CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor

[TheLegend]

So in this scenario, what is considered "infrastructure". Like roads and utilities or actual buildings such as condos/movie theater/etc.?

Roads, water, sewer, electric, and flood drainage since the land currently sits in a designated floodplain.

Meruelo has to pay for all of that too.

 

[gstommylee]

Nyah…. Scottsdale’s mayor is just posturing over the fact a major development will be built just outside his city limits that could draw tax dollars away from his own city.

Typical economic turf war that has been going on for decades here.

And there isn't a darn thing the mayor can do about it either with out risking at the tax payers expense of ending up in the courts and losing and having is own tax payers pay for it.

Heck we aren't even sure if the team will get the land. And like most major projects what gets proposed design looks like isn't what ends up getting build. I can't think of any major development project that didn't have design changes along the way.

 

[aqib]

Nyah…. Scottsdale’s mayor is just posturing over the fact a major development will be built just outside his city limits that could draw tax dollars away from his own city.

Typical economic turf war that has been going on for decades here.

After the Tempe vote failed didn't Scottsdale say they didn't want the Coyotes to go to Scottsdale?

 

[Heavy Dee]

Nyah…. Scottsdale’s mayor is just posturing over the fact a major development will be built just outside his city limits that could draw tax dollars away from his own city.

Typical economic turf war that has been going on for decades here.

He said as much in his release that the development would negatively impact their retail presence in the area.

 

[GKJ]

He can’t stop them from buying the land but he can stop them from using their water and sanitation system. I don’t know the area, and I’m sort of learning this in my real estate course (have to check my notes but keep in mind I’m in PA), but if they can’t get water and sanitation from an existing municipality, they have to get a permit from the county to come up with their own. So the question is where else can they get water and sanitation from? Are they adjacent to any other municipalities? And, yes, that’s going to cost taxpayers. Also, this better not be news to anyone involved with the team or the league. Here is another example of Merulo not having good local connections. Even if it’s not land in their municipality, under no circumstances should there be opposition from the local mayor, because that means others in their circle are opposed too.

 

[gstommylee]

He can’t stop them from buying the land but he can stop them from using their water and sanitation system. I don’t know the area, and I’m sort of learning this in my real estate course (have to check my notes but keep in mind I’m in PA), but if they can’t get water and sanitation from an existing municipality, they have to get a permit from the county to come up with their own. So the question is where else can they get water and sanitation from? Are they adjacent to any other municipalities? And, yes, that’s going to cost taxpayers. Also, this better not be news to anyone involved with the team or the league. Here is another example of Merulo not having good local connections. Even if it’s not land in their municipality, under no circumstances should there be opposition from the local mayor, because that means others in their circle are opposed too.

So whats the point of having state public land auctions if the cities can interfere and prevent anything from being built on the land.

Roads, water, sewer, electric, and flood drainage since the land currently sits in a designated floodplain.

Meruelo has to pay for all of that too.

I wonder if the scottsdale mayor is out of touch of the requirements for the public land purchase through the auction requirements?

 

[TheLegend]

After the Tempe vote failed didn't Scottsdale say they didn't want the Coyotes to go to Scottsdale?

There was a survey and ~71% of the respondents wanted Scottsdale.

 

[TheLegend]

He can’t stop them from buying the land but he can stop them from using their water and sanitation system. I don’t know the area, and I’m sort of learning this in my real estate course (have to check my notes but keep in mind I’m in PA), but if they can’t get water and sanitation from an existing municipality, they have to get a permit from the county to come up with their own. So the question is where else can they get water and sanitation from? Are they adjacent to any other municipalities? And, yes, that’s going to cost taxpayers. Also, this better not be news to anyone involved with the team or the league. Here is another example of Merulo not having good local connections. Even if it’s not land in their municipality, under no circumstances should there be opposition from the local mayor, because that means others in their circle are opposed too.

They set it up where they pull totally from Phoenix.

Scottsdale Road literally belongs to Phoenix. There is nothing west of it. There is already an agreement in place to pull 100% of the water from Phoenix

 

[gstommylee]

They set it up where they pull totally from Phoenix.

Scottsdale Road literally belongs to Phoenix. There is nothing west of it. There is already an agreement in place to pull 100% of the water from Phoenix

https://land.az.gov/sites/default/files/2024-04/53-124365%20City%20of%20Phoenix%20Infrastructure%20Letter.pdf

I believe this says as much.

 

[aqib]

There was a survey and ~71% of the respondents wanted Scottsdale.

I was referring to this: https://www.scottsdale.org/city_new...cle_3fb5ea7c-fcd5-11ed-8a97-3728af667314.html

There is an article on the AZ Republic on May 20, 2023 behind the paywall titled "

Coyotes might want Scottsdale, but Scottsdale doesn't want ..."​

 

[TheLegend]

https://land.az.gov/sites/default/files/2024-04/53-124365%20City%20of%20Phoenix%20Infrastructure%20Letter.pdf

I believe this says as much.

 

[gstommylee]

They set it up where they pull totally from Phoenix.

Scottsdale Road literally belongs to Phoenix. There is nothing west of it. There is already an agreement in place to pull 100% of the water from Phoenix

so what exactly is the mayor whining about if all the utitilies are required to be pulled from phx anyways

wait so scottsland claim the road in in their city limits yet another saying its city of phx road? I'm confused.

 

[TheLegend]

I was referring to this: https://www.scottsdale.org/city_new...cle_3fb5ea7c-fcd5-11ed-8a97-3728af667314.html

There is an article on the AZ Republic on May 20, 2023 behind the paywall titled "

Coyotes might want Scottsdale, but Scottsdale doesn't want ..."​

The second article was the survey’s source.

AFAIK. Other than the current practice facility at the Ice Den they’ve had no interest in Scottsdale anyway

 

[GKJ]

So whats the point of having state public land auctions if the cities can interfere and prevent anything from being built on the land.



I wonder if the scottsdale mayor is out of touch of the requirements for the public land purchase through the auction requirements?

That’s why they say the go with the best plan and not the highest bidder. Not a problem if there’s no other bidders. But there’s still only the rights to the land.

Buccigross also isn’t tweeting it out unless he knows something someone’s thinking, because he loves looking like he’s right.

 

[TheLegend]

wait so scottsland claim the road in in their city limits yet another saying its city of phx road? I'm confused.

Phoenix is hard to understand.

Example…. I live in the city of Tolleson. Mail and every other thing denotes Tolleson. But my community’s streets were put in and maintained by Phoenix.

 

[awfulwaffle]

so what exactly is the mayor whining about if all the utitilies are required to be pulled from phx anyways



wait so scottsland claim the road in in their city limits yet another saying its city of phx road? I'm confused.

If you look at a map with the city boundaries, Snottsdale Road is the dividing line basically. West of Scottsdale Road is Phoenix, and East is Scottsdale. I don't know why the mayor is getting all bent out of shape, but it just sounds like he's going to demand that water and other utilities come from the City of Phoenix. Fair enough, since the entire district is going to be in Phoenix city limits.

What's even more interesting, just right down the freeway is TPC Scottsdale where the Phoenix Open(Waste Management Open) is played. Perhaps he's worried that come tournament time, because of the new venue, some of the events, like the concerts at the bird's nest, could move to this new district.

Could also be a threat, like how City of Phoenix would actually host the NFL Super Bowl experience in downtown phoenix, even though the super bowl is held out in Glendale. It makes sense for the mayor to be against this project because it borders his city, and could very well take some revenue streams from Scottsdale and give them to Phoenix instead.

 

[gstommylee]

That’s why they say the go with the best plan and not the highest bidder. Not a problem if there’s no other bidders. But there’s still only the rights to the land.

Buccigross also isn’t tweeting it out unless he knows something someone’s thinking, because he loves looking like he’s right.

BUt so far everything that the mayor of scottsdale is complaining about is a non issue...

If you look at a map with the city boundaries, Snottsdale Road is the dividing line basically. West of Scottsdale Road is Phoenix, and East is Scottsdale. I don't know why the mayor is getting all bent out of shape, but it just sounds like he's going to demand that water and other utilities come from the City of Phoenix. Fair enough, since the entire district is going to be in Phoenix city limits.

What's even more interesting, just right down the freeway is TPC Scottsdale where the Phoenix Open(Waste Management Open) is played. Perhaps he's worried that come tournament time, because of the new venue, some of the events, like the concerts at the bird's nest, could move to this new district.

Could also be a threat, like how City of Phoenix would actually host the NFL Super Bowl experience in downtown phoenix, even though the super bowl is held out in Glendale. It makes sense for the mayor to be against this project because it borders his city, and could very well take some revenue streams from Scottsdale and give them to Phoenix instead.

He can't legally interfere with who the state auctions their public land to if its land is within another cities boundaries. The only concern which again is non issue is where will the utilities be hooked up too. If its all required to connect to phx ulitites then what's the mayors issue.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Well...there has to be a tie-in for all of the infrastructure, I would think, that would require Scottsdale's approval for said tie-in. The planning, bidding for construction, and actual construction will run pretty tight to the 36-month deadline and if Scottsdale is uncooperative in allowing a tie-in to its infrastructure, that will make things quite difficult.

If I remember correctly, all tie in's were from Phoenix.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

They set it up where they pull totally from Phoenix.

Scottsdale Road literally belongs to Phoenix. There is nothing west of it. There is already an agreement in place to pull 100% of the water from Phoenix

iirc the water was coming from Phoenix from two seperate locations, but it appears to me that Scottsdale Rd. is Scottsdale's and part of the Mayor's beef is it would be on them to improve it. However, I think Phoenix / Mereullo would need to widen it at the west end.... don't know how road sharing would work though. Anyway, something would definitely need to be done, as you come off the 101 from the west and head north it's a slight cluster already, with lane narrowing.

https://land.az.gov/sites/default/files/2024-04/53-124365%20City%20of%20Phoenix%20Infrastructure%20Letter.pdf

I believe this says as much.

Last paragraph, pg. 3.... OUCH

 

[CraigBillington]

Instructions unclear: accidentally built arena in Phoenix, Oregon.

With the permits coming out of Phoenix, BC

 

[gstommylee]

iirc the water was coming from Phoenix from two seperate locations, but it appears to me that Scottsdale Rd. is Scottsdale's and part of the Mayor's beef is it would be on them to improve it. However, I think Phoenix / Mereullo would need to widen it at the west end.... don't know how road sharing would work though. Anyway, something would definitely need to be done, as you come off the 101 from the west and head north it's a slight cluster already, with lane narrowing.


Last paragraph, pg. 3.... OUCH

That's probably standard stuff environmental review stuff that a traffic study has to happen on nearby roads including construction that will impact traffic and how that's mitigated.

If people think scottdale will just stop the arena from happening by not signing off on the TIA. There probably will be lawsuits against Scottsdale by the city of phx and the team.

 

[LPHabsFan]

That's probably standard stuff environmental review stuff that a traffic study has to happen on nearby roads including construction that will impact traffic and how that's mitigated.

If people think scottdale will just stop the arena from happening by not signing off on the TIA. There probably will be lawsuits against Scottsdale by the city of phx and the team.

Under what premise would they sue? Oh Mr. Judge, they're being mean and not agreeing to what we're demanding even though they have every legal right to do what they want on their land.

What I will say is that right now, this whole situation is even more unstable than it has ever been in the past. Like always in this saga, people on both sides are gripping on to the smallest piece of information and using it as a certainty that THIS, and only THIS will be the determining factor that defines the future of the team.

The land sale is a small step. If they reach that stage, they'll buy it without much hooplah. But maybe this is a smaller crack that has the potential to be bigger. The plans right now may call for nothing being required of Scottsdale but that may not stay the same. We've seen in the past how neighbouring towns/cities/states whatever can impact project across lines. Regardless, one public comment about not supporting something may lead to another, which may lead to another and so on.

The NHL has a deadline for moving the team this year as they have not confirmed that the team is staying next year. Only way it happens is if there is either subtle, or obvious, indication that the plan may not succeed beyond the sale of the land.

We just don't know what's happening behind closed doors with regards to how this project will ultimately be done to know whether or not this has any teeth.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

That's probably standard stuff environmental review stuff that a traffic study has to happen on nearby roads including construction that will impact traffic and how that's mitigated.

If people think scottdale will just stop the arena from happening by not signing off on the TIA. There probably will be lawsuits against Scottsdale by the city of phx and the team.

Which won't help the process.... my point.

Under what premise would they sue? Oh Mr. Judge, they're being mean and not agreeing to what we're demanding even though they have every legal right to do what they want on their land.

What I will say is that right now, this whole situation is even more unstable than it has ever been in the past. Like always in this saga, people on both sides are gripping on to the smallest piece of information and using it as a certainty that THIS, and only THIS will be the determining factor that defines the future of the team.

The land sale is a small step. If they reach that stage, they'll buy it without much hooplah. But maybe this is a smaller crack that has the potential to be bigger. The plans right now may call for nothing being required of Scottsdale but that may not stay the same. We've seen in the past how neighbouring towns/cities/states whatever can impact project across lines. Regardless, one public comment about not supporting something may lead to another, which may lead to another and so on.

The NHL has a deadline for moving the team this year as they have not confirmed that the team is staying next year. Only way it happens is if there is either subtle, or obvious, indication that the plan may not succeed beyond the sale of the land.

We just don't know what's happening behind closed doors with regards to how this project will ultimately be done to know whether or not this has any teeth.

This is what concerned me reading through the material, plenty of loose ends.

 

[Ernie]

Why is Phoenix going along with this? All the Coyotes posters told me that Phoenix's #1 reason for opposing the Tempe arena was that they didn't want any competition for Footprint Center, but now they are going pave the way for this arena? Makes zero sense.

 

[Llama19]

Scottsdale mayor opposes Arizona Coyotes arena plan for northeast Phoenix

To quote:

"Scottsdale Mayor David Ortega is opposing the Arizona Coyotes’ potential new arena in northeast Phoenix near his city's border.

In a written statement, Ortega said the renderings and plan released by the Coyotes last week were “presented without mention of market demand for a new entertainment venue disguised as a hockey arena, or congested highway access, or questionable arena zoning entitlement.”

“The prospect of a rookie developer attempting to buy Arizona State Trust Land with absolutely no infrastructure on the Phoenix side of the 101/Scottsdale Road intersection at the doorstep of Scottsdale is not feasible, or welcome,” Ortega wrote."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nhl/coyotes/2024/04/08/scottsdale-mayor-opposes-potential-arizona-coyotes-arena-in-phoenix/73254283007/