Dermott Discussion

[wingman75]

I'd say that's probably how the team views it.
My question was more how do the fans view the depth chart.

Hard to say for me, what is Holl? Is Muzzin done or just injured? That dictates a lot, because we need those guys to be 3-4 guys... so, I have two lists, one for best case and one based on the reality of the season:
Best case:

1. Rielly
2. Brodie
3. Muzzin
4. Holl
5. Sandin
6. Lilligren
7. Dermott

Actual (for me):

1. Rielly
2. Brodie
3. Sandin
4. Muzzin
5. Lilligren
6. Dermott
7. Holl

Holl, at some points hasn't even been able to turn without falling down... and just panicing with the puck in the d zone under pressure. He has stabilized a little before being out with Covid... hoping we can see more of that. Despite some mistakes, Sandin has been more consistent that M+H imo and Timmy is still making a lot of mistakes both with and without the puck.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Maybe man, I dunno... I am just relaying information that I read on the player. But I don't know if I would call Demott one of the worst performing players... he's been alright, but I think the organization has to make a call on his value, either to the team or in brining in other pieces that are perhaps more valuable.

Sorry my post upset you so

Who's upset?

 

[wingman75]

Who's upset?

No one. I was just projecting. Hence the smiley face.

 

[dubplatepressure]

No one. I was just projecting. Hence the smiley face.

I stand by what I think I said there though - Dermott and Ritchie have been - relative to expectations - the worst performers on this team. I think guys like Clifford, Anderson, Dahlstrom, etc are not expected to contribute and thus when they don't it surprises or disappoints no one.

 

[wingman75]

I stand by what I think I said there though - Dermott and Ritchie have been - relative to expectations - the worst performers on this team. I think guys like Clifford, Anderson, Dahlstrom, etc are not expected to contribute and thus when they don't it surprises or disappoints no one.

Right. I feel Holl and Muzzin have underperformed more. As far as forwards go, no doubt about it.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I stand by what I think I said there though - Dermott and Ritchie have been - relative to expectations - the worst performers on this team. I think guys like Clifford, Anderson, Dahlstrom, etc are not expected to contribute and thus when they don't it surprises or disappoints no one.

Take your pick wrt expectations either Muzzy or Dermy for sure .. Holl always sucked wrt skills but his play defensively has regressed (likely because of Muzzy though) .. Dermy should be able to hang every night on a 2nd pair by now when required .. Muzzy it is a father time issue more than anything else it is just about when you expected da cliff fall to occur (to me I expected he would be fine this year but clearly we are gonna have issues for 2 further seasons and it likely gets worse) .. Dermy can still play effectively on 3rd pair so that is why i see it as a toss up wrt expectations

 

[Northernguy10]

I don't think Dermott has been a disappointment, look at who they've had him paired with the last couple of games and years. Literally subpar AHL defenseman, if you go back and watch it's been Dermott's partners that have been turning over the puck a lot. To be fair, I really don't think Sandin, Liljegren or Dermott have really proven to be better than one another. They all are in the same category, but for some reason Liljegren is the shinny new toy, Dermott is trash. I'm sure others don't really see it that way, but I think Dermott does have a lot of upside, probably the most out of the three and will probably do better elsewhere with a stable partner. He skates better than both Liljegren and Sandin. Can move the puck better as well, we saw it when he first came up. I also don't think Keefe loves him that much so that also plays a role. If he can clean up the need to be flashy at unnecessary times he's going to be a stud.

I agree with you. I'm a Dermott fan, probably one of the few in here I imagine. I hope he goes to another team and they just plug him in and let him play. I think he'll develop into a solid defender somewhere. I'd prefer it be here but it looks less likely by the week.

 

[Menzinger]

Yeah, Holl's experience is evident, even if his game isn't consistently top 4 execution.

I'd certainly say there's probably quite a gap between how the team values Holl vs fans, especially at the moment

 

[Dreakmur]

I'd certainly say there's probably quite a gap between how the team values Holl vs fans, especially at the moment

Analytics is supposed to eliminate management bias, but Holl seems immune.

 

[Apotheosis]

Dermott strikes me as a guy who will randomly get really good but as of right now he is not.

 

[Leafidelity]

Tools with no toolbox. He doesn't process the game at a speed that will see him higher than a 6-7 defenseman.

He needs someone to carry his pairing because his game is based around being reactionary with little in the way of offensive or defensive reads.

 

[Leafsfan74]

He was very reliable last year with Bogosian as his partner, he played physical and he has some upside as a regular defenseman.

A team can never have enough veteran D Men, it's the toughest position to play especially come playoffs.

It's why I prefer the slow development of guys during the season, have them prepared to play in the playoffs as injuries occur, shelter their minutes etc.

If anyone believes that the Rangers game wasn't a precursor to what their opponent will intend come
playoffs, I think they are sorely mistaken.

 

[jaric1862]

I find that a lot of people who are still on the "Dermott train" point to his underlying numbers, but then fail to realize that he gets those results playing sheltered third pairing minutes. And Even in those minutes this year, he hasn't been great.

 

[JA17]

I think with Dermott the issue is confidence. Especially after that blunder last year in the playoffs. If the Leafs want him to be a reliable top 4 defenseman, they have to build up his confidence in that spot again. We are in a unique situation where we are pretty much guaranteed to make the playoffs halfway through the season, but still have major issues to work out on the defensive side of things. There is time to experiment. They need to give him an extended look in the top 4. He has done all there is to do on the bottom pairing. It's time for him to make that next step

 

[nuck]

I am starting to hate this guy. His good games are so good and poised he looks like a top 4 NHL D. But over half the time he doesn't bring that. Has the tools, has the toolbox, but we see his evil twin too often. After 300 pro games I kind of think this is all he can do under Keefe. Not everyone thrives under every coach. I was never a fan of him playing his off side though. Brodie is an exception not an example.

 

[mapleleaf979]

Tools with no toolbox. He doesn't process the game at a speed that will see him higher than a 6-7 defenseman.

He needs someone to carry his pairing because his game is based around being reactionary with little in the way of offensive or defensive reads.

That seems to be his biggest issue. Babcock ruined his confidence, but the inevitable would have happened which is his lack of processing speed has him guessing about what he should do. Dermott is a great skater, he has no idea how to use that. I think he will improve after he is traded to another team with a fresh start. Sandin and Dermott cant be on the same team taking up 2 left side spots.

 

[Ciao]

He's younger and faster than Holl. I like that much about him.

I like it when he chases down a forward on a breakaway, which Holl, Muzzin and Sandin seem to have trouble doing. They just can't catch the faster skaters.

Brodie seems pretty good at coming out of nowhere to break up the rush too. You would think Rielly would excel at that too, but he seems to skate faster on the rush than he does on the backcheck where he often gives me the jitters.

If an opposing forward gets loose, I'd put my money on Brodie or Dermott to catch them. Not so much on Holl, Sandin, Muzzin -- and maybe Reilly.

The jury is out on Liljegren, but so far I like what I've seen in that department.

I'm more in favour of keeping younger, faster players like Dermott over older, slower players like Holl, but Holl seems to have the confidence of management and I would not be surprised if Dermott were traded.

 

[francis246]

That seems to be his biggest issue. Babcock ruined his confidence, but the inevitable would have happened which is his lack of processing speed has him guessing about what he should do. Dermott is a great skater, he has no idea how to use that. I think he will improve after he is traded to another team with a fresh start. Sandin and Dermott cant be on the same team taking up 2 left side spots.

how did babcock ruin his confidence? Dermott has looked the worst under Keefe. Dermott was actually progressing fine under Babcock and was tracking to be a top 4 d and Babcock was actually giving him the opportunity to play in the top 4 when guys like Muzzin and Jake Gardiner went down. That changed under Keefe. Not Babcock.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

If it just comes down to a change of scenery, and we want to make a deal during this season for a RD, why not do Ritchie + Dermott + prospect for Myers + Cousins with Nashville?

Money in vs. money out is practically identical (50k added for us). Myers has sucked in Nashville but had a ton of promise, not much unlike Dermott (who is almost the same age). Myers is getting healthy scratched a lot, so maybe Dermott has more luck for them (even as a RD). We get a guy we can try out for the rest of this year at RD with great upside, but is also great for our depth, and worst case we should be able to find a team to take him for next to nothing like we would need to do with Ritchie anyways. If he does well, we can move Holl in the offseason for a nice return and we have Rielly-Brodie, Muzzin-Myers, and Sandin-Liljegren as our pairings for next year.

Cousins is not necessarily struggling, but he is capped as a pesty 4th line forward anyways. People want Hagel badly... Well Cousins is that but older, a pending UFA (who maybe we considering re-signing), and a local kid with a Soo connection. He would fit well on our 4th line with Spezza and Simmonds, if we want a more "physical" line or if Engvall needs to play up when Kase inevitably gets hurt again. Ritchie has more upside than Cousins, should be able to replace what Cousins brought to Nashville but in a larger package, and considering Nashville is a team that plays Harpur and McCarron with regularity, I suspect they would find a nice role for Ritchie.

Give them a decent but expendable prospect to sweeten the pot and I think you have a deal the Leafs can get behind to improve their team without giving up anything major off of their roster. Win-Win proposition that seems like a match made in heaven really.

 

[Leafsfan74]

He's younger and faster than Holl. I like that much about him.

I like it when he chases down a forward on a breakaway, which Holl, Muzzin and Sandin seem to have trouble doing. They just can't catch the faster skaters.

Brodie seems pretty good at coming out of nowhere to break up the rush too. You would think Rielly would excel at that too, but he seems to skate faster on the rush than he does on the backcheck where he often gives me the jitters.

If an opposing forward gets loose, I'd put my money on Brodie or Dermott to catch them. Not so much on Holl, Sandin, Muzzin -- and maybe Reilly.

The jury is out on Liljegren, but so far I like what I've seen in that department.

I'm more in favour of keeping younger, faster players like Dermott over older, slower players like Holl, but Holl seems to have the confidence of management and I would not be surprised if Dermott were traded.

If it's a choice between keeping Holl or Dermott this year, I am keeping Holl. Maybe in two to three years I keep Dermott, but this team needs a physical presence come post season in the "get it done now" stage they are in.

If I am being honest, I try and keep both of them. Management has to address the needs as they have assessed of course and considering their limited cap space they at least have NHL calibre depth up front and back in which to arrange the pieces.

This alone is a feat considering their options on defense only a couple of years ago. This lack of legitimate NHL ready D, probably cost them at least one series.

 

[ACC1224]

If it's a choice between keeping Holl or Dermott this year, I am keeping Holl. Maybe in two to three years I keep Dermott, but this team needs a physical presence come post season in the "get it done now" stage they are in.

If I am being honest, I try and keep both of them. Management has to address the needs as they have assessed of course and considering their limited cap space they at least have NHL calibre depth up front and back in which to arrange the pieces.

This alone is a feat considering their options on defense only a couple of years ago. This lack of legitimate NHL ready D, probably cost them at least one series.

May just be my perception but I always found Dermott to be more physical than Holl.

 

[Gabriel426]

May just be my perception but I always found Dermott to be more physical than Holl.

I don’t find Holl physical at all and don’t understand why some says Holl is a physical RHD.
Holl is a big guy but he doesn’t play a physical game.
Dermott plays a physical game. My beef on Dermott is that he takes really bad pinches and gambles at the worst possible time. If I am Keefe, I would literally instruct him not to pinch or gamble in the 3rd period regardless of the score.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

You can sense da frustration in Dermy's development in this thread ... such a shame for a guy who can fly, for a guy who can hit/physical and for a guy with decent hands .. but as I said earlier it comes down to game reps and a vet partner to teach kids da ropes .. everyone sees that Dermy is doing da calcs in his head and he freakin hesitates .. and like everything in life he who hesitates is lost .. all anyone can hope for is da light bulb goes on one day and he plays up to his skill level .. if we trade him and he figures it out in western conference oh well .. but bottom line for this playoff run this particular season we need another top 4 defensive Dman really bad .. Holl is useless .. Sandin can't keep up .. Lily is a total rook .. Dermy is not delivering top 4 performance .. WE NEED ANOTHER TOP 4 DMAN TO STAND A REMOTE CHANCE IN ATLANTIC DIVISION

 

[ACC1224]

I don’t find Holl physical at all and don’t understand why some says Holl is a physical RHD.
Holl is a big guy but he doesn’t play a physical game.
Dermott plays a physical game. My beef on Dermott is that he takes really bad pinches and gambles at the worst possible time. If I am Keefe, I would literally instruct him not to pinch or gamble in the 3rd period regardless of the score.

Bad pinch can be the forward not reading the play correctly as well. It's not automatically the defensemans fault.

I find Holl pretty useless for the most part.

 

[Stephen]

Bad pinch can be the forward not reading the play correctly as well. It's not automatically the defensemans fault.

I find Holl pretty useless for the most part.

I wouldn’t ever engage in a passionate Holl vs Dermott debate but there are a lot of defensive situations where Holl’s wingspan and weight serve us better than Dermott.