Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Dread Clawz]

For a Florida fan you seem to be struggling to see value in anything that isn't a scoring forward.

No, I know what it takes to win the Cup. You need quality and depth all over your lineup. And I know from the 2022 team that scoring alone isn't gonna bring you the Cup. Tampa shut us down and brought out the brooms. The fact is, what Detroit has just isn't good enough. And they aim to be a bubble team/playoff team from here on out, so the chances of landing a star in that range of the 1st round is pretty slim. Now, my view is that Yzerman is banking on landing a huge name via trade or free agency at some point. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. Otherwise, this rebuild just ain't gonna work. I'm not saying this to be disparaging, I honestly want Detroit to do well. The league is better off when the original 6 teams are good. It's just my honest view, and from one who is a fan of a team who had two failed rebuilds in a row. Florida was Buffalo before Buffalo. Actually, they were worse. I get Yzerman wanted the team to improve ASAP, but what he actually did is killed the rebuild in it's infancy.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

They’d have a better future outlook without Larkin, Seider, Raymond, Debrincat?

Larkin and Debrincat will be declining by the time Detroit becomes a contender (if ever). They botched this rebuild big time.

 

[Puckstuff]

It's not difficult. There's a finite amount of elite players and Detroit does not have them.

They play in Toronto, Florida and Tampa.

 

[norrisnick]

No, I know what it takes to win the Cup. You need quality and depth all over your lineup. And I know from the 2022 team that scoring alone isn't gonna bring you the Cup. Tampa shut us down and brought out the brooms. The fact is, what Detroit has just isn't good enough. And they aim to be a bubble team/playoff team from here on out, so the chances of landing a star in that range of the 1st round is pretty slim. Now, my view is that Yzerman is banking on landing a huge name via trade or free agency at some point. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. Otherwise, this rebuild just ain't gonna work. I'm not saying this to be disparaging, I honestly want Detroit to do well. The league is better off when the original 6 teams are good. It's just my honest view, and from one who is a fan of a team who had two failed rebuilds in a row. Florida was Buffalo before Buffalo. Actually, they were worse. I get Yzerman wanted the team to improve ASAP, but what he actually did is killed the rebuild in it's infancy.

Only in the sense that he no longer wanted a bottom 5 team as that helps absolutely nothing if you don't get the ping pong balls to drop. None of the moves Yzerman has made say "win now and fast". Not in the least. It's insulate the few kids on the roster while he waits for the other kids to be ready. Yes, some of the insulation has worked better than others, but he'd rather a 30yo get hammered on the 2nd pairing than a teenager or even 20yo.

At this point, people just need to listen to his press conferences if they aren't going to listen to Wing fans explain it. There is nothing mystical or magical expected. It's incremental improvement because shortcuts can't be forced. They either fall in your lap (via lottery or RFA/UFA demanding to play for you) or they don't. Is what it is. Fans that didn't know what was going on placed hero status on Yzerman. And fans that don't know what is going on are hammering him for that alleged hero status that neither he, nor the fans in the know, ever ascribed to him.

 

[Dread Clawz]

Only in the sense that he no longer wanted a bottom 5 team as that helps absolutely nothing if you don't get the ping pong balls to drop. None of the moves Yzerman has made say "win now and fast". Not in the least. It's insulate the few kids on the roster while he waits for the other kids to be ready. Yes, some of the insulation has worked better than others, but he'd rather a 30yo get hammered on the 2nd pairing than a teenager or even 20yo.

At this point, people just need to listen to his press conferences if they aren't going to listen to Wing fans explain it. There is nothing mystical or magical expected. It's incremental improvement because shortcuts can't be forced. They either fall in your lap (via lottery or RFA/UFA demanding to play for you) or they don't. Is what it is. Fans that didn't know what was going on placed hero status on Yzerman. And fans that don't know what is going on are hammering him for that alleged hero status that neither he, nor the fans in the know, ever ascribed to him.

Fair enough. I just don't think he was patient enough with the ping pong balls. After a couple tries it seems he decided to change course and improve the team through other methods. I think if he stuck with the tanking, things would be looking better now. But we'll see what happens. It'll be interesting to revisit this discussion in say, three years.

 

[Bank Shot]

And this season the Wings are 3rd from the bottom of the league in shooting % 5v5.

Shouldn't math tell us they aren't as bad as they've been thus far this season?

They are still one of the worst teams in the league in all the underlying numbers like corsi, shots% and expected goals %.

I would expect the math expects them to miss the playoffs yet again.

 

[Dotter]

No, I know what it takes to win the Cup. [...]

I get Yzerman wanted the team to improve ASAP, but what he actually did is killed the rebuild in it's infancy.

Pure gold. Random hockey forum member/armchair GM telling HHOF 3 time Stanley Cup champion who Captained his team to over 25 playoff appearances, and is part of the Gold club what it takes to win a cup. Lol

I promise you there's more Red Wings fans on this board that know more about what it takes to win a cup in their pinky tip than your one time experience streaming a cup game online.

Wings can't bottom out, Yzerman drafted too good of talent to sink the ship. Yzerman has more talent coming up through the pipeline. You haven't even seen 25% of their potential yet. They are still keeping pace in the Atlantic division despite off to a slow start. Just 3 points behind Boston with 3 games in hand.

I don't know who you are comparing DRWs rebuild to... but from where I am sitting, Yzerman has done a good job. If you want to call Holland's (pre-2019) rebuild a botched attempt, I'll give you that. Yzerman had to start from scratch.

If you compare Wings rebuild to Ottawa's for example, this phase of OTT's rebuild has been going on since Chabot 2015. They are almost 10 years in and still can't make the playoffs.

Your Panthers has been rebuilding since Jonathan Huberdeau 2011. That was a sick trade for Tkachuk! But it took them 14 years to win anything and lots of luck.

Yzerman is in his 5th year....

 

[Ulysses31]

Sy drafted some huge pieces:

1) seider: 2nd best play 2019, if you disagree would like to hear who you consider better.
2) raymond top 5 player probably from that draft if not for sure a top 10 player. will be interesting to re visit this draft in a few yrs. as it's super deep.
3) edvinsson: this draft is wide open IMO n decent chance he could b top 3 players of this draft.
Cossa: playing well in AHL but has to prove in the NHL.

2022 n onward too early to tell but some solid pedigree to build around.


while i think raymond is a good winger, maybe 90 point player maybe just short of or if really improves a nylander/marner tier. edvidsson n seider still have a lot of runway IMo, esp ed. DRW could end up with 2 best D men in league at some point.

 

[Dotter]

Sy drafted some huge pieces:

1) seider: 2nd best play 2019, if you disagree would like to hear who you consider better.
2) raymond top 5 player probably from that draft if not for sure a top 10 player. will be interesting to re visit this draft in a few yrs. as it's super deep.
3) edvinsson: this draft is wide open IMO n decent chance he could b top 3 players of this draft.
Cossa: playing well in AHL but has to prove in the NHL.

2022 n onward too early to tell but some solid pedigree to build around.


while i think raymond is a good winger, maybe 90 point player maybe just short of or if really improves a nylander/marner tier. edvidsson n seider still have a lot of runway IMo, esp ed. DRW could end up with 2 best D men in league at some point.

Edvinsson and Seider are ranked the best top pairing in the league so far this season. Pretty amazing considering how hard their matchups are... and lets not forget the fact this is Edvinsson's rookie season and these players ages are 21 and 23 respectively.

Seider and Edvinsson boast a Corsi for percentage of 51.98%, an expected goals for percentage (xGF%) of 56.43% after 15 games played with a high danger chances for percentage (HDCF%) of 61.90%, and in those 15 games they played a188:20 combined time on ice minutes.

 

[Dread Clawz]

Pure gold. Random hockey forum member/armchair GM telling HHOF 3 time Stanley Cup champion who Captained his team to over 25 playoff appearances, and is part of the Gold club what it takes to win a cup. Lol

I promise you there's more Red Wings fans on this board that know more about what it takes to win a cup in their pinky tip than your one time experience streaming a cup game online.

Wings can't bottom out, Yzerman drafted too good of talent to sink the ship. Yzerman has more talent coming up through the pipeline. You haven't even seen 25% of their potential yet. They are still keeping pace in the Atlantic division despite off to a slow start. Just 3 points behind Boston with 3 games in hand.

I don't know who you are comparing DRWs rebuild to... but from where I am sitting, Yzerman has done a good job. If you want to call Holland's (pre-2019) rebuild a botched attempt, I'll give you that. Yzerman had to start from scratch.

If you compare Wings rebuild to Ottawa's for example, this phase of OTT's rebuild has been going on since Chabot 2015. They are almost 10 years in and still can't make the playoffs.

Your Panthers has been rebuilding since Jonathan Huberdeau 2011. That was a sick trade for Tkachuk! But it took them 14 years to win anything and lots of luck.

Yzerman is in his 5th year....

So, Yzerman was a great player.... that means nothing. Gretzky was a terrible coach. Roy failed before in the NHL and is now slowly building back his rep in Long Island, although the Isles sit out of the playoffs picture. Nieuwendyk failed as a GM. I don't see Lemieux, Orr, Hull, Potvin, Bourque, Fedorov, Selanne, Lidstrom etc. running teams. Management is different from playing. Arguably the 3'best GMs in the game right now, Zito, Nill, and Allvin, are relative nobodies in the NHL players' archive.

Ok, the Red Wings have a much, much better history than the Panthers....again irrelevant. It doesn't matter what team you root for...the proven best way to build a contender is to tank for multiple years and acquire superstars. This isn't 2002 anymore. There's a salary cap.

Lol Yzerman didn't draft too good of talent....what he did was sign mediocre FAs and make trades that have kept the Wings from bottoming out. I know what's coming up through their pipeline, I follow prospects closely.

Montreal started their rebuild after Detroit, and theirs already looks better. Rangers started their rebuild at the same time as Detroit, and they are far ahead of them now.

Yes, as a Panthers fan I know what a failed rebuild looks like... we've had a couple. There are lots of rebuilds going on in the NHL right now and not all will work out. I think Detroit is one of those.

 

[Pavels Dog]

If he had not signed a bunch of mediocre FA's, he could have.

They should have stayed at the bottom longer.

They were outside the bottom 5 in 2021-22, before they really made any significant FA signings. You are basically saying Yzerman should have drafted worse in 2019 and 2020 so he could have gotten more top picks. After Seider & Raymond entered the NHL there was minimal chance for Detroit to get a top 3 pick without winning a lottery.

To draft Bedard they would have needed to be 22 points worse. You can't, like literally can't, both say their FA signings were mediocre and say they were worth 22 standings point (not even McDavid+Draisatl are worth that).

...and they're still not in playoff position. Stevie Y's plan is gonna kick in any day, right?

I'd be deeply, deeply concerned if the end goal of the rebuild was to be in a playoff position on Friday the 15th of November, and that day only.

 

[RANDOMH3RO]

The only thing Detroit has done really wrong is not get more picks in the top 5. They win a lottery and they have a much better outlook. Tough spot to be in without it.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Pure gold. Random hockey forum member/armchair GM telling HHOF 3 time Stanley Cup champion who Captained his team to over 25 playoff appearances, and is part of the Gold club what it takes to win a cup. Lol

I promise you there's more Red Wings fans on this board that know more about what it takes to win a cup in their pinky tip than your one time experience streaming a cup game online.

Wings can't bottom out, Yzerman drafted too good of talent to sink the ship. Yzerman has more talent coming up through the pipeline. You haven't even seen 25% of their potential yet. They are still keeping pace in the Atlantic division despite off to a slow start. Just 3 points behind Boston with 3 games in hand.

I don't know who you are comparing DRWs rebuild to... but from where I am sitting, Yzerman has done a good job. If you want to call Holland's (pre-2019) rebuild a botched attempt, I'll give you that. Yzerman had to start from scratch.

If you compare Wings rebuild to Ottawa's for example, this phase of OTT's rebuild has been going on since Chabot 2015. They are almost 10 years in and still can't make the playoffs.

Your Panthers has been rebuilding since Jonathan Huberdeau 2011. That was a sick trade for Tkachuk! But it took them 14 years to win anything and lots of luck.

Yzerman is in his 5th year....

2015 lol
Chabot was the 18th pick lol, means they were in the playoffs
Then 2017 double overtime game 7 loss from cup final.

Detroit has gone longer than Ottawa missing the playoffs.

If you start rebuilds only counting when the new GM takes over (nobody does),
Ottawa’s is one year into rebuild, using that misguided logic.

 

[Dread Clawz]

They were outside the bottom 5 in 2021-22, before they really made any significant FA signings. You are basically saying Yzerman should have drafted worse in 2019 and 2020 so he could have gotten more top picks. After Seider & Raymond entered the NHL there was minimal chance for Detroit to get a top 3 pick without winning a lottery.

To draft Bedard they would have needed to be 22 points worse. You can't, like literally can't, both say their FA signings were mediocre and say they were worth 22 standings point (not even McDavid+Draisatl are worth that).

By mediocre I mean they are helping Detroit in the standings, but not in their long term outlook. And they're not marquee free agents who are propelling then to contender status.

2015 lol
Chabot was the 18th pick lol, means they were in the playoffs
Then 2017 double overtime game 7 loss from cup final.

Detroit has gone longer than Ottawa missing the playoffs.

If you start rebuilds only counting when the new GM takes over (nobody does),
Ottawa’s is one year into rebuild, using that misguided logic.

Agreed. Dude's timeline is all screwed up.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Sy drafted some huge pieces:

1) seider: 2nd best play 2019, if you disagree would like to hear who you consider better.
2) raymond top 5 player probably from that draft if not for sure a top 10 player. will be interesting to re visit this draft in a few yrs. as it's super deep.
3) edvinsson: this draft is wide open IMO n decent chance he could b top 3 players of this draft.
Cossa: playing well in AHL but has to prove in the NHL.

2022 n onward too early to tell but some solid pedigree to build around.


while i think raymond is a good winger, maybe 90 point player maybe just short of or if really improves a nylander/marner tier. edvidsson n seider still have a lot of runway IMo, esp ed. DRW could end up with 2 best D men in league at some point.

You think Seider and Edvidsson could be the two best dmen in the league? In a league with Makar and Hughes? Holy wings fans really are in a delusional state about this rebuild.

 

[Barsky]

That's interesting because I could've sworn that Lafreniere plays for the Rangers

They got extremely lucky, not really smart or logical to bank on 1 in 40 odds to payoff regularly

 

[VeteranPresence]

I'd be deeply, deeply concerned if the end goal of the rebuild was to be in a playoff position on Friday the 15th of November, and that day only.

It would appear the end goal of the rebuild was to not make the playoffs, ever. Good news- you all seem to be on track.

 

[Barsky]

Fair enough. I just don't think he was patient enough with the ping pong balls. After a couple tries it seems he decided to change course and improve the team through other methods. I think if he stuck with the tanking, things would be looking better now. But we'll see what happens. It'll be interesting to revisit this discussion in say, three years.

Exactly this, he got impatient, bought up a bunch of cast off UFA's and screwed himself in the long run, pretty plain to see

The only thing Detroit has done really wrong is not get more picks in the top 5. They win a lottery and they have a much better outlook. Tough spot to be in without it.

Which they could have gotten if Stevie hadn't gotten impatient and bought up a bunch of UFA cast offs that only hurt him in the long run

 

[Konnan511]

You think Seider and Edvidsson could be the two best dmen in the league? In a league with Makar and Hughes? Holy wings fans really are in a delusional state about this rebuild.

A Wing's fan. None of us believe either of those two will be the best in the league. There are seasons where they'll get Norris votes (hopefully), but neither of them will be in the running for best DMan.