Player Discussion David Backes

[GloryDaze4877]

Thank god you mentioned vocal leader because I honestly had no idea which player you were talking about.

Outside of that one line you described Loui Ericsson to a T.

You must be talking about a different Loui Eriksson than I have seen?

As MMB said, the one I know doesn't take draws, and while he is not afraid to go to the dirty areas, I would hardly call him a physical presence, which Backes qualifies as.

I would say that the B's have leaders that prefer to lead by example rather than call guys out. Bergeron, Chara, Krejci all seem like pretty quiet personalities. I think Kelly was a vocal guy, as was Thornton, but they were role players. It's one thing when a 3rd/4th liner says something to you. It's another thing when a guy like Backes is wearing an A and gets in your grill.

I can't picture Loui doing that.

 

[member 96824]

Come on, man. I outlined what I meant pretty clearly. And when physicality is mentioned as a difference between Eriksson and Backes, you know what's being talked about.

Yeah hits...

Hits are physicality but physicality is not hits.

If nothing else, I've always felt Loui brought a strong possession game and physical presence to the Bruins during his tenure here. A different physical presence than Backes will bring, but a physical one nonetheless.

 

[member 96824]

You must be talking about a different Loui Eriksson than I have seen?

As MMB said, the one I know doesn't take draws, and while he is not afraid to go to the dirty areas, I would hardly call him a physical presence, which Backes qualifies as.

I would say that the B's have leaders that prefer to lead by example rather than call guys out. Bergeron, Chara, Krejci all seem like pretty quiet personalities. I think Kelly was a vocal guy, as was Thornton, but they were role players. It's one thing when a 3rd/4th liner says something to you. It's another thing when a guy like Backes is wearing an A and gets in your grill.

I can't picture Loui doing that.

RE: Vocal leadership...I agree and that's something I've been arguing for a couple of years now, back to at least when the Oshie for Loui swap was being talked about the first time around.

But yeah I guess we were either watching a different player or have different definitions of physical if you didn't think Loui was physical. Does Bergeron have a physical presence in a hockey game when he takes the ice? I believe so...do you?

Even if we disagree on the different shades of physicality, we can probably agree that everything else you listed out there as Pro-Backes is a box that Loui Eriksson checked while he was here too..right?

 

[PlayMakers]

RE: Vocal leadership...I agree and that's something I've been arguing for a couple of years now, back to at least when the Oshie for Loui swap was being talked about the first time around.

But yeah I guess we were either watching a different player or have different definitions of physical if you didn't think Loui was physical. Does Bergeron have a physical presence in a hockey game when he takes the ice? I believe so...do you?

Even if we disagree on the different shades of physicality, we can probably agree that everything else you listed out there as Pro-Backes is a box that Loui Eriksson checked while he was here too..right?

Put me down as someone who does not see Eriksson as a physical presence. I don't think he hits, I don't think he muscles people off the puck. I think he's very good with his stick and I think that allows him to win puck battles, which is nice and important, but it doesn't make him a physical presence.

Bergeron hits and can win battles with his body, he brings more of that than Loui did, but I still don't know if he does it enough to be considered a "physical presence." Backes is a physical presence. Johnny Boychuk and Milan Lucic bring a physical presence. PK Subban, Shea Weber, Ryan Kesler, Dustin Byfuglien...

I'd also say that all the things you're talking about getting from Loui, you only got once in the last 4 years. With Backes, you got it every year.

 

[HumBucker]

But yeah I guess we were either watching a different player or have different definitions of physical if you didn't think Loui was physical. Does Bergeron have a physical presence in a hockey game when he takes the ice? I believe so...do you?

I don't think very many people would use the word "physical" to describe Loui's style of play. Almost every player is "physical" to one degree or another. You have to be. But taking punishment while you're parked in front of the net is not the usual definition. It's about using your body aggressively to engage an opposing player, as Playmakers said. Battling for possession, not just hitting. For all his positive attributes, Loui isn't much of a battler - at least not compared to most players.

 

[PacificNWBruin]

Put me down as someone who does not see Eriksson as a physical presence. I don't think he hits, I don't think he muscles people off the puck. I think he's very good with his stick and I think that allows him to win puck battles, which is nice and important, but it doesn't make him a physical presence.

Bergeron hits and can win battles with his body, he brings more of that than Loui did, but I still don't know if he does it enough to be considered a "physical presence." Backes is a physical presence. Johnny Boychuk and Milan Lucic bring a physical presence. PK Subban, Shea Weber, Ryan Kesler, Dustin Byfuglien...

I'd also say that all the things you're talking about getting from Loui, you only got once in the last 4 years. With Backes, you got it every year.

I watched a lot of Blues games the past couple years because of a coworker. David Backes never impressed me with his "physical presence". I find him to a be a better Jimmy Hayes. Big body but doesn't use it THAT well. I get annoyed when people knock Loui for not being physical with laying crushing hits. He brought so many great things to the team while he was here but was overshadowed because of the Seguin trade. He was the most consistent player right behind Bergy, but this team's fan base is completely obsessed with big bodied power forwards. It's asinine. Loui had a better year overall. He did amazing stuff with plays along the board and with holding onto the puck. He had great hands with his deflections and his positioning. But it's cool. Let's pay a 32 year old Backes, 6m a year to possibly anchor our 3RD LINE because he's 6-3 220lbs and kinda hits more. I don't mind Backes on this team. I just question the hype and comparison to Loui. Two different players and styles. I don't think Backes' "physical presence" will really be a game changer. Especially because he's older now. He's not reckless. I just feel like his hustle and character will be more of a factor then his hitting.

 

[member 96824]

Put me down as someone who does not see Eriksson as a physical presence. I don't think he hits, I don't think he muscles people off the puck. I think he's very good with his stick and I think that allows him to win puck battles, which is nice and important, but it doesn't make him a physical presence.

Bergeron hits and can win battles with his body, he brings more of that than Loui did, but I still don't know if he does it enough to be considered a "physical presence." Backes is a physical presence. Johnny Boychuk and Milan Lucic bring a physical presence. PK Subban, Shea Weber, Ryan Kesler, Dustin Byfuglien...

I'd also say that all the things you're talking about getting from Loui, you only got once in the last 4 years. With Backes, you got it every year.

I don't think very many people would use the word "physical" to describe Loui's style of play. Almost every player is "physical" to one degree or another. You have to be. But taking punishment while you're parked in front of the net is not the usual definition. It's about using your body aggressively to engage an opposing player, as Playmakers said. Battling for possession, not just hitting. For all his positive attributes, Loui isn't much of a battler - at least not compared to most players.

Chalk it up to agreeing to disagree I suppose on what our definition of the subjective term "physical presence" is, but I consider the grinding and battling in front of the net just as important as the hits and corner battles when it comes to that. When I think of the positive impact Loui Eriksson had on the Bruins over the last couple of years, almost instantaneously the thought that comes to my mind is Loui getting to the front of the net, staying in front of the net, and scoring in front of the net, and him doing that more consistently than anyone else on the roster. Is part of that hockey sense/IQ? Of course, but another part of that is physical presence and that is something that a team absolutely had to plan around while Loui was on his way last year to racking up 30.

Is he going to be confused with anyone on that list? Of course not..but I also think it's a little simple to think that you have to only play like those players to be considered a physical presence. When I look around the league at guys like Toews, Bergeron, Eriksson, etc. I still players that are using their physical presence as an asset to the team even if it's in a different way. Call it a "One Zone" or "Mark Recchi" Physical Player or whatever haha.

 

[Mpasta]

You must be talking about a different Loui Eriksson than I have seen?

As MMB said, the one I know doesn't take draws, and while he is not afraid to go to the dirty areas, I would hardly call him a physical presence, which Backes qualifies as.

I would say that the B's have leaders that prefer to lead by example rather than call guys out. Bergeron, Chara, Krejci all seem like pretty quiet personalities. I think Kelly was a vocal guy, as was Thornton, but they were role players. It's one thing when a 3rd/4th liner says something to you. It's another thing when a guy like Backes is wearing an A and gets in your grill.

I can't picture Loui doing that.

Loui is an above average 2 way, quiet player who doesn't mind contact from the other team which a lot of players can't say but he isn't the type to dish it out. I agree, he's not a typical "physical player".

I watched a lot of Blues games the past couple years because of a coworker. David Backes never impressed me with his "physical presence". I find him to a be a better Jimmy Hayes. Big body but doesn't use it THAT well. I get annoyed when people knock Loui for not being physical with laying crushing hits. He brought so many great things to the team while he was here but was overshadowed because of the Seguin trade. He was the most consistent player right behind Bergy, but this team's fan base is completely obsessed with big bodied power forwards. It's asinine. Loui had a better year overall. He did amazing stuff with plays along the board and with holding onto the puck. He had great hands with his deflections and his positioning. But it's cool. Let's pay a 32 year old Backes, 6m a year to possibly anchor our 3RD LINE because he's 6-3 220lbs and kinda hits more. I don't mind Backes on this team. I just question the hype and comparison to Loui. Two different players and styles. I don't think Backes' "physical presence" will really be a game changer. Especially because he's older now. He's not reckless. I just feel like his hustle and character will be more of a factor then his hitting.

"Take that back" -Backes if he saw this

 

[PacificNWBruin]

Loui is an above average 2 way, quiet player who doesn't mind contact from the other team which a lot of players can't say but he isn't the type to dish it out. I agree, he's not a typical "physical player".



"Take that back" -Backes if he saw this

I meant that comment to be positive lol. As in he's better then Jimmy overall. No way will I consider Backes soft like I do the gentle giant. I just don't think Backes has that much of a physical presence as other people. I've seen him get pushed around by smaller players. But not as embarrassing as I've seen Hayes get knocked around.

 

[Fossy21]

I don't think very many people would use the word "physical" to describe Loui's style of play. Almost every player is "physical" to one degree or another. You have to be. But taking punishment while you're parked in front of the net is not the usual definition. It's about using your body aggressively to engage an opposing player, as Playmakers said. Battling for possession, not just hitting. For all his positive attributes, Loui isn't much of a battler - at least not compared to most players.

Battling for position in front of the net can be just as punishing over 82 games as (physically) battling for possession. Ask a Holmström. It's something nobody else on the team did successfully consistently (offensively or defensively... A lot of -ly's in a row). It's hurt us a lot defensively in recent years, and I'd say was the key to losing the Montreal series (where Price rarely had to take care of second and third opportunities because his D cleared the net-front). Backes will hopefully carry the torch in that department, though.

Vocal leadership and hits versus an advantage in offence (and, as a counterpoint to the hitting, the famous stick positioning), it's a wash or bare win/loss in the next couple of - three years (depending on your preference). After that probably a slightly bigger loss the next couple of years (Backes is a year older), and then Loui has one more season for Nucks. Ideally I probably wouldn't have done either deal (great players that I really like, exiting their prime, signed on the long term), but if we knew Sweeney's long-term plan I guess I could see this as a better deal. From what we know... Not so sure (not that it's probably much worse either, of course).

 

[GloryDaze4877]

RE: Vocal leadership...I agree and that's something I've been arguing for a couple of years now, back to at least when the Oshie for Loui swap was being talked about the first time around.

But yeah I guess we were either watching a different player or have different definitions of physical if you didn't think Loui was physical. Does Bergeron have a physical presence in a hockey game when he takes the ice? I believe so...do you?

Even if we disagree on the different shades of physicality, we can probably agree that everything else you listed out there as Pro-Backes is a box that Loui Eriksson checked while he was here too..right?

Faceoffs?

It's why guys that can play C are typically valued more than a "wing only" player of similar ability. Last year, Bergeron was the only C over 50.1% (DK). The B's added Backes (52%) and Moore (55%) so I'm assuming it's an area they felt they needed to be better?

Also, as someone alluded to, hockey is a contact sport. There is a certain amount of physical contact required from every player. When I say a "physical" player, I mean one who initiates contact or makes his presence felt physically.

I like Loui, he's good down low, but in a different fashion. He goes to where he needs to in order to be successful, but he's not a "physical" player.

So, I guess I should have said:

Other than being a vocal leader, being able to take FO's (well), and being MORE of a physical presence...Backes adds nothing Loui didn't provide.

 

[DKH]

Boy if you got something against Backes you can throw anything against the wall

We need remer to post a fantasy list not disclose what it is really about and show that Loui is going to be higher on the list and hope the lemmings all think it's overall performance

 

[TheBigBadB]

Boy if you got something against Backes you can throw anything against the wall

We need remer to post a fantasy list not disclose what it is really about and show that Loui is going to be higher on the list and hope the lemmings all think it's overall performance

The question is though, how much better is Backes to Loui, truly. On par, marginally, hugely?

Not to rain on anyone's parade of all things great, but to me it's a marginal upgrade and not enough to consider this move a reason they make the playoffs this season.

 

[member 96824]

Faceoffs?

It's why guys that can play C are typically valued more than a "wing only" player of similar ability. Last year, Bergeron was the only C over 50.1% (DK). The B's added Backes (52%) and Moore (55%) so I'm assuming it's an area they felt they needed to be better?

Also, as someone alluded to, hockey is a contact sport. There is a certain amount of physical contact required from every player. When I say a "physical" player, I mean one who initiates contact or makes his presence felt physically.

I like Loui, he's good down low, but in a different fashion. He goes to where he needs to in order to be successful, but he's not a "physical" player.

So, I guess I should have said:

Other than being a vocal leader, being able to take FO's (well), and being MORE of a physical presence...Backes adds nothing Loui didn't provide.

All points I've already addressed and I don't think anyone wants to read my BS in the first place, let alone watch me repeat.

I'll make my final point regarding Loui and physicality. Yes all players need to be physical and are to different degrees...the difference with Loui is that IS his offensive game now. Someone brought up Holmstrom, that's a pretty solid comparison. If you looked at his goal chart, it wouldn't surprise me to find out at least >60% came from within 5 feet. In that way, Loui's offensive game is entirely designed around his physical presence and because of that, he does an effective job opening up the ice.

Backes doesn't go to the front of the net as often but hits more. I don't necessarily think that one provides more value than the other but at least if you're doing one of those acts it means your team has the puck.

I know that I'm probably not going to change your mind(shocker ) and you're probably not going to change mine(another shocker ), I don't think either of us are going to go back and rewatch the season to look for new things so probably just best to agree to disagree and move on.

 

[bp13]

Chalk it up to agreeing to disagree I suppose on what our definition of the subjective term "physical presence" is, but I consider the grinding and battling in front of the net just as important as the hits and corner battles when it comes to that. When I think of the positive impact Loui Eriksson had on the Bruins over the last couple of years, almost instantaneously the thought that comes to my mind is Loui getting to the front of the net, staying in front of the net, and scoring in front of the net, and him doing that more consistently than anyone else on the roster. Is part of that hockey sense/IQ? Of course, but another part of that is physical presence and that is something that a team absolutely had to plan around while Loui was on his way last year to racking up 30.

Is he going to be confused with anyone on that list? Of course not..but I also think it's a little simple to think that you have to only play like those players to be considered a physical presence. When I look around the league at guys like Toews, Bergeron, Eriksson, etc. I still players that are using their physical presence as an asset to the team even if it's in a different way. Call it a "One Zone" or "Mark Recchi" Physical Player or whatever haha.

I agree with you BofJ. I'd call Loui one of the best boards players in the NHL and one of the best puck possessors in the NHL. I don't see how a player can be at that level without being physical. Now that isn't to say he's intimidating anyone because he's not, but he wins way more than his share of battles for loose pucks. Hard to do that without using your body.

 

[member 96824]

The question is though, how much better is Backes to Loui, truly. On par, marginally, hugely?

Not to rain on anyone's parade of all things great, but to me it's a marginal upgrade and not enough to consider this move a reason they make the playoffs this season.

It depends on what you value as a fan. Are the differences being discussed worth the 18 point differential last year? Is that Loui going to continue or revert back to the mean? What even is the mean for Loui Eriksson today?

Where do you weigh possession stats vs. faceoff wins?

At the end of that day it's all subjective and that's even before factoring in player/team bias.

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

because I know Dan loves it when I do this, here's a hero chart comparing the two:

Unfortunately I couldn't find one with "grit" and "physicality" graphs

I realize there are other factors at play here so I'm not trying to argue that Loui is better, but I do think it's laughable that Sweeney said in the Backes presser that they felt they needed to improve their possession game. Letting Loui walk and replacing him with Backes is not how you improve your possession game.

 

[EverettMike]

Oooof.

 

[Ace0813]

I'm not sure if we had actual observations of his play last night in here, I feel like most of these posts have been a measuring contest between Backes and Eriksson.....

I wasn't able to watch most of FIN vs USA - how did David look out there? I know he's not a premier skilled player, but was he making things happen? I saw a couple bad defensive zone draw losses that didn't look promising.

 

[TheBigBadB]

It depends on what you value as a fan. Are the differences being discussed worth the 18 point differential last year? Is that Loui going to continue or revert back to the mean? What even is the mean for Loui Eriksson today?

Where do you weigh possession stats vs. faceoff wins?

At the end of that day it's all subjective and that's even before factoring in player/team bias.

Everyone will have a different opinion of that. Mostly personal preference. My question at a real high level is subbing Loui with Backes a big step in playoff contention this season or is it kind of a push?

Like if we kept Loui and added Backes wouldn't that be more of a big step to playoffs? Of course, but subbing eh, don't think so.

What will make this season successful or not is going to be all on the kids really. Current ones taking the next step, and will the hopefuls step up and surprise. If these things don't happen its going to be a middle of the pack type year regardless of Loui vs Backes

 

[EverettMike]

Between a long-term deal for Backes or Eriksson the choice is eeeeeeassssy.

Neither.

 

[bp13]

I still think though that the debate between Loui vs. Backes is kind of irrelevant. For starters, it's not necessarily the case that the Bruins were in an either/or position. Personally, I would bet Loui didn't really want to sign long-term here.

But the big issue remains to me the idea of committing long-term to an older guy when you don't have the defense to compete. You're overpaying in the future for NOW when the future looks a lot brighter than now. It just doesn't make any sense. You give a veteran an extra mil or an extra year when you need him to contend now. The Bruins can't contend with this defense. So the Backes signing to me is really a band-aid. A fallback plan to be strong in the middle to hopefully compensate for a crappy D and maybe get a playoff spot. But it's a deal with the devil when you fast forward 3-4 years.

 

[Fossy21]

I'm not sure if we had actual observations of his play last night in here, I feel like most of these posts have been a measuring contest between Backes and Eriksson.....

I wasn't able to watch most of FIN vs USA - how did David look out there? I know he's not a premier skilled player, but was he making things happen? I saw a couple bad defensive zone draw losses that didn't look promising.

I didn't watch any of it, but heard USA dominated the first half, with Rinne keeping it from becoming embarrassing, and then Finland came back into it with a decent push. Which part did you watch? I also recall someone mentioning Bergy doing poorly (at least for him) in the faceoff circle, so I wouldn't be too worried if Backes does the same in these exhibition games (or even the actual tourny), unless he's really bad.

 

[DoubleAAAA]

Between a long-term deal for Backes or Eriksson the choice is eeeeeeassssy.

Neither.

This is the correct answer.


I find it a little bizarre people are comparing the 2 and complaining you can't pay a 32 year old $6M/year for 5 years, but it's ok to pay a 31 year old $6M/year for 6 years?

Don't pay either of them that much for that long.

 

[HiyaGeorgii]

I'm not sure if we had actual observations of his play last night in here, I feel like most of these posts have been a measuring contest between Backes and Eriksson.....

I wasn't able to watch most of FIN vs USA - how did David look out there? I know he's not a premier skilled player, but was he making things happen? I saw a couple bad defensive zone draw losses that didn't look promising.

He was on the 4th line and looked exactly like a 4th liner IMO. I doubt he plays in the tournament. Most of the teams are just too quick for him. He had some hits.