CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor

[awfulwaffle]

How much could a Coyotes' departure cost Arizona? Experts are divided

To quote:

"The Arizona Coyotes have been part of the statewide economy for nearly three decades, so how much of a fiscal hit will Arizona take if the team moved to Utah under a new owner?

Only time and more economic impact analyses can provide a full answer. But the question has reignited an old disagreement between two experts who published disparate economic reports on the NHL franchise's failed plan to build a $2.1 billion arena and entertainment district in Tempe.

On one side is David Wells who co-founded The Grand Canyon Institute, which concluded in its study on the Coyotes-Tempe project that it would “be a net drain, not a net gain" on city coffers.

Dennis Hoffman, the director of Arizona State University’s Seidman Research Center, found that the deal would have been an economic boon for the city in his Coyotes-commissioned analysis.

Their predictions about the team's impact on Arizona's statewide economy are just as different this time around.

Wells believes the Coyotes' departure will have "close to zero" economic effect, because of how consumers behave regarding entertainment spending.

"Most people have a limited leisure budget to start with. So, they'll just reallocate it. You might see an uptick in attendance at ASU basketball games or something like that," said Wells. He added that a "small core of people" in Arizona may now shift some of their spending to Utah to follow the Coyotes.

Hoffman said “we could be losing significant money” because of the cash Canadian retirees have invested in Arizona’s economy. Hoffman said that money could “migrate” out of the state, if snowbirds chose Arizona because of the Coyotes.

“How many Canadian winter visitors have historically chosen to locate in Arizona as opposed to Florida because they can go to NHL games?” Hoffman asked. “It's unknowable. But I think it does a disservice if we just say we'll ignore it because it's unknowable.”

Wells shrugged off that possibility the same way he did the idea of a sizable number of Arizonans shifting their entertainment spending to Utah. He said there might be a "small core" of people who came to Arizona just for the Coyotes, but not enough to be significant."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nhl/coyotes/2024/04/17/how-much-could-a-coyotes-departure-cost-arizona/73343504007/

Gotta love opinion articles. "Someone might go to an ASU basketball game instead".

 

[aqib]

Articles like this are pretty much useless because economists only think in one dimension.

If McDonald’s pulled everyone of their franchises out of the state you could excuse it the same way. People would just get their hamburger, fries and nuggets at a different outlet.

But then you wouldn’t have things like Ronald McDonald Charities spending millions on child health care either.

USA Hockey has rated Arizona as one of the fastest growing regions for amateur hockey for the last few years. All because of the Coyotes.

The girls program sponsored by the Coyotes (Arizona Kachinas) is one of the most successful and the loss of the quarter million dollar sponsorship they get annually will drive the costs of participation to an estimated $2000 per year for each girl.

So the economic impact is real. Just never in a way an economist would understand.

I think economists understand but I think most of them have an agenda and manipulate the fuzzy data to prove the point they want to prove.

For example from 1999-2002 I would fly to Cleveland twice a year for Browns games. Every dollar I spent (hotel, rental car, dinner, etc.) was 100% due to the Browns. Who tracked my spending and those of others who came to town for games?

Once I had a back and forth for the guy who does the Field of Schemes site about income taxes from player salaries. I was basically saying that even if you argue sales taxes on tickets and stadium stuff could be made up by people spending their entertainment dollars elsewhere in the city you can't sub out the player salaries. He said that if people were going out to dinner and movies restaurants and movie theaters would have to hire more people.

So using Minnesota as an example, I calculated the money spent on tickets, then figured out how many dinners that could buy, how many extra waiters would have to be hired for that. the income taxes paid by players, and the income of extra waiters and the taxes they would pay. Basically all the income taxes of all the waiters would amount to the income taxes of a punter. He couldn't dispute my math but said something like "yeah but if you look at income taxes in places that lose teams the impact is zero"

 

[aqib]

Again that’s the problem with viewing things from a myopic 3000 miles away.

The Coyotes at that point in time were unloading a lot of their top players. The economics of playing at AWA (they only received ticket and merchandise sales, and a small percentage of concessions. Richard Burke estimated they could last maybe four more years there given the escalating salaries.

Obviously AWA was going to be unworkable long-term but the declining attendance when the team was still pretty solid should have been an indication that the demand wasn't there for a long-term sustainable franchise.

 

[TheLegend]

I think economists understand but I think most of them have an agenda and manipulate the fuzzy data to prove the point they want to prove.

For example from 1999-2002 I would fly to Cleveland twice a year for Browns games. Every dollar I spent (hotel, rental car, dinner, etc.) was 100% due to the Browns. Who tracked my spending and those of others who came to town for games?

Once I had a back and forth for the guy who does the Field of Schemes site about income taxes from player salaries. I was basically saying that even if you argue sales taxes on tickets and stadium stuff could be made up by people spending their entertainment dollars elsewhere in the city you can't sub out the player salaries. He said that if people were going out to dinner and movies restaurants and movie theaters would have to hire more people.

So using Minnesota as an example, I calculated the money spent on tickets, then figured out how many dinners that could buy, how many extra waiters would have to be hired for that. the income taxes paid by players, and the income of extra waiters and the taxes they would pay. Basically all the income taxes of all the waiters would amount to the income taxes of a punter. He couldn't dispute my math but said something like "yeah but if you look at income taxes in places that lose teams the impact is zero"

You also can’t ignore what’s coming from the outside.

One of the unique things about pro sports teams is their ability to draw in business from outside the market. Those people aren’t going to just go spend it elsewhere in that same market if there’s no reason to go there in the first place.

 

[LadyStanley]

Check out this Podcast: Red Wings season ends in heartbreak, NHL playoff picture is set Red Wings season ends in heartbreak, NHL playoff picture is set

The Athletic podcast. Haven't had a chance to listen. End of pod includes Craig Custance talking about the role Marty Walsh played.

 

[Llama19]

What does losing a pro sports team like the Coyotes mean for the metro Phoenix economy?

To quote:

"JC Bradbury, a professor who specializes in sports economics at Kennesaw State University in Georgia, said the idea that having major sports teams makes a city a major market is backward.

Bradbury said there is “no evidence whatsoever that communities are harmed when teams leave,” when looking at economic activity.

Most spending attributed to professional teams is reallocated local spending, meaning that money would circulate through the local economy anyway, he said. If the team did not exist, those fans would likely still spend their money in the city, like going to the movies or to a restaurant, he said."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/economy/2024/04/17/if-coyotes-move-to-salt-lake-city-how-might-phoenix-area-economy-be-affected/73348233007/

 

[TheLegend]

.What does losing a pro sports team like the Coyotes mean for the metro Phoenix economy?

To quote:

"JC Bradbury, a professor who specializes in sports economics at Kennesaw State University in Georgia, said the idea that having major sports teams makes a city a major market is backward.

Bradbury said there is “no evidence whatsoever that communities are harmed when teams leave,” when looking at economic activity.

Most spending attributed to professional teams is reallocated local spending, meaning that money would circulate through the local economy anyway, he said. If the team did not exist, those fans would likely still spend their money in the city, like going to the movies or to a restaurant, he said."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/economy/2024/04/17/if-coyotes-move-to-salt-lake-city-how-might-phoenix-area-economy-be-affected/73348233007/

JC Bradbury slams public monies used for sports stadiums, but I did a dive into his social media and found out he's a big pro soccer supporter.

The team in Georgia he supports the most plays its home matches out of two separate stadiums...... both were 100% paid for by public finding.

The irony is really something.

 

[mouser]

Can they? I don't know if they really can within the board of governors, but maybe they can. They've negotiated components of an arena with the PA. If the governors decide to further establish minimum standards I wonder what that mechanism looks like if it's not included in a cba. Furthermore, I really can't believe after this fiasco that the PA isn't going to push for some sort of formal definition

The BoG can choose to add arena requirements into the NHL Constitution, or more likely into the NHL ByLaws. The league can pretty much add or change any rules they want without PA consent so long as the rule doesn't affect something already covered by the CBA/collective bargaining, and isn't otherwise illegal.

I believe there already is something collectively bargained about the standards of the arena/facilities. Wasn't there some dispute about inadequate towels or soap or something in Carolina?

The CBA contains minimum requirements for player accommodations at the arena, including the dressing room and some related support infrastructure. There's nothing in the CBA, Constitution or ByLaws covering minimum standards or capacity for fans attending a game.

 

[sneakytitz]

JC Bradbury slams public monies used for sports stadiums, but I did a dive into his social media and found out he's a big pro soccer supporter.

The team in Georgia he supports the most plays its home matches out of two separate stadiums...... both were 100% paid for by public finding.

The irony is really something.

Mercedes Benz Stadium was not 100% paid for by public funding and if I recall correctly, the bonds issued by Atlanta have already been converted to loans, so Atlanta has been repaid.

 

[TheLegend]

Mercedes Benz Stadium was not 100% paid for by public funding and if I recall correctly, the bonds issued by Atlanta have already been converted to loans, so Atlanta has been repaid.

It was still initially funded with public monies.

Something Mr. Bradbury is vehemently against.

 

[sneakytitz]

It was still initially funded with public monies.

Something Mr. Bradbury is vehemently against.

$200 million in construction bonds backed by a hotel/motel tax were contributed to the project. The other $1.4 billion came from Arthur Blank.

Besides, being anti-public funding but a fan of a team that has used public funds in the past isn't hypocritical. I'm anti-assault, do I need to rescind my support of the Braves because a few players have been charged with it in the past?

 

[Shwan]

It was still initially funded with public monies.

Something Mr. Bradbury is vehemently against.

If Barroway still owns his share of the team, does that mean coyotes fans are 5% pro domestic violence?

 

[TheLegend]

$200 million in construction bonds backed by a hotel/motel tax were contributed to the project. The other $1.4 billion came from Arthur Blank.

Besides, being anti-public funding but a fan of a team that has used public funds in the past isn't hypocritical. I'm anti-assault, do I need to rescind my support of the Braves because a few players have been charged with it in the past?

I get the point.. but you’re missing mine in that an advocate for non-public funding of sports arenas (or anything else) would be a rapid supporter of a pro sports team playing in facilities that would NOT be there in the first place without it.

The irony (if not hypocrisy) is astounding.

 

[TheLegend]

If Barroway still owns his share of the team, does that mean coyotes fans are 5% pro domestic violence?

Non-sequitor argument.

 

[TheLegend]

$200 million in construction bonds backed by a hotel/motel tax were contributed to the project. The other $1.4 billion came from Arthur Blank.

Besides, being anti-public funding but a fan of a team that has used public funds in the past isn't hypocritical. I'm anti-assault, do I need to rescind my support of the Braves because a few players have been charged with it in the past?

Wanna guess how many people on this site used to mock Glendale for spending public money building the Coyotes arena but grow silent when you point out their own teams play in public funded arenas?? Including some recently built ones?

Quite a few.

 

[Shwan]

Non-sequitor argument.

You are literally saying because the man supports a team that received public finds he's a hypocrite for having a professional position that public funds are not good for sports teams.

You support a team that was/is partially owned by someone who beat his wife.

 

[sneakytitz]

I get the point.. but you’re missing mine in that an advocate for non-public funding of sports arenas (or anything else) would be a rapid supporter of a pro sports team playing in facilities that would NOT be there in the first place without it.

The irony (if not hypocrisy) is astounding.

I don't see that as a point because you can support something and still remain critical of it whether its sports, technology, government, etc., and that doesn't undermine what your research finds. Nevertheless, the dichotomy you take issue with definitely doesn't undermine his research and findings, which I presume was the point of your original post.

 

[GindyDraws]

Wanna guess how many people on this site used to mock Glendale for spending public money building the Coyotes arena but grow silent when you point out their own teams play in public funded arenas?? Including some recently built ones?

Quite a few.

Sir, I live in a city that writes blank checks to sports teams when they want new stadiums or renovations when it could be used for more important things. Don't give me that crap just because your owner is a scumbag.

 

[KevFu]

I don't see that as a point because you can support something and still remain critical of it whether its sports, technology, government, etc., and that doesn't undermine what your research finds. Nevertheless, the dichotomy you take issue with definitely doesn't undermine his research and findings, which I presume was the point of your original post.

I agree with you. It's NOT hypocritical to be a fan of an organization who does something you fundamentally disagree with. You can still root for an organization and hope they do the right thing. Every organization has done bad things. And it's idiotic to not compartmentalize, you don't have to choose between the Canadian national teams and being opposed to sexual assault, for example.

 

[BMN]

Rooting for Atlanta United doesn't necessarily equate with an argument they're good for the economy. One can be emotionally inconsistent without it ultimately impacting the intellectual consistency of their arguments.

 

[KevFu]

Flawed people do flawed things. We're all just rooting for our shirts.

 

[Reaser]

So never been to SLC either - I'm sure it would be lovely.

But I think there's two things players would be upset about:

2. Market size. Utah is going to be a smaller market. That's going to impact how often your team is on TV,

A guarantee it won't be less than Arizona next year and a practical guarantee it won't be less than Arizona going forward.

The U.S. broadcast partners avoid(ed) Arizona like the plague. For good reason.

Here's the last five regular seasons and how often the Coyotes were on [linear] national broadcasts and the avg viewership # of the games:

2019/20 (1 game)
158k (NBCSN)

2020/21 (1 game)
134k (NBCSN)

2021/22 (3 games)
234k (TNT)
151k (TNT)
142k (TNT)

2022/23 (1 game)
150k (TNT)

2023/24 (0 games)
-

Presuming you're familiar with the NHL on U.S. TV and avg viewership numbers, you'll recognize just how horrible those numbers are: e.g. 2022/23 the least-viewed game in the U.S. was the ONE game the Yotes had.

It's not just the long history of no one watching the Coyotes locally, that also plays into national broadcasts because of the regionalized fanbases in the NHL -- lack of casual fan viewership nationally. Generally the avg viewership for a game is primarily determined by the two markets/fanbases involved, with neutral observers making up the rest. Which with Arizona contributing nothing from their side for all intents and purposes, their nationally broadcast games did horrible numbers.

That's why the U.S. broadcast partners (Disney / TNT Sports) and even previously NBC wanted nothing to do with them.

The problem, is that they (ESPN/TNT) need PTZ/MTZ teams to fill broadcast slots, the 9:30pmET, 10pmET, 10:30pmET broadcasts, and there's only so many teams you can use in those slots. It made scheduling even tougher when you couldn't use, or at least rightfully avoided using one of those markets.

Utah, as "new" will obviously get national games next season. But even five years from now, they'll at-worst get more than the zero Arizona had on linear this current season. Even if Utah does poor viewership #'s nationally, they'd have to purposely try and be as bad as Arizona was in that regard, which is extremely unlikely. At worst, Utah will be usable for late-game time slots a couple times a season. Arizona was essentially unusuable.

 

[PredsHead]

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

So are there any tea leaves on when the actual announcement will take place?

 

[PredsHead]

So are there any tea leaves on when the actual announcement will take place?