Czech-Slovakia

[Faterson]

4/19 = 21%

Eh again? Since when does a Worlds roster have 19 players? I was counting with 23 (today's number, I think) but it was actually 22 – 2 goalies, 7 defencemen and 13 forwards:

http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistrovství_světa_v_ledním_hokeji_1985#Soupiska_.C4.8Ceskoslovenska

So that's 4/22, or 18%, as opposed to 33% of population. Abysmal! It's not that those numbers should exactly correspond (see my foregoing post), but seeing such continued imbalance over the decades is pretty harsh. For example, Slovan Bratislava was the champion of Czechoslovakia in 1979, but it didn't seem to make any difference, or change the usual trend in any way, in terms of the composition of Czechoslovakia rosters. (Again, let's not mention the three superstar brothers – the Šťastnýs alone certainly wouldn't have been able to win the title for Slovan! And they would have been on the national team roster regardless of Slovan's results.)

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Eh again? Since when does a Worlds roster have 19 players? I was counting with 23 (today's number, I think) but it was actually 22 – 2 goalies, 7 defencemen and 13 forwards:

http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistrovství_světa_v_ledním_hokeji_1985#Soupiska_.C4.8Ceskoslovenska

So that's 4/22, or 18%, as opposed to 33% of population. Abysmal! It's not that those numbers should exactly correspond (see my foregoing post), but seeing such continued imbalance over the decades is pretty harsh. For example, Slovan Bratislava was the champion of Czechoslovakia in 1979, but it didn't seem to make any difference, or change the usual trend in any way, in terms of the composition of Czechoslovakia rosters. (Again, let's not mention the three superstar brothers – the Å ťastnýs alone certainly wouldn't have been able to win the title for Slovan! And they would have been on the national team roster regardless of Slovan's results.)

I was talking about the "starting" 19. One goalie, six defensemen, 12 forwards. 19. Earlier on when talking about the football NT you conveniently disregarded the Slovak reserves. Of course in this case it doesn't suit your narrative.

"Abysmal?" They won the freaking gold medal. Were Czechs crying in '76 that there were too many Slovaks on the team? Please. Obviously the correct players were selected in '85. With a Slovak captain to boot. Sorry we were 15 percentage points below your quota.

Was there a Czech bias in the national team selection process? Perhaps. It should be about selecting the best team, regardless of where a player was from. Whether it's 95% Czechs or 95% Slovaks shouldn't matter. The results speak for themselves. In '76 (football) and '85 (hockey) the correct teams were sent to represent Czechoslovakia. A disproportionate amount of Czechs/Slovaks is irrelevant, in both cases.

 

[Jablkon]

Eh again? Since when does a Worlds roster have 19 players? I was counting with 23 (today's number, I think) but it was actually 22 – 2 goalies, 7 defencemen and 13 forwards:

http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistrovství_světa_v_ledním_hokeji_1985#Soupiska_.C4.8Ceskoslovenska

So that's 4/22, or 18%, as opposed to 33% of population. Abysmal! It's not that those numbers should exactly correspond (see my foregoing post), but seeing such continued imbalance over the decades is pretty harsh. For example, Slovan Bratislava was the champion of Czechoslovakia in 1979, but it didn't seem to make any difference, or change the usual trend in any way, in terms of the composition of Czechoslovakia rosters. (Again, let's not mention the three superstar brothers – the Å ťastnýs alone certainly wouldn't have been able to win the title for Slovan! And they would have been on the national team roster regardless of Slovan's results.)

I would be more than happy for names.this too much hypothetical.I am not saying its not true, but i can not imagine that this should be issue now and I can hardly find the reason why anybody would open this topic.....I thought we all went over these all little grievances in 90s....

 

[Faterson]

I was talking about the "starting" 19. One goalie, six defensemen, 12 forwards. 19.

That's nonsense, and you know it. Please don't mix those apples and oranges so blatantly. You just can't compare football substitute players with the 22-man hockey roster. Each of those 22 is sitting on the bench and may jump into play any minute. None of them is a "healthy scratch". In contrast, when 22 players travel to a football World Cup, many of them are resigned to the fact they won't get to play a single minute on the field, because only 11+3 players can play in a football game. In contrast, seeing 20, 21, or 22 players from a single team in action in a single hockey game is perfectly normal. In fact, back in the 1980s, it would be extremely unusual for Czechoslovakia to play with only 6 defencemen. Many teams used to play with 8 (and many Russian teams in the KHL still do so nowadays), so you can bet that all 7 of those Czech defencemen in 1985 saw regular play.

"Abysmal?" They won the freaking gold medal.

Only in 1985. I'm calling that entire list of Slovak players at the Worlds, as posted earlier in this thread, abysmal and gruesome. Of course, no one is really going to object to a team that won Gold. Practically each of those 22 players from 1985 is considered an icon today. When I looked at that list earlier today, the only two names that struck me as perhaps slightly not familiar were Válek and Radoslav Svoboda.

The results speak for themselves.

Yes: only a single Gold medal in the entire 1980s decade, and several spectacular failures. Take the 1988 Olympic games in Calgary. Czechoslovakia finished 6th (!) behind Germany (!), with Hašek (!) in goal. And once again, there were only 4 Slovaks in the line-up:

https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/LednÃ...ých_hrách_1988#Soupiska_.C4.8Ceskoslovenska

Who knows? Perhaps there would have been a medal with more Slovaks in the line-up? We'll never know.

i can not imagine that this should be issue now

Of course it's not an issue anymore. We're just clarifying, based on the last few decades of joint team Czechoslovakia, what sort of issues and tensions would very likely come up if a joint team were to be created again. (And not for the sake of a joke tournament like the Bettman cup in September 2016, but something prestigious like the Olympics or the World Championships.)

I thought we all went over these all little grievances in 90s....

I'm no longer "aggrieved". This is 2015. Someone like Rusnák might perhaps still be aggrieved today, I don't know. Captain of World Champions team in 1985, and kicked off the national team only 2 years later, aged 27 (and never to return, I think), apparently based on that single failure of a tournament (1986 Worlds). Or a whole battalion of former Slovan Bratislava players, considered legends today, might perhaps still feel aggrieved, because they never got to play for Czechoslovakia at the Worlds: Dornič, Bezák, Jaško, Pokovič, Pukalovič... Ask them whether they're still aggrieved or not – as to me, an ordinary hockey fan, I'm over it by now.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

That's nonsense, and you know it. Please don't mix those apples and oranges so blatantly. You just can't compare football substitute players with the 22-man hockey roster. Each of those 22 is sitting on the bench and may jump into play any minute. None of them is a "healthy scratch". In contrast, when 22 players travel to a football World Cup, many of them are resigned to the fact they won't get to play a single minute on the field, because only 11+3 players can play in a football game. In contrast, seeing 20, 21, or 22 players from a single team in action in a single hockey game is perfectly normal. In fact, back in the 1980s, it would be extremely unusual for Czechoslovakia to play with only 6 defencemen. Many teams used to play with 8 (and many Russian teams in the KHL still do so nowadays), so you can bet that all 7 of those Czech defencemen in 1985 saw regular play.


Only in 1985. I'm calling that entire list of Slovak players at the Worlds, as posted earlier in this thread, abysmal and gruesome. Of course, no one is really going to object to a team that won Gold. Practically each of those 22 players from 1985 is considered an icon today. When I looked at that list earlier today, the only two names that struck me as perhaps slightly not familiar were Válek and Radoslav Svoboda.


Yes: only a single Gold medal in the entire 1980s decade, and several spectacular failures. Take the 1988 Olympic games in Calgary. Czechoslovakia finished 6th (!) behind Germany (!), with Hašek (!) in goal. And once again, there were only 4 Slovaks in the line-up:

https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/LednÃ...ých_hrách_1988#Soupiska_.C4.8Ceskoslovenska

Who knows? Perhaps there would have been a medal with more Slovaks in the line-up? We'll never know.


Of course it's not an issue anymore. We're just clarifying, based on the last few decades of joint team Czechoslovakia, what sort of issues and tensions would very likely come up if a joint team were to be created again. (And not for the sake of a joke tournament like the Bettman cup in September 2016, but something prestigious like the Olympics or the World Championships.)


I'm no longer "aggrieved". This is 2015. Someone like Rusnák might perhaps still be aggrieved today, I don't know. Captain of World Champions team in 1985, and kicked off the national team only 2 years later, aged 27 (and never to return, I think), apparently based on that single failure of a tournament (1986 Worlds). Or a whole battalion of former Slovan Bratislava players, considered legends today, might perhaps still feel aggrieved, because they never got to play for Czechoslovakia at the Worlds: Dornič, Bezák, JaÅ¡ko, Pokovič, Pukalovič... Ask them whether they're still aggrieved or not – as to me, an ordinary hockey fan, I'm over it by now.

Fair enough. Though I'm sure there are a number of Czechs who feel they should've been nominated for NT and weren't.

And you're right, IIHF allows 20 skaters and 2 goalies to dress per game whereas the NHL only allows 18 skaters.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Yes: only a single Gold medal in the entire 1980s decade, and several spectacular failures. Take the 1988 Olympic games in Calgary. Czechoslovakia finished 6th (!) behind Germany (!), with Hašek (!) in goal. And once again, there were only 4 Slovaks in the line-up:


Who knows? Perhaps there would have been a medal with more Slovaks in the line-up? We'll never know.

Well, in a 6 year span after the split, Czech Rep. won 4 golds in the WC and an Olympic gold. Maybe they would have won more in the 80's if they didn't include the Slovak dead weight.

 

[Faterson]

Oh sure. And it only took Slovakia 9 years after gaining independence to win their first gold in 2002, as opposed to Czechoslovakia which needed 29 years until the first gold in 1947. So, without being dominated by Czechs, Slovakia might have won 9+ gold medals by now. It's certainly possible to be facetious about this, but I thought this thread was finished two weeks ago.

 

[Jablkon]

Oh sure. And it only took Slovakia 9 years after gaining independence to win their first gold in 2002, as opposed to Czechoslovakia which needed 29 years until the first gold in 1947. So, without being dominated by Czechs, Slovakia might have won 9+ gold medals by now. It's certainly possible to be facetious about this, but I thought this thread was finished two weeks ago.

Well, if I remember clear you were ony one slovak here who opposed it so whetehr this thread is closed is also up to others. You guys definetely going off topic wit that hassles...