Detroit Redwings Downfall

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

The more realist answer is there’s some contingency of Red Wing fans that have a dedicated cult of personality around Yzerman the man and won’t give an inch to any discussion that he’s been anything less than exemplary in his tenure as Red Wing GM. So there’s a lot of tire kicking because you still have some guys going so far as to say the wings are on their way to being a perennial SCF contender, “soon enough”. You won’t see long discussions pertaining to similarly situated teams because those fan bases aren’t so dedicated to defending their GM’s honor at all costs so discussions would range from “idk needs more time” if GM is relatively new to “yeah idc they can fire the guy” if he’s been there for a bit.

Bolded is 1000% accurate. I’ve read this board for over 10 years, and I’ve genuinely never seen a fanbase in such extreme denialism as some (not all) Red Wings fans with Yzerman. It’s like he could trade a first for a fourth, and that segment of the fanbase would justify it somehow.

 

[VeteranPresence]

Brother you have over 20 posts in this thread alone. That is the definition of living in your head rent free.

If that's the case, then the 20 posts a page from Red Wings fans defending Stevie would indicate he lives mortgage-free in theirs. As it is, I wouldn't have much reason to reply if said posts addressed his actual record and the facts as opposed to ad hominem attacks like this.

Bolded is 1000% accurate. I’ve read this board for over 10 years, and I’ve genuinely never seen a fanbase in such extreme denialism as some (not all) Red Wings fans with Yzerman. It’s like he could trade a first for a fourth, and that segment of the fanbase would justify it somehow.

Or, like, dump off a defenseman for a 2nd who then immediately became a #2/#3 at worst on a different team for literal FUTURE CONSIDERATIONS. But no, it's just because all us non Red Wings fans are big mad about the teams they were able to roll out before the salary cap existed nearly 20 years ago now.

 

[norrisnick]

Bolded is 1000% accurate. I’ve read this board for over 10 years, and I’ve genuinely never seen a fanbase in such extreme denialism as some (not all) Red Wings fans with Yzerman. It’s like he could trade a first for a fourth, and that segment of the fanbase would justify it somehow.

Do you just ignore the entire province of Ontario every fall?

 

[Lampedampe]

Bolded is 1000% accurate. I’ve read this board for over 10 years, and I’ve genuinely never seen a fanbase in such extreme denialism as some (not all) Red Wings fans with Yzerman. It’s like he could trade a first for a fourth, and that segment of the fanbase would justify it somehow.

Haha, this is so rich

 

[raymond23]

The more realist answer is there’s some contingency of Red Wing fans that have a dedicated cult of personality around Yzerman the man and won’t give an inch to any discussion that he’s been anything less than exemplary in his tenure as Red Wing GM. So there’s a lot of tire kicking because you still have some guys going so far as to say the wings are on their way to being a perennial SCF contender, “soon enough”. You won’t see long discussions pertaining to similarly situated teams because those fan bases aren’t so dedicated to defending their GM’s honor at all costs so discussions would range from “idk needs more time” if GM is relatively new to “yeah idc they can fire the guy” if he’s been there for a bit.

First of all - if you were to join in on discussions on the DRW board you would find that not the be the case whatsoever. Yzerman is criticized a ton. Whatever particular group you’re referring to is like 1% of the DRW fanbase so it’s weird to be so caught up with it

Secondly - considering all that Yzerman has done for the franchise as a player, why is it surprising that Red Wings fans (particularly older ones) show stubborn support for him and are willing to be patient?

Like what are you even arguing? Lol

 

[Lampedampe]

If that's the case, then the 20 posts a page from Red Wings fans defending Stevie would indicate he lives mortgage-free in theirs. As it is, I wouldn't have much reason to reply if said posts addressed his actual record and the facts as opposed to ad hominem attacks like this.



Or, like, dump off a defenseman for a 2nd who then immediately became a #2/#3 at worst on a different team for literal FUTURE CONSIDERATIONS. But no, it's just because all us non Red Wings fans are big mad about the teams they were able to roll out before the salary cap existed nearly 20 years ago now.

Nooo please, stop hurting our feelings with facts and logic!

Is it your life's mission to open up the mind of this unreasonable rabid hoard of Yzerman groupies?

 

[raymond23]

Why is this thread still thing? What is even being argued in here?

 

[Fatass]

Why is this thread still thing? What is even being argued in here?

Imo what’s being discussed is why the Wings are doing bad again? And if Yzerman is at fault for the club being bad again?
So yes the thread is valid. Yzerman has done good, but not great. He’s made an average team. That isn’t good enough.,not too sure what he can do now to make the team better?

 

[norrisnick]

Imo what’s being discussed is why the Wings are doing bad again? And if Yzerman is at fault for the club being bad again?
So yes the thread is valid. Yzerman has done good, but not great. He’s made an average team. That isn’t good enough.,not too sure what he can do now to make the team better?

Wait. Average is a massive improvement from the worst team of the cap era only 4 years go. Knee-jerk moves when half your top picks are a year or two from cracking the NHL is silly. 2024-2025 is irrelevant for what Yzerman is trying to do. I don't know how many times he, or others, need to say it. But it is what it is.

 

[WarriorofTime]

First of all - if you were to join in on discussions on the DRW board you would find that not the be the case whatsoever. Yzerman is criticized a ton. Whatever particular group you’re referring to is like 1% of the DRW fanbase so it’s weird to be so caught up with it

Yeah, talking about the people in the main threads that keep these discussions so animated, not every single Detroit Red Wing fan as a monolith, just those specific people.

Secondly - considering all that Yzerman has done for the franchise as a player, why is it surprising that Red Wings fans (particularly older ones) show stubborn support for him and are willing to be patient?

Sure, he's a demigod of a player and came in with a great reputation as an Exec. Teams hire former player icons that don't succeed, and it can be hard to accept, and teams hire execs that come in with great reputations that don't succeed, and it can be hard to accept. Smash the two together, and well it can be really hard to accept and that's where we're at.

Like what are you even arguing? Lol

Responding to why these threads get 50 pages. Like you think people would keep responding if there were just some lukewarm defenses given?

 

[SirKillalot]

The more realist answer is there’s some contingency of Red Wing fans that have a dedicated cult of personality around Yzerman the man and won’t give an inch to any discussion that he’s been anything less than exemplary in his tenure as Red Wing GM. So there’s a lot of tire kicking because you still have some guys going so far as to say the wings are on their way to being a perennial SCF contender, “soon enough”. You won’t see long discussions pertaining to similarly situated teams because those fan bases aren’t so dedicated to defending their GM’s honor at all costs so discussions would range from “idk needs more time” if GM is relatively new to “yeah idc they can fire the guy” if he’s been there for a bit.

It has more to do with other people wanting to trash him as much as possible and put it together with unrealistic results without any explanation towards why he should have some phantom results they have in their heads.

Bolded is 1000% accurate. I’ve read this board for over 10 years, and I’ve genuinely never seen a fanbase in such extreme denialism as some (not all) Red Wings fans with Yzerman. It’s like he could trade a first for a fourth, and that segment of the fanbase would justify it somehow.

Not true.

Or, like, dump off a defenseman for a 2nd who then immediately became a #2/#3 at worst on a different team for literal FUTURE CONSIDERATIONS. But no, it's just because all us non Red Wings fans are big mad about the teams they were able to roll out before the salary cap existed nearly 20 years ago now.

Not sure what you're even trying to say.

Imo what’s being discussed is why the Wings are doing bad again? And if Yzerman is at fault for the club being bad again?
So yes the thread is valid. Yzerman has done good, but not great. He’s made an average team. That isn’t good enough. Not too sure what he can do now to make the team better?

Yes, he has done good but not great. Is he supposed to have created a playoff contender by now while building through the draft?

Wait. Average is a massive improvement from the worst team of the cap era only 4 years go. Knee-jerk moves when half your top picks are a year or two from cracking the NHL is silly. 2024-2025 is irrelevant for what Yzerman is trying to do. I don't know how many times he, or others, need to say it. But it is what it is.

To a degree this. Overall its fairly irrelevant, as one is still waiting for pieces to ripe. Would one want to have some players done better of those temporarily signed ones, yes. Would it mean so much in the overall scheme of things, probably not.

Sure, he's a demigod of a player and came in with a great reputation as an Exec. Teams hire former player icons that don't succeed, and it can be hard to accept, and teams hire execs that come in with great reputations that don't succeed, and it can be hard to accept. Smash the two together, and well it can be really hard to accept and that's where we're at.

No, that's where people outside of the franchise who cheer for other teams are at. Where they through video games have some weird understanding that a team suddenly should be top 3 in the league within 3-4 years. In real life such is just not the case. On rare occasions it can be, if everything falls your way with lottery picks, signing generational players from it and role players at the same time, then it could be possible, but rarely is that luck on one's side to that degree of example Penguins of mid 2000's.
Example
Franchise goalie 1st overall in 2003 - Marc-Andre Fleury
Franchise center 2nd overall in 2004 - Evgeni Malkin
Bottom four d-man 2nd round in 2004 - Alex Goligoski
Role player bottom six/middle six 4th round in 2004 - Tyler Kennedy
Franchise center 1st overall in 2005 - Sidney Crosby
Top 4/top pair defenseman 3rd round 2005 - Kris Letang
"Franchise" good 2nd line/3rd line center as 2nd overall in 2006 - Jordan Staal
Added with some other high end picks who became role players and UFA signings or trades of other role players. With all that it took 6 years from drafting the 1st one to winning, 5 years to be contender/strong outsider. That's with 4 picks in the top 2.
Technically two other middle of the pack 1st rounders in 2000 and 2001 that became role players as well in Colby Armstrong (traded before Championship) and Brooks Orpik, as well as another role player in Maxime Talbot drafted late in 2002.

Or how about if we look at Chicago Blackhawks. They won in 2010 their first Championship.
Franchise D-man 2nd round pick in 2002 - Duncan Keith
Franchise D-man 1st round pick in 2003 - Keith Seabrook
Solid goalie in 2nd round in 2003 - Corey Crawford
Solid D-man in 8th round in 2003 - Dustin Byfuglien
3rd overall D-man in 2004 - Cam Barker (traded for Nick Leddy+ who didn't make the 2010 team but the later teams became solid bottom 4 d-man)
Solid role player in 2nd round 2004 - Dave Bolland
Solid role player in 2nd round 2004 - Bryan Bickell (not so impactful 1st Championship but later)
Solid role player in 7th round in 2004 - Troy Brouwer
7th overall pick in 2005 - Jack Skille (traded for Michael Frolik who was a feasible role player)
Top four d-man in 4th round in 2005 - Niclas Hjalmarsson (bottom pair first, later top 4)
Franchise center 3rd overall in 2006 - Jonathan Toews
Franchise winger 1st overall in 2007 - Patrick Kane
Role player in 5th round in 2009 - Marcus Kruger (not part of 1st Championship, but later)
Middle six center 1st round pick in 2011 - Philipp Danault (later traded for Weise and Fleischmann)
Top Six/Middle six forward in 2nd round in 2011 - Brandon Saad
Role player in 5th round in 2011 - Andrew Shaw

Plus have to add UFA's and other trades. like impact players Brian Campbell signed in 2008 and Marian Hossa signed summer of 2009.

So it took 8 & 7 years from drafting essentially 2 franchise d-men & solid d-man & good goalie.
6 years and 5 years from drafting solid role players, 4 and 3 years from drafting franchise forwards.
One year less to be fairly competitive as an outsider as they lost Conference final in 5 in 2009.

 

[Seras]

You gotta let the man cook or replace him with someone better.

Anything else is pissing in the wind

 

[LarKing]

The more realist answer is there’s some contingency of Red Wing fans that have a dedicated cult of personality around Yzerman the man and won’t give an inch to any discussion that he’s been anything less than exemplary in his tenure as Red Wing GM. So there’s a lot of tire kicking because you still have some guys going so far as to say the wings are on their way to being a perennial SCF contender, “soon enough”. You won’t see long discussions pertaining to similarly situated teams because those fan bases aren’t so dedicated to defending their GM’s honor at all costs so discussions would range from “idk needs more time” if GM is relatively new to “yeah idc they can fire the guy” if he’s been there for a bit.

Every fanbase has their delusional outspoken fans. Most Wings fans in this thread are not the type you're speaking of. If you take a look at our board, most fans I've seen on this site are quite critical of him.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Every fanbase has their delusional outspoken fans. Most Wings fans in this thread are not the type you're speaking of. If you take a look at our board, most fans I've seen on this site are quite critical of him.

There's no sense in trying to argue with these people. According to them their crazy fans don't exist or don't speak for all of them but any lunatic wing fan that's dotter or worse speaks for the entire fanbase and is representative of us all.
They're at best trolls and at worse, really uneducated knuckle draggers who exhibit the worse trait possible, being unable to admit they're wrong.

It's the same bs arguments they make, it's the same "outrage" takes they push, they just keep moving the goal posts around and then when you point out where they're wrong or how they're wrong enough they circle back to their original crap and it's just exhausting to deal with them. Reminds me of a toddler who needs a nap but keeps trying to stay up.

 

[Czechboy]

There's no sense in trying to argue with these people. According to them their crazy fans don't exist or don't speak for all of them but any lunatic wing fan that's dotter or worse speaks for the entire fanbase and is representative of us all.
They're at best trolls and at worse, really uneducated knuckle draggers who exhibit the worse trait possible, being unable to admit they're wrong.

It's the same bs arguments they make, it's the same "outrage" takes they push, they just keep moving the goal posts around and then when you point out where they're wrong or how they're wrong enough they circle back to their original crap and it's just exhausting to deal with them. Reminds me of a toddler who needs a nap but keeps trying to stay up.

THIS

This is the post of the day and I thank you for it.

Also,

This is exactly why there are 2 shit on Yzerman threads and this one has made it to page 49.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Seider and Edvinsson as building blocks is insane.

 

[SirloinUB]

It has more to do with other people wanting to trash him as much as possible and put it together with unrealistic results without any explanation towards why he should have some phantom results they have in their heads.

To a degree this. Overall its fairly irrelevant, as one is still waiting for pieces to ripe. Would one want to have some players done better of those temporarily signed ones, yes. Would it mean so much in the overall scheme of things, probably not.

No, that's where people outside of the franchise who cheer for other teams are at. Where they through video games have some weird understanding that a team suddenly should be top 3 in the league within 3-4 years. In real life such is just not the case. On rare occasions it can be, if everything falls your way with lottery picks, signing generational players from it and role players at the same time, then it could be possible, but rarely is that luck on one's side to that degree of example Penguins of mid 2000's.
Example
Franchise goalie 1st overall in 2003 - Marc-Andre Fleury
Franchise center 2nd overall in 2004 - Evgeni Malkin
Bottom four d-man 2nd round in 2004 - Alex Goligoski
Role player bottom six/middle six 4th round in 2004 - Tyler Kennedy
Franchise center 1st overall in 2005 - Sidney Crosby
Top 4/top pair defenseman 3rd round 2005 - Kris Letang
"Franchise" good 2nd line/3rd line center as 2nd overall in 2006 - Jordan Staal
Added with some other high end picks who became role players and UFA signings or trades of other role players. With all that it took 6 years from drafting the 1st one to winning, 5 years to be contender/strong outsider. That's with 4 picks in the top 2.
Technically two other middle of the pack 1st rounders in 2000 and 2001 that became role players as well in Colby Armstrong (traded before Championship) and Brooks Orpik, as well as another role player in Maxime Talbot drafted late in 2002.

Or how about if we look at Chicago Blackhawks. They won in 2010 their first Championship.
Franchise D-man 2nd round pick in 2002 - Duncan Keith
Franchise D-man 1st round pick in 2003 - Keith Seabrook
Solid goalie in 2nd round in 2003 - Corey Crawford
Solid D-man in 8th round in 2003 - Dustin Byfuglien
3rd overall D-man in 2004 - Cam Barker (traded for Nick Leddy+ who didn't make the 2010 team but the later teams became solid bottom 4 d-man)
Solid role player in 2nd round 2004 - Dave Bolland
Solid role player in 2nd round 2004 - Bryan Bickell (not so impactful 1st Championship but later)
Solid role player in 7th round in 2004 - Troy Brouwer
7th overall pick in 2005 - Jack Skille (traded for Michael Frolik who was a feasible role player)
Top four d-man in 4th round in 2005 - Niclas Hjalmarsson (bottom pair first, later top 4)
Franchise center 3rd overall in 2006 - Jonathan Toews
Franchise winger 1st overall in 2007 - Patrick Kane
Role player in 5th round in 2009 - Marcus Kruger (not part of 1st Championship, but later)
Middle six center 1st round pick in 2011 - Philipp Danault (later traded for Weise and Fleischmann)
Top Six/Middle six forward in 2nd round in 2011 - Brandon Saad
Role player in 5th round in 2011 - Andrew Shaw

Plus have to add UFA's and other trades. like impact players Brian Campbell signed in 2008 and Marian Hossa signed summer of 2009.

So it took 8 & 7 years from drafting essentially 2 franchise d-men & solid d-man & good goalie.
6 years and 5 years from drafting solid role players, 4 and 3 years from drafting franchise forwards.
One year less to be fairly competitive as an outsider as they lost Conference final in 5 in 2009.

Excellent analysis!

 

[aRielzinhooo]

What can you expect. They have 2 amazing pieces in Seider and Raymond. After that nothing special. Defence is horrible. Even worse when Määttä is not there anymore. Larkin would be amazing as number 2 center but I dont think he would be number 1 in a good team.

 

[Czechboy]

Seider and Edvinsson as building blocks is insane.

I don't like the Wing's 'Blues won a cup argument without stars' argument because I feel that is the exception and not the norm. But, I do remember in the Cup run, that the Blue's played the living shit out of 3 D to win a cup (I want to say Parayko/Pietr/Boumweister but could be talking out my ass here). Seider/Edvin/ASP may be a similarly formidable trio in a few years.

 

[norrisnick]

I don't like the Wing's 'Blues won a cup argument without stars' argument because I feel that is the exception and not the norm. But, I do remember in the Cup run, that the Blue's played the living shit out of 3 D to win a cup (I want to say Parayko/Pietr/Boumweister but could be talking out my ass here). Seider/Edvin/ASP may be a similarly formidable trio in a few years.

Sure, but who is going to give the Wings superstars? No one, so... what alternative is there? Just keep being bad? Not playing the good young kids you drafted? And then what? Just continuously being bad is not a plan.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

The more realist answer is there’s some contingency of Red Wing fans that have a dedicated cult of personality around Yzerman the man and won’t give an inch to any discussion that he’s been anything less than exemplary in his tenure as Red Wing GM. So there’s a lot of tire kicking because you still have some guys going so far as to say the wings are on their way to being a perennial SCF contender, “soon enough”. You won’t see long discussions pertaining to similarly situated teams because those fan bases aren’t so dedicated to defending their GM’s honor at all costs so discussions would range from “idk needs more time” if GM is relatively new to “yeah idc they can fire the guy” if he’s been there for a bit.

This is spot on.

It also totally makes sense why Red Wings fans vehemently defend Yzerman in a way that other fanbases don’t vehemently defend their GMs, although I don’t remember Avalanche fans defending Sakic the same way when Colorado struggled.

 

[Czechboy]

Sure, but who is going to give the Wings superstars? No one, so... what alternative is there? Just keep being bad? Not playing the good young kids you drafted? And then what? Just continuously being bad is not a plan.

No one gives superstars but some teams have them and some don't. That would be on the GM.

The optimist in me thinks the best case scenario is:

Ed continues to be great. Seider continues to be great. Larkin continues to be great and ages well. Raymond keeps improving to a 100 point guy. Asp shows up as advertised. One of the 2 drafted goalies meets their potential as a NHL starter with Vezina ceiling. Some of the other draft picks exceed expectations.

While all this happens, Stevie Y signs much better free agents than he has up to now, to support those guys. Going from spot fillers to difference makers.

After that, Wing's should be a good squad and become a destination again (i'm an Oil fan and we were on EVERYBODIES NTC and NMC and now are attracting good players because we don't totally suck) and they fill in the rest.

That, to me, is the best case scenario.

OR

Look into LTIR as Vegas has had some great success with it. And they have yet to draft a superstar and are a consistent cup threat.

Here are their draft picks.. pretty meh

NHL Records

records.nhl.com

yet they have been to a cup final and won a cup in the last 5 years. Hertl, Eichel, Pietrangelo and Stone are all pretty damn good.

OR

hope you luck out and get an amazign top line with non elite picks... best one I can think of is the perfection line - Pasta (late 1st) and Marchand/Bergeron (2nd and 3rd rounders - can't remember which order) and they signed Chara. That core worked for a long damn time!

But, all of that requires a shrewd GM that can really identify talent and get some steals. As an Oiler fan, we haven't had one of those in a long time.lol

Edit: I will add that Detroit benefited greatly from late round steals in their amazing runs.. I don't believe Datsyuk, Lidstrom or Zetterberg were first rounders? Today's equivalent would be a Kucherov or Kaprisov I think as neither was a first rounder. Actually, Panarin would fit that bill too. Or at least I don't think they were first rounders. I'm better with Czech players.lol

 

[norrisnick]

No one gives superstars but some teams have them and some don't. That would be on the GM.

The optimist in me thinks the best case scenario is:

Ed continues to be great. Seider continues to be great. Larkin continues to be great and ages well. Raymond keeps improving to a 100 point guy. Asp shows up as advertised. One of the 2 drafted goalies meets their potential as a NHL starter with Vezina ceiling. Some of the other draft picks exceed expectations.

While all this happens, Stevie Y signs much better free agents than he has up to now, to support those guys. Going from spot fillers to difference makers.

After that, Wing's should be a good squad and become a destination again (i'm an Oil fan and we were on EVERYBODIES NTC and NMC and now are attracting good players because we don't totally suck) and they fill in the rest.

That, to me, is the best case scenario.

OR

Look into LTIR as Vegas has had some great success with it. And they have yet to draft a superstar and are a consistent cup threat.

Here are their draft picks.. pretty meh

NHL Records

records.nhl.com

yet they have been to a cup final and won a cup in the last 5 years. Hertl, Eichel, Pietrangelo and Stone are all pretty damn good.

OR

hope you luck out and get an amazign top line with non elite picks... best one I can think of is the perfection line - Pasta (late 1st) and Marchand/Bergeron (2nd and 3rd rounders - can't remember which order) and they signed Chara. That core worked for a long damn time!

But, all of that requires a shrewd GM that can really identify talent and get some steals. As an Oiler fan, we haven't had one of those in a long time.lol

So Chiarelli is a GOATed GM for the superstars on the Oil? That tracks...

 

[le_sean]

Yeah terrible drafting and terrible signings usually end up making your team terrible

 

[Czechboy]

So Chiarelli is a GOATed GM for the superstars on the Oil? That tracks...

Darn, I tried to have a serious talk and you don't want one. I'll move on. You totally missed my point but I'm sure you know that. Drai and McD were drafted by different GM's btw. And neither GM was very good. Nor was the next GM. Nor is the current GM (unless he pulls a rabbit out of his ass this season with his first big move - color me skeptical)

So I'll retract my post.. you're right. It's impossible to get superstars and good players unless you get them in the draft. It is the only way to succeed. Detroit is a victim of not winning draft lotteries.. just like Boston, Florida and Vegas who were all gifted lottery pick after lottery pick on the way to their cups.