Player Discussion David Quinn: Part V

[duhmetreE]

I don’t hate the guy

I dont hate him either. I hate his personnel choices and his offensive 'gameplan'. There's no depth to our attack... It's literally 'poke Panarin with stick, 'do hockey'.'

We're heavily dependent on the counter-attack and opportunistic. For being a 'finesse team' our puck movement/support is ass. Our effort has been embarrassing ALL SEASON. NJD sucks really bad but at least they don't quit. We did not quit or have an effort issue last season. WTF happened to our 'forecheck? We've become extremely soft, passive and perimeter team.

I don't see how he can be afforded another season. I guess it depends on whos available. Worst comes to worst we can give him another set of training wheels... An offensive assistant to run the offense.

"The old East-West flu we have from time to time can be a detriment."

This guy continues to say things like he's a spectator. He's does not sound as if he's in control.

 

[effen]

I dont hate him either. I hate his personnel choices and his offensive 'gameplan'. There's no depth to our attack... It's literally 'poke Panarin with stick, 'do hockey'.'

We're heavily dependent on the counter-attack and opportunistic. For being a 'finesse team' our puck movement/support is ass. Our effort has been embarrassing ALL SEASON. NJD sucks really bad but at least they don't quit. We did not quit or have an effort issue last season. WTF happened to our 'forecheck? We've become extremely soft, passive and perimeter team.

I don't see how he can be afforded another season. I guess it depends on whos available. Worst comes to worst we can give him another set of training wheels... An offensive assistant to run the offense.

This guy continues to say things like he's a spectator. He's does not sound as if he's in control.

You've stumbled upon the *actual* reason to fire him, the top 2 lines follow his gameplan MAYBE 25% of the time, and that's probably generous. The kid line like half, and the 4th line most of the time.The puck movement and support is ass because the top 6 is freestyling and the rest of them suck at hockey. You are absolutely correct about him not being in control, he's not. It's 2021. You have to have buy in... and the pendulum swung the other direction. The Rangers have a low key insurrection problem and I'm surprised no one's touched on it by now.

 

[duhmetreE]

You've stumbled upon the *actual* reason to fire him, the top 2 lines follow his gameplan MAYBE 25% of the time, and that's probably generous. The kid line like half, and the 4th line most of the time.The puck movement and support is ass because the top 6 is freestyling and the rest of them suck at hockey. You are absolutely correct about him not being in control, he's not. It's 2021. You have to have buy in... and the pendulum swung the other direction. The Rangers have a low key insurrection problem and I'm surprised no one's touched on it by now.

I've said that pretty much all season. I agree with a lot of what Quinn says... but what happens on the ice contradicts it.

He either is....
a poor teams coach and can't convey the message.
His game plan is bad.
The players don't listen and as you call it, 'freestyle'
or it can be a combo of all 3.

Either way it's not good. We do not look like a team. We do not have an identity. Whatever our 'system' is, the players have not bought in. The same issues have plagued us all season.... How is this not on the coaching staff? Injuries and covid do not magically change or excuse this.

 

[huerter]

Because the lines don't all play the same way in transition and in the ozone it means the coach isn't connecting with the team?

 

[The New Russian Five]

Because the lines don't all play the same way in transition and in the ozone it means the coach isn't connecting with the team?

Actually, to a certain degree yes. When different lines do things differently it means players aren't on the same page. Which means when lines get shuffled (which as everyone knows, Quinn loves to do), they have very little understanding of what their line mates are going to do.

It's been three years under Quinn, and I still for the life of me can't figure out what our forecheck system is, or if there actually is one. Which is very different from when Renney, Torts, and AV were coaching. I could see some semblance of an identity on the forecheck.

Are the players part of the problem? Probably, maybe? Which is the more low-risk change though? Make big changes to the roster, or replace the coach? I would start with the coach just from a risk-adjusted basis.

 

[kovazub94]

There are posters that all they post is defenses of Quinn whenever someone in any thread dares criticize him. How are we supposed to take that?

Because it’s the same groundless accusation. And it’s not “whenever”. It’s around the clock 24/7, if you want to be close to what’s actually happens here.

Trust me, I’d like to discuss real Quinn’s decisions. Almost uniformly we all wanted Kreider off the first line a few weeks ago and were just waiting for the trigger. We could’ve normally discuss this and what’s stopping Quinn (or other interesting topics), but instead we had to talked about non-existent goalie “carousel” or how it was only his fault the Rangers are not making playoffs or how he’s ruining prospects.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Because it’s the same groundless accusation. And it’s not “whenever”. It’s around the clock 24/7, if you want to be close to what’s actually happens here.

Trust me, I’d like to discuss real Quinn’s decisions. Almost uniformly we all wanted Kreider off the first line a few weeks ago and were just waiting for the trigger. We could’ve normally discuss this and what’s stopping Quinn (or other interesting topics), but instead we had to talked about non-existent goalie “carousel” or how it was only his fault the Rangers are not making playoffs or how he’s ruining prospects.

We heard plenty about Kreider being on the top line, I don't remember the Quinn supporters being in agreement there. Now we have Blackwell with Strome and Panarin even though he hasn't done anything in weeks. Meanwhile Kravtsov is one of our better players and is banished to Siberia to play with Howden and Rooney. Also, I'm sorry but isolating the young players (other than Kravtsov) on the 3rd line and not giving them much ice time is a problem. And not giving Laf PP time until recently, having Blackwell there instead is also a problem. Blackwell is a decent player having a good season but he's not the type of guy that should be constantly blocking younger guys. He had a nice hot streak but he's a limited player with no future in this organization and his present isn't something that we can't live without in the top 6.

 

[kovazub94]

This approx. x1,000. I don’t even think much about Quinn one way or the other. He’s an ordinary, milquetoast NHL coach as far as I’m concerned.

When this team is ready a more extreme coach will be hired to push them to the edge.

Good luck finding that ideal of consistency in a sport dominated by chaos during which most matches aren’t far removed from coin flips. Yeah it’s a basic concept to simply win games by sheer willpower...until you realize the opponent is trying to do the same thing to you.

There are actually signs that show he’s better at coaching now than in his first or second season (or even earlier than this season).

Now (starting next season) as the team gets a little bit more mature, I want to see how he manages team in more or less regular season situations with normal ups and downs throughout 82 game season. I think he earned this chance, at least 1/2 regular season next year.

 

[kovazub94]

We heard plenty about Kreider being on the top line, I don't remember the Quinn supporters being in agreement there. Now we have Blackwell with Strome and Panarin even though he hasn't done anything in weeks. Meanwhile Kravtsov is one of our better players and is banished to Siberia to play with Howden and Rooney. Also, I'm sorry but isolating the young players (other than Kravtsov) on the 3rd line and not giving them much ice time is a problem. And not giving Laf PP time until recently, having Blackwell there instead is also a problem. Blackwell is a decent player having a good season but he's not the type of guy that should be constantly blocking younger guys. He had a nice hot streak but he's a limited player with no future in this organization and his present isn't something that we can't live without in the top 6.

See, you’re doing it again with exaggerations and taking away from having a reasonable discussion. Like - it hasn’t been “weeks” for Blackwell not producing. Or 3rd line has been fine as a 3rd line and the team’s forward top-6 led the Rangers to one of the best records in the NHL for over a month until after the Devils “series”. Is it somehow already completely gone from your memory?

On the other hand Kreider stopped working before and there were signs of trouble even in Devils series that Quinn actually talked about himself. Ask all Quinn’s bros and they will readily acknowledge this. But you seems to not read (to comprehend) these posts, and tbh, your act is getting very tiresome and exactly what’s been mentioned in multiple posts here in the last couple of days. Do you want someone to summarize them with multi-quote all in one place for you?

 

[SnowblindNYR]

See, you’re doing it again with exaggerations and taking away from having a reasonable discussion. Like - it hasn’t been “weeks” for Blackwell not producing. Or 3rd line has been fine as a 3rd line and the team’s forward top-6 led the Rangers to one of the best records in the NHL for over a month until after the Devils “series”. Is it somehow already completely gone from your memory?

On the other hand Kreider stopped working before and there were signs of trouble even in Devils series that Quinn actually talked about himself. Ask all Quinn’s bros and they will readily acknowledge this. But you seems to not read (to comprehend) these posts, and tbh, your act is getting very tiresome and exactly what’s been mentioned in multiple posts here in the last couple of days. Do you want someone to summarize them with multi-quote all in one place for you?

It HAS been weeks, his hot streak ended with the first Isles game and that was two weeks ago. Not that long ago, but still weeks. And it was really a couple of hot streaks that he had. He's not that great of a player. And the top 6 has 4 great players on it and 2 guys that needed to be replaced. Blackwell and Kreider needed to be replaced. There's no reason that Kravtsov should STILL be playing on the 4th line. He's arguably been our best youngster. And he backchecks well. Why is Quinn treating him like an over his head 18 year old? He showed he could hang on a higher line. Why is Blackwell there? Mika's line has looked the best it's looked in a while with Laf there. Sure, that would still leave Chytil and Kakko on the third line. But play them more.

Maybe I'm not seeing the criticism from the Quinn supporters, but I legit haven't seen the likes of True Blue do anything but criticize Quinn's critics.

Also, high level not delving into every detail. I don't understand why a team with 5 borderline PPG players or better, one of them having the second best point per game average in the league and one being a Norris level defenseman not making the playoffs not something that should raise eyebrows. I can think of two teams off the top of my head that has more than 5 players in that boat, Avs and Bolts. I'm sure there are more but top end talent we probably are top 5 in this league and we won't make the playoffs. And our depth is lacking but we have a top 4 D that's good, and a good top 6. And it could be a better top 6 if Blackwell and Kreider got demoted.

 

[Tawnos]

Overall, he's playing nearly two full minutes less per game than he did last year. This is the lowest TOI/G of his career, 30 seconds per game less than his 9 game cup of coffee season in 17/18.

He played 16 games in March, playing a total of 219:39. He's had 13 games in April. For him to hit his March totals, he'd have to play about 20 minutes per game for those three games, and that's not even taking into account the fact that Knobloch gave him a couple of games over 15 minutes in March (something Quinn hasn't done since Chytil's first two games back from injury).

Since 3/27, 11 of Chytil's 16 games have fallen below his current season average TOI/game, and he has regularly been among the bottom of the roster (usually one of the bottom two) during that span.

Call it whatever you want, but this team has one good young (sub-25 year old) center, he's actually been playing really solid hockey going back to the play in series last year, and his ice time has been slashed. It makes no sense. Chytil's ppg pace at even strength would put him neck and neck (with Chytil a point ahead) with Strome. Put Panarin on Chytil's left, give him Strome's additional 5+ minutes per night (which is largely made up of PP1 time), and I would be shocked if Chytil didn't at least match what Strome is doing.

It's closer to 1:45 that Chytil's ice time is less than last year... but Strome and Zibanejad are also seeing less ice time this year. Zibanejad ~1:35 less. Strome ~1:10 less.

Also, if you look at this in terms of shifts, which is probably a better indicator of how often the coach is sending a guy out there... last year Chytil played 18.5 shifts per game. This year it's 17.9. Yes, since 3/27 that's dropped to 16.6. But even so, you're talking about a difference of 2 shifts per game like it's this HUGE difference... and it's not. Slashed is not a good way to describe the situation.

And personally, I'd like to see him playing more too. I just think you're exaggerating the impact of what you're griping about.

 

[Tawnos]

It HAS been weeks, his hot streak ended with the first Isles game and that was two weeks ago. Not that long ago, but still weeks. And it was really a couple of hot streaks that he had. He's not that great of a player. And the top 6 has 4 great players on it and 2 guys that needed to be replaced. Blackwell and Kreider needed to be replaced. There's no reason that Kravtsov should STILL be playing on the 4th line. He's arguably been our best youngster. And he backchecks well. Why is Quinn treating him like an over his head 18 year old? He showed he could hang on a higher line. Why is Blackwell there? Mika's line has looked the best it's looked in a while with Laf there. Sure, that would still leave Chytil and Kakko on the third line. But play them more.

Blackwell had a really good stretch of 12 games that ended against the Islanders on the 20th. Of those 12 games, he had points in 8 of them, for a total of 12 points. He's been quiet for a few games now, though.

On the other hand, he played 1 more ES shift than Kakko and Kravtsov in the last game. He played 3 less than each in the game before. He played 1 more than Kravtsov and 2 more than Kakko in the game before that. So it really isn't like Quinn is putting Blackwell out way more than those guys lately either. Some games, he plays the fewest ES shifts of any RW on the team.

I think we'll continue to see Kravtsov mixed higher up in the lineup more and more.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Blackwell had a really good stretch of 12 games that ended against the Islanders on the 20th. Of those 12 games, he had points in 8 of them, for a total of 12 points. He's been quiet for a few games now, though.

On the other hand, he played 1 more ES shift than Kakko and Kravtsov in the last game. He played 3 less than each in the game before. He played 1 more than Kravtsov and 2 more than Kakko in the game before that. So it really isn't like Quinn is putting Blackwell out way more than those guys lately either. Some games, he plays the fewest ES shifts of any RW on the team.

I think we'll continue to see Kravtsov mixed higher up in the lineup more and more.

Why is he playing any shifts over Kravtsov or Kakko with Panarin and Strome?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Why is he playing any shifts over Kravtsov or Kakko with Panarin and Strome?

As much as I want those 2 to play higher up the line-up, it's hard to argue with Blackwell on the 2nd line while he's on pace for 50 points in a full season

 

[SnowblindNYR]

As much as I want those 2 to play higher up the line-up, it's hard to argue with Blackwell on the 2nd line while he's on pace for 50 points in a full season

It's not that hard to argue for me. I think he's a flash in the pan. He never produced like this before and he's what 27? Kravtsov has the much higher ceiling even now.

 

[True Blue]

Why is he playing any shifts over Kravtsov or Kakko with Panarin and Strome?

Because you are not the coach or GM.

This really bears repeating. Contrary to popular belief, Quinn is not some sort of Rasputin. If you believe that how the top prospects are handled is not a consensus with everyone from Gorton to JD to Drury being involved, you are out to lunch.

 

[Chytilmania]

As much as I want those 2 to play higher up the line-up, it's hard to argue with Blackwell on the 2nd line while he's on pace for 50 points in a full season

Blackwell has done a good job of putting himself in position to score. He has also done a good job shooting the puck. If Kakko was able to do that he'd be putting up 20 goals too. Vitali has definitely shown he should be on line 2 and can easily match and out produce what Blackwell has been doing.

 

[Savant]

We will see if Blackwell gets dropped once Rangers are officially eliminated. That would be more telling for me.

would like to see VK up the line up, but would also like to see VK with Kreider and Chytil. (And Kakko back with Strome and Panarin)

 

[jay from jersey]

We will see if Blackwell gets dropped once Rangers are officially eliminated. That would be more telling for me.

would like to see VK up the line up, but would also like to see VK with Kreider and Chytil. (And Kakko back with Strome and Panarin)

I’m done with his line up decisions. I just hope that since the playoffs are looking like an impossibility the kids get more minutes in all situations

 

[Shesterkybomb]

As much as I want those 2 to play higher up the line-up, it's hard to argue with Blackwell on the 2nd line while he's on pace for 50 points in a full season

I guess the argument would be that if he's part of the reason he's getting those points he would likely help another line as well. I guess the question is, is that line better with blackwell or Kravtsov, i think its Kravtsov especially against bigger teams, and as well whats the future of Blackwell in this org.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Ultimately Blackwell is a bottom-6 guy, we all know this. As of now the rotation, if there is one, is fine. Ease Kravtsov in there.

But Kakko is a travesty to me, staple him up there and wait ffs.

 

[kovazub94]

It’s hard to disagree (and I don’t think anyone would) that at this point 1LW or 2RW should belong to Lafreniere, Kakko or Kravtsov with the third prospect on Chytil’s wing. The difference is that earlier in the season Quinn tried these moves (Lafreniere and Kakko) and they didn’t work because prospects were not ready, so he turned to Kreider and Blackwell based on prior history (Kreider) and something that produced instantaneous results earlier in the season. Is Quinn an idiot or clown for doing this while playoffs were in sight? IMO hardly, as pretty much any coach in this situation would have gone for something that had a prior precedent, rather than for something that HOPEFULLY might have worked.

 

[haveandare]

Actually, to a certain degree yes. When different lines do things differently it means players aren't on the same page. Which means when lines get shuffled (which as everyone knows, Quinn loves to do), they have very little understanding of what their line mates are going to do.

It's been three years under Quinn, and I still for the life of me can't figure out what our forecheck system is, or if there actually is one. Which is very different from when Renney, Torts, and AV were coaching. I could see some semblance of an identity on the forecheck.

Are the players part of the problem? Probably, maybe? Which is the more low-risk change though? Make big changes to the roster, or replace the coach? I would start with the coach just from a risk-adjusted basis.

Why does it not mean that all world skill players can play ways and do things career 4th liners can’t? Why would or should a line with Panarin and Strome play the same game as a line with Howden and Rooney? They also have pretty different goals with their toi

 

[The New Russian Five]

Why does it not mean that all world skill players can play ways and do things career 4th liners can’t? Why would or should a line with Panarin and Strome play the same game as a line with Howden and Rooney? They also have pretty different goals with their toi

You do realize that there are 5 players on the ice right? This is the issue. Today's NHL institutes "5 in the picture" and tons of puck support on breakout and forechecks. I don't care how good your line is, if you aren't utilizing all your teammates, you are playing at disadvantage. Players like Panarin, Fox, and to a lesser extenet Mika and Buch get away with it, because their hockey IQs are extremely hight. But the team is more than just 4 players. And that is why you have a very talented roster with certain individual players having outstanding seasons, that is still at the end of the day looking from the outside in the playoff picture.

Edit: and I'll add something Tom Renney said when he was coach that I think is perfect point to make here. When he had the Jagr line, he said that he gave them tons of leeway to play their game, but that they had to still do it in the framework of the team strategy and philosophy. And those got bought into it, which is why that team, despite being a below average roster made the playoffs that year.

 

[haveandare]

You do realize that there are 5 players on the ice right? This is the issue. Today's NHL institutes "5 in the picture" and tons of puck support on breakout and forechecks. I don't care how good your line is, if you aren't utilizing all your teammates, you are playing at disadvantage. Players like Panarin, Fox, and to a lesser extenet Mika and Buch get away with it, because their hockey IQs are extremely hight. But the team is more than just 4 players. And that is why you have a very talented roster with certain individual players having outstanding seasons, that is still at the end of the day looking from the outside in the playoff picture.

Edit: and I'll add something Tom Renney said when he was coach that I think is perfect point to make here. When he had the Jagr line, he said that he gave them tons of leeway to play their game, but that they had to still do it in the framework of the team strategy and philosophy. And those got bought into it, which is why that team, despite being a below average roster made the playoffs that year.

Lol yes of course I realize there are 5 players on the ice. My point is that this idea what each line should play the same game or even each line on other teams does play the same game is a crazy oversimplification. They’ll have some overarching similarities or course but they don’t, can’t and shouldn’t be playing the same game to a large degree.