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LeBrun: DeBrincat will most likely be traded, agent has submitted list of preferred destinations

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Ottawa-Gatineau has about 1.5 million people and is Sens country.

They haven't been around nearly as long as the Leafs and Habs so there is of course the disadvantage there, but they certainly have their loyal fans.

I'm sure they have loyal fans as long as tickets are cheap. Let's see if the same applies when the team actually tries to make a profit.

Ottawa -should- be able to raise ticket prices, make a profit and be successful because the average person in Ottawa has a higher income than in Toronto or Quebec. However, they haven't yet and it's either because there's not a strong enough demand for NHL-priced tickets or it was held back by the internal cap - which was a direct result of not enough people going and the team losing money.
 
I'm sure they have loyal fans as long as tickets are cheap. Let's see if the same applies when the team actually tries to make a profit.

Ottawa -should- be able to raise ticket prices, make a profit and be successful because the average person in Ottawa has a higher income than in Toronto or Quebec. However, they haven't yet and it's either because there's not a strong enough demand for NHL-priced tickets or it was held back by the internal cap - which was a direct result of not enough people going and the team losing money.

By your definition, it seems barely any city is a hockey city. Montreal and Toronto have had teams forever. If that's the standard then few measure up.
 
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By your definition, it seems barely any city is a hockey city. Mo real and Toronto have had teams forever. If that's the standard then few measure up.

Teams with NHL teams that are profitable are hockey cities, there's lots of them.
 
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I'm sure they have loyal fans as long as tickets are cheap. Let's see if the same applies when the team actually tries to make a profit.

Ottawa -should- be able to raise ticket prices, make a profit and be successful because the average person in Ottawa has a higher income than in Toronto or Quebec. However, they haven't yet and it's either because there's not a strong enough demand for NHL-priced tickets or it was held back by the internal cap - which was a direct result of not enough people going and the team losing money.
Ottawa's 21/22 revenue was 157 mil. Ottawa's population is 1.4 mil. = $112 contributed on avg. per fan.

Toronto's 21/22 revenue was 248 mil. Toronto's population is 6.3 mil. = $39 contributed on avg. per fan.

Ticket prices don't matter in this equation. It's basic math. Ottawa fans may pay less per game but each individual fan has to attend many more games that larger market fans in order to reach anywhere close to the same level of revenue. The reality, as presented above, is that individual fans in smaller markets consistently have to spend more of there income on the team than any individual fan in a larger market. Personally I don't see how any difference in income makes up for close to a 3x difference in per capita spending from the fan base.

But maybe I am wrong, so how much more should the average individual fan in Ottawa be expected to pay over larger market fans for demand to be "strong"?

The team has lost money because it was riddled with debt (primarily from the original purchase by Melnyk and never paid off), and because of horrible management. Revenue has jumped up 30 mil from pre-pandemic levels. If the sens lose money with proper management, new stadium ala edmonton, some success on the ice...then the market is just too small. But if that is the case then it's not an Ottawa problem because a 3rd of the league is in small markets with similar economic dynamics.
 
Ottawa's 21/22 revenue was 157 mil. Ottawa's population is 1.4 mil. = $112 contributed on avg. per fan.

Toronto's 21/22 revenue was 248 mil. Toronto's population is 6.3 mil. = $39 contributed on avg. per fan.

Ticket prices don't matter in this equation. It's basic math. Ottawa fans may pay less per game but each individual fan has to attend many more games that larger market fans in order to reach anywhere close to the same level of revenue. The reality, as presented above, is that individual fans in smaller markets consistently have to spend more of there income on the team than any individual fan in a larger market. Personally I don't see how any difference in income makes up for close to a 3x difference in per capita spending from the fan base.

But maybe I am wrong, so how much more should the average individual fan in Ottawa be expected to pay over larger market fans for demand to be "strong"?

The team has lost money because it was riddled with debt (primarily from the original purchase by Melnyk and never paid off), and because of horrible management. Revenue has jumped up 30 mil from pre-pandemic levels. If the sens lose money with proper management, new stadium ala edmonton, some success on the ice...then the market is just too small. But if that is the case then it's not an Ottawa problem because a 3rd of the league is in small markets with similar economic dynamics.

It's weird to divide the revenue by fans as if 6.3 million people can attend the games in a season. It's not even possible if every game a different fan went to one game a year and every single seat was sold out. That's even excluding season tickets, because those would be returning fans.

It's just that the wealthier fans are willing to spend more money to watch the Leafs. The population helps for sure, but the 'average' Toronto fan is actually priced out of Toronto home games and maybe goes to one every few years or travels to Ottawa or Buffalo for cheaper tickets.

Also - hasn't Ottawa lost money almost every year they're in the league? Obviously ticket prices and demand play a factor.

I guess we'll see if the new owner changes anything - maybe, it didn't change anything in Buffalo. I'm not sure what difference an owner can make.
 
People go to Ottawa cause tickets are cheap between two major markets - doesn't make it a hockey city.

Even during the WJC, the tickets were much cheaper in Ottawa so people preferred traveling there. However, it's not like most of the people there were Sens fans.

Ottawa is not really a hockey city, it's a commuter hockey city in that fans from Quebec and Toronto go because they can take their families to games for 1/5th of the price. However, because of the cheap tickets, Ottawa loses money every year. If the owner who just paid almost a billion for the team wants to make a profit, which would make sense, and hikes ticket prices - that will be a true test of if Ottawa can sustain a hockey market.
Wow is this post uninformed , guess you didn’t buy tickets for that WJC. Team broke all WJC ticket sales, at the time.

Lol @ losing money each year, in 2022 Forbes has Ottawa 13th in the league for operating profit , ahead of the cup champs Colorado, who had all that playoff revenue.
Nice try though at the troll.
 
Wow is this post uninformed , guess you didn’t buy tickets for that WJC. Team broke all WJC ticket sales, at the time.

Lol @ losing money each year, in 2022 Forbes has Ottawa 13th in the league for operating profit , ahead of the cup champs Colorado, who had all that playoff revenue.
Nice try though at the troll.

No they weren't. I'm not sure where you got those numbers. They've been losing money every year, it's not a troll. :laugh:
 
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No they weren't. I'm not sure where you got those numbers. They've been losing money every year, it's not a troll. :laugh:
Go look at Forbes , it’s not that hard, google will help you find it. Doubles down on troll lol,
 
Go look at Forbes , it’s not that hard, google will help you find it. Doubles down on troll lol,



Is this the Forbes link you're talking about? Operating income is not 'operating profit' nor are the Sens higher than Colorado.

Please provide your source.
 
Lol @ losing money each year, in 2022 Forbes has Ottawa 13th in the league for operating profit , ahead of the cup champs Colorado, who had all that playoff revenue.
Nice try though at the troll.
Supposedly, Melnyk was losing like $10 million a year on the team, and they were $450 million in debt.

 
Supposedly, Melnyk was losing like $10 million a year on the team, and they were $450 million in debt.



Yeah, he's publicly stated it multiple times but somehow people miss it. I remember he publicly complained to the media that the team is losing 10M a year when asked why he doesn't spend to the cap.
 
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Is this the Forbes link you're talking about? Operating income is not 'operating profit' nor are the Sens higher than Colorado.

Please provide your source.
No that just list team values.
Yes operating income., not profit. Yes they are higher operating income than the Cup champs that year. Those are all US dollars.

 
No that just list team values.
Yes operating income., not profit. Yes they are higher operating income than the Cup champs that year. Those are all US dollars.


I don't think you understand what operating income is. It makes no difference that Colorado was the Cup champs - that does not affect operating income.

I think you're confusing operating income with revenue, in which the Sens were the 7th worst. Just below Anaheim.
 
It's weird to divide the revenue by fans as if 6.3 million people can attend the games in a season. It's not even possible if every game a different fan went to and every single seat was sold out. That's even excluding season tickets, because those would be returning fans.

It's just that the wealthier fans are willing to spend more money to watch the Leafs. The population helps for sure, but the 'average' Toronto fan is actually priced out of Toronto home games and maybe goes to one every few years or travels to Ottawa or Buffalo for cheaper tickets.

The point is simply that the average Joe fan in smaller markets is already contributing a lot out of their pocket. And it's silly to think that, population aside, fans from a larger market would contribute any more if only the wealthy and corporations didn't buy up all the tickets.

There is nothing in the water that makes smaller fans less supportive than larger markets. If anything, the lack of wealthy and corporate dollars means they have to be more supportive.

Ottawa would have broken even many years if it were not for the cost of servicing the debt. EM bought the team for 130 mil, but it was really more like 430 mil because he assumed the existing debt. in excess of 300 mil from the original stadium build. So basically, it was 100 mil down and 300 on credit. (this may have been restructured in the sale but it would always have been significant) The debt cost a lot to service each year and the team couldn't cover the operating costs and all of the debt servicing. So EM had to pump 10 mil or so every year to cover the difference.

The last decade because of revenue growth from Local TV and central revenues has resulted in the team consistently generating an operating profit aside from debt. At the same time, EM stopped covering the difference and just let the debt. grow (I think details of the current sale mentioned it was at 450 mil).

Long story short, no small market can turn so much of a profit that it can pay off a 300 mil debt. is this a market factor, or an ownership issue? Seriously.

Ottawa was generating similar revenues to Edmonton before EM turned the market against the team and Edmonton build their new stadium. Edmonton has grown a bit faster and has a slightly higher income, but there is no reason to believe that Ottawa could not perform proportionally in terms of revenue once the stadium is built downtown. Note: Interesting that in Edmonton's case fans were on the hook to pay a 3rd of the stadium. (As opposed to Ottawa fans that were basically on the hook to pay for all of the stadium).


Again. If markets like Ottawa are too small to have a team then a good 3rd of the league is to small and there are not 10+ better markets to move the to. The league is not contracting. So the longer-term solution if that many teams are not making a profit is likely increased central revenues...which is exactly what has been happening, and many of these teams are doing much better.

In fact, one of the smaller markets just sold for almost 1 bil.
 
I don't think you understand what operating income is. It makes no difference that Colorado was the Cup champs - that does not affect operating income.

I think you're confusing operating income with revenue, in which the Sens were the 7th worst. Just below Anaheim.
I do It’s EBITDA, we’re done. Your just being obtuse and trolling, but you always do, so nothing new, cheers.
 
Owners really don't want profits (taxable as ordinary income annually) as opposed to value appreciation (taxable as long-term capital gains at about half the tax rate and only upon sale). If an owner has a annual loss, it can be applied against the income from their other investments and businesses.

Usually, if an owner is complaining about losses as the reason why they are not better funding their team, that is almost always just a cover for them being cheap while they watch their asset value rise as part of a league-wide increase in values, i.e., they have decided that putting more money into their team will not enhance its value any more than it will increase anyway, so what's the point.
 
I'm sure they have loyal fans as long as tickets are cheap. Let's see if the same applies when the team actually tries to make a profit.

Ottawa -should- be able to raise ticket prices, make a profit and be successful because the average person in Ottawa has a higher income than in Toronto or Quebec. However, they haven't yet and it's either because there's not a strong enough demand for NHL-priced tickets or it was held back by the internal cap - which was a direct result of not enough people going and the team losing money.
Higher MEDIAN income, not MEAN. Ottawa has a lot of upper-middle class, but few truly rich people. Every other Canadian city except Winnipeg has more rich people than Ottawa.

Ottawa's biggest disadvantage in selling season tickets, is that the largest employer (government) doesn't buy them as they can't write them off. Even Edmonton has a larger corporate community than Ottawa (oilpatch).

That's why the team is owned by another Torontonian. Only a few people in Ottawa rich enough to own the team, one of them (Malhotra) now owns 10-20% of the team.

As someone who grew up in the GTA and visits often, I'm proud our owner is from my hometown, and now likes the Sens, like me!
 
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If this is the expectation in Ottawa, there is going to be a TON of disappointment.

Odd tweet. First off, he doesn't want to go to half those teams, so why are they even on there? He gave a list of teams that he preferred (I read he'll extend with), so if he chooses 3 or 4 and they want him, the bids should be pretty good.
 
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