Detroit Redwings Downfall

Just Linda

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No, the whole story is that Eichel had that massive playoff run. And he obviously deserves credit for it, but before that, the talk about Eichel was how he's a me first player, didn't live up to the hype of his draft year, potential locker room cancer etc etc. Winning shuts all that talk down

In the last 3 seasons, Larkin has literally played above a 35 goal, 81 point pace.
Eichel in that same time frame has a 79.5 point pace to go with a 36 goal pace.

They're within a 1 goal, 2 point pace of eachother with Larkin playing 55 games more with a significantly worse supporting cast. Eichel "proved it", by winning a cup and all the hype returned for him. I'm not even saying Larkin is better or anything like that, I'm just saying there isn't some massive gap and if you can win with one as your top guy, you will have a solid chance with the other if everything else is relatively equal


This is absolutely not the issue. Ending up with Seider, Raymond and Edvinsson where they drafted is the problem? They came as close to hitting those picks out of the park as possible. If you want to count Hollands time, sure Zadina ended up a really bad pick and Rasmussen a meh pick. But even including those, I would bet that they got above average value for their drafting in that time. Late round stuff is still too early to tell
Eichel won the cup 2 years ago. You'll find a number of polls on this site, reddit, and throughout the web from 5 years ago which rank centres in the NHL and almost all of them have Eichel top 10, usually between 8-10.

NHL network had him as the 6th best center in the NHL



Reddit seemed to have a consensus with him being a top 10 centre in the league



Heck, even this site didn't see it as controversial that he was among the best players in the league


Eichel always had the hype and always backed it up. He's been among the best players in the league year after year, his reputation was that his injury history questioned whether he could remain elite. The talk on Eichel was always muted because there's no surprise with him, he came in and did exactly what they hoped he would do.

Larkin has never had the ability to take over games that Eichel has/had. There's a reason why, especially before his injury, Eichel was a top 10 center in the league and Larkin is widely seen around the 15-20 best centre. Both seem pretty accurate assessments to me, if Eichel can regain a bit more of the pop he had 5 year ago then I'd move him up to the Barkov/Matthews level of center that he can be.
 

WarriorofTime

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Nevermind your criticism about development while judging the success of recent 2nd round picks on NHL games played, as if rushing later round picks is a genius move.

Detroit holds their damn Top 10 picks way past the ready date and you think they're about rushing 2nd rounders? :laugh:
Is it so unreasonable to say the 2nd and 3rd rounders from the 2019 and 2020 Draft haven't panned out? Those players began the year 22 and 23 years old. Wings made 12 selections in the 2020 Draft. Only Lucas Raymond has appeared in any NHL game.
 

RedHawkDown

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As a Habs fan I sympathize with you on being stuck with useless vets, but in Yzerman case he keeps adding them. What makes you think he won't bring a new bunch of them next offseason ? Someone on your board explained it well, as long as your pro scouting stays the same and keeps making errors it's tough to envision things getting better
This is a very valid point. The useless vets have been the biggest issue; if he signs a bunch again next offseason I'm on board with saying Yzerman needs to go. But we'll see.
 

FriendlyGhost92

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Is it so unreasonable to say the 2nd and 3rd rounders from the 2019 and 2020 Draft haven't panned out? Those players began the year 22 and 23 years old. Wings made 12 selections in the 2020 Draft. Only Lucas Raymond has appeared in any NHL game.

Not sure why this is all that surprising. The fact that Simon Edvinsson wasn't even a solidified, permanent NHLer until this year should say a lot about Detroit's development strategy.

2019 and 2020 were pretty rancid outside Seider/Raymond. Wallinder looks promising and AlJo has played well so far this year.

It's just weird that everybody wants to talk about their 2019-2020 drafts but not Buchelnikov or Augustine or Mazur or even Buium or Finnie.
 
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bossram

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If you watched the games instead of just posting on forums about things you know little about, you would know that they’ve regularly been outclassed by these bottom feeder teams. The coaching is a far bigger issue than the roster, despite the roster also being a major issue.
I guarantee I watch more league-wide games than you. 100%.

And if they're getting "outclassed" by bad teams...then that just means they're bad, no? Roster is bad! Coach is probably also bad! Why are you surprised at the results then?
 

eojsmada

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The neutral zone play and lack of support in all zones, for the entire tenure of Lalonde's time in Detroit means that a significant portion of the issues are boiling down to bad coaching/systems. While the personnel is to blame for bad reads/reaction in the defensive zone or inability to finish, the more pressing issues is that the players play with very little structure except on special teams. And you can't win in the league relying simply on special teams unless you have legit Hart/Ross/Richard candidates on your team.
 

FriendlyGhost92

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I guarantee I watch more league-wide games than you. 100%.

And if they're getting "outclassed" by bad teams...then that just means they're bad, no? Roster is bad! Coach is probably also bad! Why are you surprised at the results then?
The defense is atrocious outside Seider/Edvinsson. That being said, Detroit had a hair-pulling strategy last year where they refused to shoot unless they had the perfect opportunity, and would either pass until they had that perfect opportunity or gave the puck away. Combine that with their tendency to allow defenseman way too far into the offensive zone, which led to a shit ton of odd man rushes. I can't speak for this season because I haven't been able to catch many games, but those are 100% coaching/system flaws.

Now, it's not Lalonde's fault that he was sent into the season with Petry and Holl as our 2RD and 3RD. But it is absolutely Lalonde's fault that he continues to do goofy shit like opt to play Erik Gustafsson over AlJo.
 
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WarriorofTime

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It's just weird that everybody wants to talk about their 2019-2020 drafts
I think it's because in reference to non-1st round picks, the discussion tends to proceed about how the players are too young to be in NHL yet. So 2019 and 2020 are referencing players that aren't too young to be in NHL. Even for later developing players, 22 and 23 is very normal to be a contributing NHLer by then.
 

FriendlyGhost92

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I think it's because in reference to non-1st round picks, the discussion tends to proceed about how the players are too young to be in NHL yet. So 2019 and 2020 are referencing players that aren't too young to be in NHL. Even for later developing players, 22 and 23 is very normal to be a contributing NHLer by then.

I'm not saying that's not normal for the league overall. It's not normal for Detroit.

This is a team that purposely healthy scratched Berggren for several games last year in favor of Austin Czarnik, just to protect his waiver eligibility.
 

bossram

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The defense is atrocious outside Seider/Edvinsson. That being said, Detroit had a hair-pulling strategy last year where they refused to shoot unless they had the perfect opportunity, and would either pass until they had that perfect opportunity or gave the puck away. Combine that with their tendency to allow defenseman way too far into the offensive zone, which led to a shit ton of odd man rushes. I can't speak for this season because I haven't been able to catch many games, but those are 100% coaching/system flaws.

Now, it's not Lalonde's fault that he was sent into the season with Petry and Holl as our 2RD and 3RD. But it is absolutely Lalonde's fault that he continues to do goofy shit like opt to play Erik Gustafsson over AlJo.
I'm sure there are things Lalonde is doing that are inefficient.

But yes, at the end of the day, the bottom-four of the blueline is terrible, there's a washed Tarasenko in the top-six, and they need Kasper to be an impact 2C for them to have a chance (considering Yzerman's other overpaid UFA signings like Copp and Compher aren't it). It's not a good roster. No one should have expected them to be anything better than below-average.
 

FriendlyGhost92

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I'm sure there are things Lalonde is doing that are inefficient.

But yes, at the end of the day, the bottom-four of the blueline is terrible, there's a washed Tarasenko in the top-six, and they need Kasper to be an impact 2C for them to have a chance (considering Yzerman's other overpaid UFA signings like Copp and Compher aren't it). It's not a good roster. No one should have expected them to be anything better than below-average.

I think the people who consider it an "Underperformance" have a mixed issue of:

1. Thinking we did anything to improve this summer.

2. Thinking we didn't overachieve last season.

It should've been pretty evident based on Yzerman signing a bunch of 1 and 2 year plugs that he was mailing the season in and continuing the "Let the kids develop" strategy.

For me, it's getting to the point where it's annoying to watch them continue to suck, but I'm not really turned off from Yzerman's strategy until his draftees start failing. BUT, I don't think Lalonde is the guy, and I start to wonder if we really want young players being influenced by his system, because it honestly sucks.

The players Detroit is drafting and team they're building is honestly tailor made to be coached by a Torts/Quenneville/Babcock/Tocchet/Berube type that demand all around play and constant effort. Problem is three of those are employed and the other two are seemingly unemployable.
 

Czechboy

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Exactly. People constantly shittin on the drafting would have a point if there were multiple obvious picks he missed on. But that quite literally has not happened.

The real drafting debacle was Holland picking Zadina over Hughes and Rasmussen over the next 4 guys who are all much better than him.
From my quick look.. I tend to agree. I didn't see many 3rd or 4th rounders killing it. Lot of first rounders in purgatory too.

Using a Czech scale.. Kaut, Zadina, Zboril all come to mind as massive busts with much better players available. Off to cry in a corner now.lol
 

tarheelhockey

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If he had spent 6 years at the bottom, he likely would be farther along at this point, and with a better future outlook.

Worst teams in the NHL over the past 6 years:

2020
Sharks
Senators
Red Wings

2021
Devils
Sabres
Ducks

2022
Kraken
Coyotes
Habs

2023
Blue Jackets
Blackhawks
Ducks

2024
Ducks
Blackhawks
Sharks

2025
Sharks
Predators
Blackhawks

The Devils are the only team on that list is over .500 right now. At least the Devils and Wings made some progress to get up and out of the bottom bracket. All the other teams that have been a common factor over these 6 years (primarily the Sharks and Ducks) are still slumming around hoping for a powerball win in the draft. I don’t see how it can be argued that the Ducks and Sharks are farther along right now than they were in 2020. Yes they have young talent on the roster but they are atrocious hockey teams that still have a lot of rebuilding ahead of them. Why would anyone want to be in that position 6 years later?
 

bossram

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I think the people who consider it an "Underperformance" have a mixed issue of:

1. Thinking we did anything to improve this summer.

2. Thinking we didn't overachieve last season.


It should've been pretty evident based on Yzerman signing a bunch of 1 and 2 year plugs that he was mailing the season in and continuing the "Let the kids develop" strategy.

For me, it's getting to the point where it's annoying to watch them continue to suck, but I'm not really turned off from Yzerman's strategy until his draftees start failing. BUT, I don't think Lalonde is the guy, and I start to wonder if we really want young players being influenced by his system, because it honestly sucks.

The players Detroit is drafting and team they're building is honestly tailor made to be coached by a Torts/Quenneville/Babcock/Tocchet/Berube type that demand all around play and constant effort. Problem is three of those are employed and the other two are seemingly unemployable.
I agreed with the bolded. The Wings fans arguing my main point fundamentally mis-evaluated the club going into the season, and didn't realize the bolded.

I think another coach could get more out of the roster, but "more" is still not going to be "good".
 

WarriorofTime

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I'm not saying that's not normal for the league overall. It's not normal for Detroit.

This is a team that purposely healthy scratched Berggren for several games last year in favor of Austin Czarnik, just to protect his waiver eligibility.
If a player can't crack a mediocre roster when they're 22/23 years old, they're probably just not that good. Guys like Seider, Raymond and Edvinsson were there by 19 or 20.
 

SympathyForTheDevils

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All but two of the guys in my list were available this summer.

I actually think Yzerman's general strategy of bringing in veterans to bridge the gap and get more competitive while prospects over-ripen is sound. That only works though if you have good pro scouting and bring in the right veterans. Yzerman has consistently (including and especially this offseason) made poor pro scouting decisions and made moves for worse veterans in FA and in trades when acquiring better ones for similar prices were well within the realm of possibility. Unfortunately for him pro scouting is a massive part of a GM's job and he's missed on basically every single one of those moves except for Kane.

Even if their lottery luck turns around or some of the many late round picks eventually make an NHL impact, his deficiency in this specific aspect of the role is so large that it makes me skeptical he will ever be able to put together a playoff team, let alone a contender in Detroit.

Exactly this. Yzerman had the right idea; if he had done what some fans wanted, and just twiddled his thumbs for a few more years wanting for the draft to land a few more stars in his lap, Detroit would have just rotted as another member of the "Just One More Year" tanking club. It's good that he tried to improve the team, but the execution has been poor.

Part of it is seems to be just poor pro scouting. I mean, Wings fans are mostly right that all these poor signings won't really hurt the team's chances to contend long-term. But there's an opportunity cost to wasting all that cap space, plus the fact these guys can't be flipped for good returns on their way out either. The Wings will be left with the same lack of NHL assets that was their problem in the first place.

The other part of the problem IMO is that Yzerman's management is too safe. A big part of being a good GM is identifying undervalued assets on other teams, or players that are a particularly good fit for your own team, and going out and grabbing them. "Building through the draft" is not enough, and while outbidding teams for mediocre veterans in FA doesn't cost much, it doesn't add much either. A good GM needs to spend assets and take risks to improve the team long-term, and Yzerman hasn't done much of that. There was the trade for Debrincat (which was good), and the Mantha/Vrana swap (a mixed bag, at best), but beyond that, Yzerman hasn't actually done much to add to Detroit's future core aside from just drafting, and unless your drafting is consistently amazing (or just really lucky), that won't be enough to build a contender. If they don't want to waste Seider and Raymond's prime (and possibly Larkin's last good years), the WIngs have to, within 3-4 years, somehow add at least 5 solid top-9 forwards, 3 reliable NHL Dmen and one good starting goalie, and that's assuming Detroit's current good players don't regress too much. Even the most optimistic WIngs fan can't seriously expect that all those guys will come from the Griffins; even the best farm systems in the league aren't nearly that productive.

I guess it's a bit contradictory to criticize Detroit's pro scouting and also criticize Yzerman for not taking risks (you probably don't want a management who struggles with player evaluation to make too many big trades). But something's gotta give for the Yzerplan to work out.
 
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FriendlyGhost92

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If a player can't crack a mediocre roster when they're 22/23 years old, they're probably just not that good. Guys like Seider, Raymond and Edvinsson were there by 19 or 20.

You're using Top pairing D and top line wingers as a example to show why depth prospects should be able to do it... Guys like Wallinder/AlJo/Buium simply don't have an elite level to their game to force management's hand at a young age, like Seider/Raymond/Edvinsson did.

And to be factually accurate, no, Edvinsson was not a permanent NHLer until he was 21.
 
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RedHawkDown

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I guarantee I watch more league-wide games than you. 100%.

And if they're getting "outclassed" by bad teams...then that just means they're bad, no? Roster is bad! Coach is probably also bad! Why are you surprised at the results then?
The number of league wide games you watch is entirely irrelevant. This thread is about red wings games, of which wings fans watch them all; and we’re telling you coaching is a massive problem. Your smugness is baseless.

Yes the roster isn’t great but Lalonde is also getting the least out of them possible. Unless you argument is that coaching is completely irrelevant for all teams and it’s just about the pure talent level of players , not sure wtf you’re saying
 
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bossram

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The number of league wide games you watch is entirely irrelevant. This thread is about red wings games, of which wings fans watch them all; and we’re telling you coaching is a massive problem. Your smugness is baseless.
The smugness is correct. At some point you'll have to admit the team is just bad.

Like last season, when many Wings fans claimed the team was ready to take the next step, when in reality, they were on a shooting percentage heater. They predictably fell off. The critics were right. How many Ls are you gonna take?

What should the record of the team be had they been gifted a "good" coach? What is the true talent level of this roster? Are they a legit playoff team? Better?
 

FriendlyGhost92

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The smugness is correct. At some point you'll have to admit the team is just bad.

Like last season, when many Wings fans claimed the team was ready to take the next step, when in reality, they were on a shooting percentage heater. They predictably fell off. The critics were right. How many Ls are you gonna take?

What should the record of the team be had they been gifted a "good" coach? What is the true talent level of this roster? Are they a legit playoff team? Better?

The shooting percentage is explained by the hair-pulling "Only shoot when you have a wide open net" strategy I previously mentioned. Which is a coaching issue.

I guess I don't get the "It's the roster! No it's the coaching!" argument. It's both.

That being said, only one is a quick fix, and I'd rather do it now than continue teaching young players a bad system.
 
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RedHawkDown

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The smugness is correct. At some point you'll have to admit the team is just bad.

Like last season, when many Wings fans claimed the team was ready to take the next step, when in reality, they were on a shooting percentage heater. They predictably fell off. The critics were right. How many Ls are you gonna take?

What should the record of the team be had they been gifted a "good" coach? What is the true talent level of this roster? Are they a legit playoff team? Better?
No, I started this entire discussion admitting they are not a legit playoff team even with a better coach. I don’t expect them to be, because there are still several top picks we need to make thr Nhl and contribute for that to happen. They are a middle of the pack team similar to last year based on talent level. Not a bottom 3 team. You seem to be incapable of realizing a team can be mediocre without being horrific.
 

bossram

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No, I started this entire discussion admitting they are not a legit playoff team even with a better coach. I don’t expect them to be, because there are still several top picks we need to make thr Nhl and contribute for that to happen. They are a middle of the pack team similar to last year based on talent level. Not a bottom 3 team. You seem to be incapable of realizing a team can be mediocre without being horrific.
Yes, they are mediocre. They have a mediocre record. I literally said they were "below-average", to quote myself. I think that is roughly synonymous with "mediocre".

I truly don't get it. If you think the roster is mediocre, why are you shocked at their performance? Why is it expected they should have a better record?

You seem to believe it should be impossible for a "medicore" team to lose to a "bad" team. That the Wings should simply never lose to the likes of ANA and SJ. This is not how the NHL works. Dallas lost to Anaheim last night. I think most people rate them as a "good team".
 

Bleedred

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Even if coaching is the problem then this also falls on Yzerman. Why hasn't he fired that doofus yet? I've been hearing since two weeks before the season ended ''Lalonde expected to be fired if Wings miss the playoffs'' and he wasn't. I'm not sure if it was because they only missed by zero points or what.

I'm wondering if they're waiting for Boston to fire Montgomery first, so they can quickly scoop him up. Like that time the Capitals fired Boudreau, then the Ducks quickly fired Randy Carlyle and hired Boudreau only like 2 or 3 days after Washington fired him.

I wanna say Claude Julien was hired by the Canadiens the second time only like a week after Boston fired him in 2017.
 

FriendlyGhost92

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Even if coaching is the problem then this also falls on Yzerman. Why hasn't he fired that doofus yet? I've been hearing since two weeks before the season ended ''Lalonde expected to be fired if Wings miss the playoffs'' and he wasn't. I'm not sure if it was because they only missed by zero points or what.

I'm wondering if they're waiting for Boston to fire Montgomery first, so they can quickly scoop him up. Like that time the Capitals fired Boudreau, then the Ducks quickly fired Randy Carlyle and hired Boudreau only like 2 or 3 days after Washington fired him.

I wanna say Claude Julien was hired by the Canadiens the second time only like a week after Boston fired him in 2017.

I mean you either heard that from fans or bullshit media sources, neither of which you should hold any stock in.
 

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