzi, Hronek….

The wings would be in no better position today with those 3, while also being much worse long term.

Terrible terrible.

 

[Zarzh]

His “young assets” were Mantha, Bertuzzi, Hronek….

The wings would be in no better position today with those 3, while also being much worse long term.

Terrible terrible.

Larkin and AA too. The Red Wings were consistently ranked as a top 10 prospect pool in 2018 too.

They should be, they missed the playoffs 6 times since then, yet the closest thing Yzerman got to an extra asset was a 2nd to take Staal when he also dumped Walman with a 2nd later on. In a best case scenario Larkin will be 29 before any of Yzerman's picks after #8 make the team, he'll probably be 29 before any pick after #6 score 30 points.

 

[Pierre Larouche]

Nice bias you got there, but let's pretend you tried to make an actual point. What is this based on? The Red Wings drafted plenty of NA-based players, and Michael Rasmussen is the best of those. The only knock on drafting from Europe could be Zadina, I guess. What is your actual complaint here? What could they have done better?

Even from very recent picks, would you rather have Sandin-Pelikka and Buchelnikov or Nate Danielsson and Dylan James? NA guys being drafted many spots earlier as well, in both cases.

Seems like a student from the Don Cherry school of anti- Euro player bias.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The point isn't to collect a bunch of mid prospects though, the point is to 1) make the playoffs 2) win a Cup. They won't come close to that second one if their pipeline is mostly made up of Cross Hanas and Shai Buium types (re: career AHLers).

In the Wings board's latest prospect ranking Buium was 12th and Hanas not top 20.

If a player can't crack a mediocre roster when they're 22/23 years old, they're probably just not that good. Guys like Seider, Raymond and Edvinsson were there by 19 or 20.

The expectation can't be that Yzerman find multiple star players each draft. Why has no other GM in NHL history ever been held to this standard?

If they don't want to waste Seider and Raymond's prime (and possibly Larkin's last good years), the WIngs have to, within 3-4 years, somehow add at least 5 solid top-9 forwards, 3 reliable NHL Dmen and one good starting goalie, and that's assuming Detroit's current good players don't regress too much. Even the most optimistic WIngs fan can't seriously expect that all those guys will come from the Griffins; even the best farm systems in the league aren't nearly that productive.

It won't be 100% prospects but it's not crazy to believe they have at least 5-6 of the 9 pieces you mention in the pipeline. Pipeline not being just the Griffins. Like any rebuild, yes they will struggle if most of their prospects bust.
And absolutely they will need to sign UFAs and make trades.

 

[Finnen]

They need more sluggish UFA slop. You can only do so little with just Copp, Compher, Holl, Chiarot, Petry, Tarasenko, Husso taking up a third of your salary cap

I rather keeps Copp, Holl and Chiarot than other dedicated.

Tarasenko must produce more point to trust this operator.