Player Discussion David Quinn: Part V

[kovazub94]

I call it speaking for the majority.

TB deserves a medal or at least board MVP honors for this thread alone.

Agree about True B. and welcome back @Bluenote13

 

[Tawnos]

Not really, I know they've had injuries and Panarin's situation but he has done far less with more than Torts. Outside of Lundqvist look at that 2011-2012 roster and it's not like Shesterkin is crap. Quinn has done less with more than any coach since Trottier/Low.

"It's not like Shesterkin is crap" is a far cry from "Shesterkin matches up ok with a Hall of Fame goalie at the absolute peak of his career"... Shesterkin isn't all that dissimilar right now to Jagr-era Lundqvist, but that excellent goalie wasn't anywhere near the same level as himself, 5 years later.

I think you underestimate the defensive ability of that group. Not just the defense itself, which had 2 of the best shutdown D in the entire league in their primes (plus Ryan McDonagh), but also the defensive capabilities of the forwards. Zibanejad might be the only Rangers forward that could be listed in the same group as Callahan, Dubinsky, Stepan, Hagelin, Boyle, or Richards in terms of defensive ability. So, acknowledging the lack of firepower, Tortorella implemented a system designed to let them use their defensive abilities to maximum potential. And again, this was in front of a Hall of Fame goalie at the absolute peak of his career. They overachieved compared to their offensive abilities, but that team still had more tools, and more experience understanding how to use those tools to win hockey games, than this current one does. Our roster, right now, is not better than that one.

There is absolutely more offensive talent on this year's roster than Tortorella had to work with, but offensive talent doesn't win you as many hockey games as you think it would. Look at Toronto the last few years. Look at Colorado. Look at Edmonton. There have been plenty of teams that had lots of firepower, but couldn't win consistently. It takes so much more than that.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

"It's not like Shesterkin is crap" is a far cry from "Shesterkin matches up ok with a Hall of Fame goalie at the absolute peak of his career"... Shesterkin isn't all that dissimilar right now to Jagr-era Lundqvist, but that excellent goalie wasn't anywhere near the same level as himself, 5 years later.

I think you underestimate the defensive ability of that group. Not just the defense itself, which had 2 of the best shutdown D in the entire league in their primes (plus Ryan McDonagh), but also the defensive capabilities of the forwards. Zibanejad might be the only Rangers forward that could be listed in the same group as Callahan, Dubinsky, Stepan, Hagelin, Boyle, or Richards in terms of defensive ability. So, acknowledging the lack of firepower, Tortorella implemented a system designed to let them use their defensive abilities to maximum potential. And again, this was in front of a Hall of Fame goalie at the absolute peak of his career. They overachieved compared to their offensive abilities, but that team still had more tools, and more experience understanding how to use those tools to win hockey games, then this current one does. Our roster, right now, is not better than that one.

There is absolutely more offensive talent on this year's roster than Tortorella had to work with, but offensive talent doesn't win you as many hockey games as you think it would. Look at Toronto the last few years. Look at Colorado. Look at Edmonton. There have been plenty of teams that had lots of firepower, but couldn't win consistently. It takes so much more than that.

That 2011-2012 team actually had a worse goal differential per game (0.49 vs. 0.54) but didn't seem to self destruct every time they were in a close game. That may be about youth and goaltending but also in my view has a lot to do with coaching.

 

[Tawnos]

That 2011-2012 team actually had a worse goal differential per game (0.49 vs. 0.54) but didn't seem to self destruct every time they were in a close game. That may be about youth and goaltending but also in my view has a lot to do with coaching.

It does have a lot to do with coaching... and that coaching is all about having the patience to let the team get the experience to be in that place and teaching them throughout. Which is what Tortorella did in 09-10 and 10-11 with the young guys. Which is what Quinn is doing right now with the young guys.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

It does have a lot to do with coaching... and that coaching is all about having the patience to let the team get the experience to be in that place and teaching them throughout. Which is what Tortorella did in 09-10 and 10-11 with the young guys. Which is what Quinn is doing right now with the young guys.

I know we got a raw deal in the division and a 56 game schedule, plus we've had more injuries than normal and the Panarin saga, but those two teams either made the playoffs (10-11) or came a shootout attempt away from making them in 09-10.

 

[aufheben]

He comes here and reads the boards.

Again, unless you have any evidence aside from pure conjecture, am calling the leaks close conspiracy as bs.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Duplicate

 

[Tawnos]

I know we got a raw deal in the division and a 56 game schedule, plus we've had more injuries than normal and the Panarin saga, but those two teams either made the playoffs (10-11) or came a shootout attempt away from making them in 09-10.

This Rangers team is in the same basic range as those two teams, despite the division we play in.

09-10: 0.530 (87 pts)
10-11: 0.567 (93 pts)
20-21: 0.537 (88 pts pace)

 

[SnowblindNYR]

This Rangers team is in the same basic range as those two teams, despite the division we play in.

09-10: 0.530 (87 pts)
10-11: 0.567 (93 pts)
20-21: 0.537 (88 pts pace)

But compare this roster to those, throw in 08-09 as well. It's not even close.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I also want to point that 05-06 team that had 100 points and was pacing for much more until the wheels fell off in the last 5 games had one great line and arguably one great player. Lundqvist was exceptional as a rookie but not elite yet. Shesterkin this season is probably on the same level. Panarin is probably a notch below Jagr that year but is pacing around 10-15 points less. We're not deep but we're deeper offensively and our top pairing is not even close. Honestly player for player you can argue that outside of Jagr everyone on this team is equal or better than anyone on that team. This was under Renney, not two potential HOF coaches in Torts and AV. Renney was good and underrated but look what he did with that team compared to Quinn this season. It's night and day.

 

[aufheben]

Except it was not hindsight, but foresight. Quinn is so transparent people called out his bad play before he did it.

This is the definition of confirmation bias.

 

[Tawnos]

But compare this roster to those, throw in 08-09 as well. It's not even close.

And there you are, once again, overestimating this roster.

08-09 is fundamentally the same thing we're discussing. That team was really, really good on the defensive side of the puck and, because of the personalities of Drury, Gomez, Naslund, Redden, Rozsival, and Mara, they basically never got rattled. If you remember, the fundamental problem with that team, beyond the lack of offensive firepower, was that they were *too* even keeled. Because of that, they were well on their way to missing the playoffs... losing almost all of their games in February... but then they brought in Tortorella and brought back Avery and that completely changed the team.

You've really gotta stop comparing rosters on paper. The most important things are not on paper.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

And there you are, once again, overestimating this roster.

08-09 is fundamentally the same thing we're discussing. That team was really, really good on the defensive side of the puck and, because of the personalities of Drury, Gomez, Naslund, Redden, Rozsival, and Mara, they basically never got rattled. If you remember, the fundamental problem with that team, beyond the lack of offensive firepower, was that they were *too* even keeled. Because of that, they were well on their way to missing the playoffs... losing almost all of their games in February... but then they brought in Tortorella and brought back Avery and that completely changed the team.

You've really gotta stop comparing rosters on paper. The most important things are not on paper.

This roster is fine, just because it doesn't have a bunch of grinders that play better defensively than offensively doesn't mean it's better, just different. This team is 10th in the league in goals against per game despite Shesterkin missing probably close to a quarter of the games and having uneven at best play from their backups.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

And there you are, once again, overestimating this roster.

08-09 is fundamentally the same thing we're discussing. That team was really, really good on the defensive side of the puck and, because of the personalities of Drury, Gomez, Naslund, Redden, Rozsival, and Mara, they basically never got rattled. If you remember, the fundamental problem with that team, beyond the lack of offensive firepower, was that they were *too* even keeled. Because of that, they were well on their way to missing the playoffs... losing almost all of their games in February... but then they brought in Tortorella and brought back Avery and that completely changed the team.

You've really gotta stop comparing rosters on paper. The most important things are not on paper.

I just wrote something out but this shitty site froze and I lost it, ugh. Not having a bunch of grinders that are better defensively than offensively doesn't make them better, just different. This team is 10th in the league in goals against while Shesterkin started only about half the games and two extremely erratic goalies started the rest of the games. f***, that 08-09 team allowed more goals than it scored. And players not getting rattled falls at least in part on the coach. Plus you just said the most important things aren't on paper and that's where coaching comes in.

 

[CLW]

This is the definition of confirmation bias.

Saying chances are high Quinn will play player A and B in this situation, and Quinn then plays player A and B, is NOT confirmation bias. It is an accurate understanding of the situation at hand.

 

[aufheben]

Saying chances are high Quinn will play player A and B in this situation, and Quinn then plays player A and B, is NOT confirmation bias. It is an accurate understanding of the situation at hand.

Like copy/pasted from Merriam-Webster.

 

[aufheben]

My favorite except from last night:

*3rd period ends*
[complaints about kids not playing in overtime]
*overtime actually begins*
*Chytil and Miller on ice—Penguins score*
[complaints about putting Chytil out in overtime]

 

[Tawnos]

I also want to point that 05-06 team that had 100 points and was pacing for much more until the wheels fell off in the last 5 games had one great line and arguably one great player. Lundqvist was exceptional as a rookie but not elite yet. Shesterkin this season is probably on the same level. Panarin is probably a notch below Jagr that year but is pacing around 10-15 points less. We're not deep but we're deeper offensively and our top pairing is not even close. Honestly player for player you can argue that outside of Jagr everyone on this team is equal or better than anyone on that team. This was under Renney, not two potential HOF coaches in Torts and AV. Renney was good and underrated but look what he did with that team compared to Quinn this season. It's night and day.

This is nothing more than faulty memory, or purposely twisting things to fit your narrative. That top line was great, for sure, but I feel like you're really underselling how good Rucinsky and Sykora were for us that season. Well, half season for Sykora. Plus, we had Prucha lighting it up on the powerplay and some really quality 2-way play from Rucchin. The chemistry of that forward group overrode any coaching maneuvers Renney made, aside from the one that sparked it (team building trip before the season started). Renney simply got out of the way. Would Quinn do the same in the right circumstance? Probably not, but either way this is not the right circumstance. Tortorella wouldn't either. Yes, that team basically had no 3rd line.. but the HBO line was far superior to our current 4th line. The Malik-Rozsival pairing was one of the most criminally underrated pairings in Rangers history. Tyutin was excellent. Kasparaitis was excellent. Admittedly Poti and Strudwick sucked. Still, that team was 4th in GA. You get there from coaching, sure, as well as the quality of the players... and also from a top-5 goalie performance in the league which we got from Lundqvist (until the wheels fell off on him due to the migraines, which made the wheels fall off the team). Is Shesterkin giving us a top-5 goalie performance?

I just wrote something out but this shitty site froze and I lost it, ugh. Not having a bunch of grinders that are better defensively than offensively doesn't make them better, just different. This team is 10th in the league in goals against while Shesterkin started only about half the games and two extremely erratic goalies started the rest of the games. f***, that 08-09 team allowed more goals than it scored. And players not getting rattled falls at least in part on the coach. Plus you just said the most important things aren't on paper and that's where coaching comes in.

The coach has been teaching them not to get rattled and to stay on top of things. It's not consistent and they still have lapses, but they've really made a lot of progress over the course of the season. Completely shutting down a game against a superior opponent after being up 2-1 going into a 3rd period is not something this team was capable of doing 20 games ago, but they are now.

Obviously, I'm not someone who believes that coaching has little effect. I think it has a big effect. I just don't think that the team's record is a result of poor coaching from Quinn. I don't think the Rangers are underachieving. The team is exactly where they were expected to be. Exactly. "Not overachieving" is not the same thing as underachieving.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

This is nothing more than faulty memory, or purposely twisting things to fit your narrative. That top line was great, for sure, but I feel like you're really underselling how good Rucinsky and Sykora were for us that season. Well, half season for Sykora. Plus, we had Prucha lighting it up on the powerplay and some really quality 2-way play from Rucchin. The chemistry of that forward group overrode any coaching maneuvers Renney made, aside from the one that sparked it (team building trip before the season started). Renney simply got out of the way. Would Quinn do the same in the right circumstance? Probably not, but either way this is not the right circumstance. Yes, that team basically had no 3rd line.. but the HBO line was far superior to our current 4th line. The Malik-Rozsival pairing was one of the most criminally underrated pairings in Rangers history. Tyutin was excellent. Kasparaitis was excellent. Admittedly Poti and Strudwick sucked. Still, that team was 4th in GA. You get there from coaching, sure, as well as the quality of the players... and also from a top-5 goalie performance in the league which we got from Lundqvist (until the wheels fell off on him due to the migraines, which made the wheels fall off the team). Is Shesterkin giving us a top-5 goalie performance?



The coach has been teaching them not to get rattled and to stay on top of things. It's not consistent and they still have lapses, but they've really made a lot of progress over the course of the season. Completely shutting down a game against a superior opponent after being up 2-1 going into a 3rd period is not something this team was capable of doing 20 games ago, but they are now.

Obviously, I'm not someone who believes that coaching has little effect. I think it has a big effect. I just don't think that the team's record is a result of poor coaching from Quinn. I don't think the Rangers are underachieving. The team is exactly where they were expected to be. Exactly. "Not overachieving" is not the same thing as underachieving.

I feel like you're highlighting every possible positive aspect of those teams and downplaying anything positive with this team to make a point. Sure if you dive deeply in Prucha was a good player that year and Rucinsky and Sykora were decent. But they weren't anything special when it came to a second line. KZB or Panarin/Strome/Whomever is better than that second line. Sure Malik-Rozsival were underrated and they're better than Miller-Trouba due to Miller's inexperience but they're light years behind Fox-Lindgren. I don't know why you're bending over backwards to overrate every other team and underrate this team just to defend Quinn.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

And sure if you want to say "not overachieving is not the same as underachieving", maybe that's true. But give me the coach that has his team overachieve. We had that with all of Renney, Torts, and AV. Why should we expect less from Quinn?

 

[Tawnos]

I feel like you're highlighting every possible positive aspect of those teams and downplaying anything positive with this team to make a point. Sure if you dive deeply in Prucha was a good player that year and Rucinsky and Sykora were decent. But they weren't anything special when it came to a second line. KZB or Panarin/Strome/Whomever is better than that second line. Sure Malik-Rozsival were underrated and they're better than Miller-Trouba due to Miller's inexperience but they're light years behind Fox-Lindgren. I don't know why you're bending over backwards to overrate every other team and underrate this team just to defend Quinn.

I don’t know why you’re bending over backwards to diminish the value of experience and defensive acumen just to be critical of Quinn. See? It works both ways.

 

[Tawnos]

And sure if you want to say "not overachieving is not the same as underachieving", maybe that's true. But give me the coach that has his team overachieve. We had that with all of Renney, Torts, and AV. Why should we expect less from Quinn?

Because Quinn is going to have the roster where overachieving is unnecessary. He doesn’t yet, but it’s coming. Too many pieces still need to grow into it. Overachieving now won’t get us there any faster.

 

[CLW]

Like copy/pasted from Merriam-Webster.

Correct analysis is not confirmation bias. If that was true everything would be confirmation bias to some degree or other. Ridiculous proposition.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I don’t know why you’re bending over backwards to diminish the value of experience and defensive acumen just to be critical of Quinn. See? It works both ways.

How bad could a team that's top 10 in goals against with their starting goalie starting half the games be in terms of defensive acumen?

 

[True Blue]

But compare this roster to those, throw in 08-09 as well. It's not even close.

Which roster has the absolute best goalie alive on their team? Which roster has a bunch of kids playing that either could not buy beer legally or just barely old enough to do so?

This roster is fine, just because it doesn't have a bunch of grinders that play better defensively than offensively doesn't mean it's better, just different. This team is 10th in the league in goals against per game despite Shesterkin missing probably close to a quarter of the games and having uneven at best play from their backups

The roster of this team was expected to be a bubble team. And that was factoring in having DeAngelo and Mika playing like he has for the past several years, not to mention the injuries. If someone was to tell you that there would be no DeAngelo, Mika was playing on the level of a fringe player and you had to go through 10 games out of a 56 game season with a third string goalie, the projections would have trended to lottery contention.