Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Luigi Lemieux]

FYI sometimes players continue to improve while others get older, have injury problems, have down years, or/and regress

Not sure what you're trying to say. If Makar and Hughes have down years then the wings dmen will be the top two in the league? Like I said, delusional.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Shesterkin is a pretty big part of their team too . Yeah they got lucky, but they also had Lafreniere, Zibanejad, Chyril, Kakko, Miller , Cuylle , Lindgren, Schneider.

Montreal has more top end talent in their system than Detroit

The Habs do not have more current NHL top talent.

They have prospects, the same as Detroit.

The Rangers have an entirely different team if they didn’t win the lottery (twice), and have two top 10 NHL players at their position come got free.

Absolutely ridiculous to compare the two situations

 

[Ulysses31]

A Wing's fan. None of us believe either of those two will be the best in the league. There are seasons where they'll get Norris votes (hopefully), but neither of them will be in the running for best DMan.

Umm No, they are best pair in league alrdy by some analytics. they are 21 n 23 years old. seider is a top 15 D man alrdy n sky is limit for Ed. There is a chance they could b best 2-men in league at some point.

 

[LarKing]

Umm No, they are best pair in league alrdy by some analytics. they are 21 n 23 years old. seider is a top 15 D man alrdy n sky is limit for Ed. There is a chance they could b best 2-men in league at some point.

Seider and Edvinsson have played like 15 games together. Can you chill out? We'd be damn lucky if both ended up as top 30 dmen. That would be fantastic.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Umm No, they are best pair in league alrdy by some analytics. they are 21 n 23 years old. seider is a top 15 D man alrdy n sky is limit for Ed. There is a chance they could b best 2-men in league at some point.

As in one of the top pairings in the league? Sure maybe.

Individually the 1st and 2nd best D in the league? Hell no lol.

 

[ccman68]

Yzerman is a good GM but far from perfect. Even with the Bolts he signed Dan Girardi of all people to play with Hedman. Just an obsession with defensive D who aren’t actually good at defense other than shot blocking.

 

[RedWingzz]

the whole organization has embraced a loser mentality

such a pathetic team..

Yzerplan though...lmao

 

[abo9]

I feel like I saw this thread last year and got laughed at for questioning the "Yzerplan".

My team is Montreal and we have the same issue. Until the kids arrive and establish themselves as stars (not just as "good"), then yeah JT Compher and Ben Chiarot aren't gonna do anything.

 

[Dotter]

Then you didn't watch the whole clip and "Lowe talking" about how he knows a thing or 2 about winning. It's now Oilers folklore.

Again, I fail to see the connection. "Lowe talking" vs "Dotter talking". I am flattered you would put me in with some NHL GM authority.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

Derek Lalonde has to be fired.

Detroit went over 12 minutes without a shot against the Ducks, and as they always do, stopped attacking after getting a two goal lead.

Once again got outplayed and outshot against a team they should have easily beaten on paper.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Umm No, they are best pair in league alrdy by some analytics. they are 21 n 23 years old. seider is a top 15 D man alrdy n sky is limit for Ed. There is a chance they could b best 2-men in league at some point.

You'd think a team with the two best dmen in the league would be better than 7-8-1

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Name one job in which someone would get to skate by for six years without making any significant improvements.

Has anyone said Republican nominee for president of the United States yet?

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

Our coach sucks and our GM manages like it’s 2004 rather than 2024. We suck. I still actually do like our prospect pool, but it could be better. That’s about our only hope. Yzerman will probably screw it up though with his awful contracts and questionable trades. Oh and yeah another thing, our pro scouting is awful, legitimately worst in the league. Guess who runs it? None other than Chris yzerman. Love some good ol nepotism.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

What is going on with the Detroit Redwings!? Each game is just a letdown to sit through! Despite all the star power we have this year, we can't even score like we did last year! Poor overseeing from
management to put Husso in for the NYR game tonight too! Something significant has to happen for this organization because it is unacceptable!!!

 

[WhatTheDuck]

That was the Ducks first six goal game since beating Philly 7-4 on Oct 28th of last year.

 

[SirKillalot]

I'm not saying Montreal's pipeline is perfect, I just think it's more well-rounded than Detroit's. I don't think Montreal's prospects are overrated. Which ones specifically?

By scoring talent I mean overall scoring. I'm sure with Slaf, Caufield, Demidov, Suzuki, Dach , Hage, and some of their other B prospects, they'll figure out a way to score some goals.

Yeah you can only uce so many d-men on a roster, but what I mean is depth is important because it ensures you WILL have a good defense. They can also be trade chips if you have an abundance. Like I said,I think both teams ' future outlook on D is about equal.

Overrated? Well goalies. None of them got stellar save percentage. Okay the team not performing great in build process etc. But Montembeault is 28 years old with no stellar seasons and will be 30-31 before Montreal goes anywhere and Primeau is still "young" in goalie terms so he can get to a higher level. Now okay they are in NHL, but meh. Now Fowler can get there, and has potential to be very good. Is playing for a historically good college but college is also a bit lower scoring, hard to say how he takes the adjustment. So let's say Montreal has one solid shot in him and Detroit has two in Cossa and Augustine.

Defense. As you said both have good prospect pools there.
Montreal got Hutson, Reinbacher, Mailloux, Guhle, Xhekaj, Engstrom, Mittelstadt, Barron, Struble, Protz, Trudeau
Detroit got Seider, Edvinsson, Anton Johansson, Sandin-Pellikka, Buium, Wallinder, Viro, Tuomisto, Cleveland, Albert Johansson.

Personally I think Montreal got lets say more defined player types on defense than Detroit, and they got 5 under 23 in their lineup right now, but overall it isn't working well yet and question becomes who sticks around long term. Detroit has 3 in their lineup right now where Seider have been solid and Edvinsson have taken steps, together they been a very good pair. Let's say for now, Detroit has the high end guys and Montreal has the depth.

Outside of NHL both teams have many d-men that can get there, we all have our predictions on that, but if keeping a modest projection, a lot of good young d-men pan out and don't stick in the NHL. For the sake of the argument I think both teams could end up having 4 each long term, maybe...maybe 5, others will come in through trade or FA and some will leave through trade or FA.

Offensively Montreal got Suzuki, Slafkovsky, Dach, Newhook, Roy, Laine
Coming up: Demidov, Hage, Beck, Mesar, Rohrer, L. Tuch, Koivu, Sawyer, Davidson

Suzuki best point producer. But, always in the minus so far 5v5. Slafkovsky started decent, lacking some goals this year. He is a big guy so expecting him to take some time becoming really really good. Dach kind of is in the same box as Suzuki, some injuries, showed glimpses and other times not special. Obviously Demidov and Hage people expect a lot from. Both coming from backgrounds with uncertainties in regard to going into the NHL whether it will be success or not.
Probably some others I haven't listed.

Overall I'd say there is more upside in Montreals offensive prospects, but there is also a lot of question marks. If everything goes well they should have more pieces in place there than Detroit, but not everything is going to go well most likely. I think in general its an idea that some of the Montreal prospects is seen as lets not say generational in any way but top top prospects as to how to get there and if they ever will is a bigger chance they will not get to that fantasy potential one have.

Offensively Detroit got Larkin (going to be older), DeBrincat, Raymond, Rasmussen, Veleno, Berggren (bubbling)
Coming up: Kasper (on the brink of getting in), Danielson, Mazur, Buchelnikov, Brandsegg-Nygaard, James, Savage, Lombardi, Plante, Finnie, Becher, Kiiskinen, N. Dower-Nilsson, L. Dower-Nilsson.

I'd say there is more uncertainty with Detroit's prospects, in regards to what they will be. Some being too young to say and also needing to be in NA to see how they handle it. I would say Detroit have more depth on forward potential option, so the opposite of d-men, where Montreal I think got a little bit more options.
Then of course its not going to go all according to plan, so who will pan out and out.
In general I'd say Detroit has drafted a lot of what they perceive is two-way guys and where the potential upside offensively when it comes to production is more unknown from a potential or projection aspect.

I think Montreal has more of those where you could project lets say an average to good estimate and of course hoping they get to their potential as best possible outcome, but that this aspect is a bit blown up where maybe the thought process is "everyone" will reach it and it will be magic, as when it comes to Detroit projection its more on the view of "everyone" will reach lets say solid but lower minimum offensively but good all-round players, and then high uncertainty how high their point totals can evolve up.

Danielson being a perfect example of projection anywhere from 3C to 1C, where players his current age, Bedard included saying he is the toughest opponent faced (prior to NHL), and how that will relate to development going on a higher and higher level. Where most see him ending up as a 2C or top six center, where there is 1C potential.

So who knows, its all projection, we can agree to disagree.
Personally I believe Detroit have the framework or outlook where to me it looks like they are building a unit that will be better as a team than Montreal. Of course I would like to see some more top end production guys into the mix, either by development or trade/FA.

 

[chuckt]

I said this a year or two ago, but I don't recall it getting much traction.

I think Yzerman's drafting has been fine, I think giving the team more time is perfectly acceptable. Where I think Yzerman went terribly wrong was with his failure to weaponize cap space.

The Red Wings executed the majority of their rebuild during a time when cap space was historically difficult to come by. This was an absolute blessing. Instead of signing mid-tier free agents to medium term, he should have been taking on cap dumps left and right. The Wings should have been the type of team willing to take a Monahan. Hell, they should have been the type of team taking a Wallman for a 2nd. I don't understand the trading a third for Husso and other similar trades where assets were given up without real long-term upside.

All of their free agent signings should have been one-year deals for players they could hope to flip at the deadline.

They should have come out of those early rebuild years with a whole additional draft class of picks. They could have had at minimum, another first, multilple seconds and thirds. With some luck, they could have had two or three additional late firsts. Even if they don't need all of those prospects, they could have used them now as trade capital to upgrade their roster when they're ready to take the next step.

Not aggressively utilizing cap space when it was worth the most it ever has been in NHL history seems like a large miss. And no one ever talks about it in these threads.

 

[Finnen]

I said this a year or two ago, but I don't recall it getting much traction.

I think Yzerman's drafting has been fine, I think giving the team more time is perfectly acceptable. Where I think Yzerman went terribly wrong was with his failure to weaponize cap space.

The Red Wings executed the majority of their rebuild during a time when cap space was historically difficult to come by. This was an absolute blessing.

Not aggressively utilizing cap space when it was worth the most it ever has been in NHL history seems like a large miss. And no one ever talks about it in these threads.

Husso off.

 

[Dread Clawz]

Overrated? Well goalies. None of them got stellar save percentage. Okay the team not performing great in build process etc. But Montembeault is 28 years old with no stellar seasons and will be 30-31 before Montreal goes anywhere and Primeau is still "young" in goalie terms so he can get to a higher level. Now okay they are in NHL, but meh. Now Fowler can get there, and has potential to be very good. Is playing for a historically good college but college is also a bit lower scoring, hard to say how he takes the adjustment. So let's say Montreal has one solid shot in him and Detroit has two in Cossa and Augustine.

Defense. As you said both have good prospect pools there.
Montreal got Hutson, Reinbacher, Mailloux, Guhle, Xhekaj, Engstrom, Mittelstadt, Barron, Struble, Protz, Trudeau
Detroit got Seider, Edvinsson, Anton Johansson, Sandin-Pellikka, Buium, Wallinder, Viro, Tuomisto, Cleveland, Albert Johansson.

Personally I think Montreal got lets say more defined player types on defense than Detroit, and they got 5 under 23 in their lineup right now, but overall it isn't working well yet and question becomes who sticks around long term. Detroit has 3 in their lineup right now where Seider have been solid and Edvinsson have taken steps, together they been a very good pair. Let's say for now, Detroit has the high end guys and Montreal has the depth.

Outside of NHL both teams have many d-men that can get there, we all have our predictions on that, but if keeping a modest projection, a lot of good young d-men pan out and don't stick in the NHL. For the sake of the argument I think both teams could end up having 4 each long term, maybe...maybe 5, others will come in through trade or FA and some will leave through trade or FA.

Offensively Montreal got Suzuki, Slafkovsky, Dach, Newhook, Roy, Laine
Coming up: Demidov, Hage, Beck, Mesar, Rohrer, L. Tuch, Koivu, Sawyer, Davidson

Suzuki best point producer. But, always in the minus so far 5v5. Slafkovsky started decent, lacking some goals this year. He is a big guy so expecting him to take some time becoming really really good. Dach kind of is in the same box as Suzuki, some injuries, showed glimpses and other times not special. Obviously Demidov and Hage people expect a lot from. Both coming from backgrounds with uncertainties in regard to going into the NHL whether it will be success or not.
Probably some others I haven't listed.

Overall I'd say there is more upside in Montreals offensive prospects, but there is also a lot of question marks. If everything goes well they should have more pieces in place there than Detroit, but not everything is going to go well most likely. I think in general its an idea that some of the Montreal prospects is seen as lets not say generational in any way but top top prospects as to how to get there and if they ever will is a bigger chance they will not get to that fantasy potential one have.

Offensively Detroit got Larkin (going to be older), DeBrincat, Raymond, Rasmussen, Veleno, Berggren (bubbling)
Coming up: Kasper (on the brink of getting in), Danielson, Mazur, Buchelnikov, Brandsegg-Nygaard, James, Savage, Lombardi, Plante, Finnie, Becher, Kiiskinen, N. Dower-Nilsson, L. Dower-Nilsson.

I'd say there is more uncertainty with Detroit's prospects, in regards to what they will be. Some being too young to say and also needing to be in NA to see how they handle it. I would say Detroit have more depth on forward potential option, so the opposite of d-men, where Montreal I think got a little bit more options.
Then of course its not going to go all according to plan, so who will pan out and out.
In general I'd say Detroit has drafted a lot of what they perceive is two-way guys and where the potential upside offensively when it comes to production is more unknown from a potential or projection aspect.

I think Montreal has more of those where you could project lets say an average to good estimate and of course hoping they get to their potential as best possible outcome, but that this aspect is a bit blown up where maybe the thought process is "everyone" will reach it and it will be magic, as when it comes to Detroit projection its more on the view of "everyone" will reach lets say solid but lower minimum offensively but good all-round players, and then high uncertainty how high their point totals can evolve up.

Danielson being a perfect example of projection anywhere from 3C to 1C, where players his current age, Bedard included saying he is the toughest opponent faced (prior to NHL), and how that will relate to development going on a higher and higher level. Where most see him ending up as a 2C or top six center, where there is 1C potential.

So who knows, its all projection, we can agree to disagree.
Personally I believe Detroit have the framework or outlook where to me it looks like they are building a unit that will be better as a team than Montreal. Of course I would like to see some more top end production guys into the mix, either by development or trade/FA.

Well it was said that Montreal's prospects were overrated, not their current roster players. So only looking at prospect goalies, Fowler is a very good one. Has a .943 this season in 9 games at BC and had a .926 last season. He's probably not as good as Cossa , but probably a step below. About on par with Augustine. Yeah, Detroit has two blue chip goalies and Montreal has one, it's not a massive advantage or anything.

There's no doubt Seider is the best of the prospect D right now. Detroit is a little better of a team, so their young D are more insulated by the team strength and by Seider. Montreal is under siege each night l, so their D aren't performing as well yet. I think in a couple years, most of them will take huge steps. Overall I'd say it's even.

I don't think there's anything wrong with drafting more two-way forwards , but too many of them and your forward pool starts to become a weakness. I think Detroit has maybe overdone it a little, and could have gone for a couple more big swings at talent .You build championship cores through talent,, that's just the way it is. There's no doubt that Montreal has more top end talent in their system. There's no way of telling who is gonna pan out and who isn't from either side, but just from an objective standpoint, there's more talent on Montreal's side. Detroit may have a better "team" in a few years, they may not . There's no way anyone could know or estimate that.

 

[MOGlLNY]

you wouldn't last an hour in the asylum where they raised us