CXLVIII - Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo had 'productive' meeting with Phoenix mayor

[aqib]

Oh there's more than enough land to go around. I'm sure someone could come up with that kind of plan.

But it would never survive getting through the legislative red tape and all of the political nonsense.

Sugarland has a dual ice rink (one of the only rink facilities in the city), is outside of Harris County, and has ample land. But I don't think Fort Bend Co. would risk pissing off Harris Co. by building something like that so close. I don't think Fort Bend could even help out financially anyway, they're not particularly wealthy either.

The Woodlands is the only other area outside of Harris that could maybe work, but again, they've already got a large concert venue. I doubt they have the appetite for something else.

Harris county is massive. It eats up most of the rest of Houston. There are three highway loops around the city, and the inner two are completely within Harris. I can't see an arena having any success outside of the middle loop. It'd just be too inaccessible and out of the way.

Theoretically? Sure. But you can say that about any number of cities. Especially Phoenix.

Well the difference would be in Phoenix it would be the third arena whereas in Houston its #2.

 

[Major4Boarding]

At the current moment..... Everywhere.

Even if Merulo came out himself and apologized to the fans, offered a feasible story that the NHL didn't give him much choice..... goes and wins the auction and builds the arena, people are not going to buy in.

You know, it's been bouncing around in my head the last 3 weeks that ... what if Meruelo becomes Ellman 2.0(?). Then that thought triggered the memory bank and rekindled this piece of Ellman Companies timeline.

Hoping that wouldn't be the outcome (fate) but wondering if AM just became the land/development/infrastructure owner and someone else took over the ownership reins.

Now this is (seemingly somewhat) happening.

 

[LT]

Well the difference would be in Phoenix it would be the third arena whereas in Houston its #2.

That's why I keep mentioning the CW Pavilion. It functions like an arena (it fits 16.5K), it's just mostly only home to concerts.

Houston doesn't need another concert or sports venue. Between the NRG complex, Toyota Center, and the Pavilion, there's plenty of event space already.

 

[KevFu]

Someone posted the Rockets lease agreement a while back. I remember it saying that the Rockets couldn't prevent an NHL team from moving into the arena (they would only get game day revenues) but the country couldn't financially support another one. I don't remember them saying that they couldn't allow someone building one on their own. That's why the discussion on Woodlands came up. So if AM decided to build something in Katy, Texas (I just picked that because its the only suburb of Houston I can name off the top of my head since I've been there) there didn't seem to be anything to stop him.

Two things.

#1 - the Rockets "couldn't prevent an NHL Team from moving into the arena" is the absolutely wrong way to phrase it. The Rockets "can't stop it," but an arena that's in the control of someone else is a non-starter for the hypothetical NHL owner. That's literally the reason the Thrashers left Atlanta.

#2 - the full doc is online (well, kinda... Section 20 is "intentionally omitted"), and the non-compete says that the Harris County - Houston Sports Authority "shall not, directly or indirectly, finance, subsidize, provide any incentives for or otherwise assist" a competing venue.

What I mean by "can't allow" is that you need permits, approvals, paperwork and lawyer garbage to build anything, right? Your building has to be approved by SOME, possibly MANY departments of a city to get done.

The HCHSA is a government agency for the sole purpose of the sports venues, so it stands to reason that if you legally need their approval to build a privately-funded sports venue, they can't give it because that's an "otherwise assist" forbidden by Fertitta's lease.

I'm saying that's 100% the reality. But all the convo about the possibility of NHL in Houston has always acted like that's the case.

 

[MaskedSonja]

Obviously Ive got some reading to do-but can someone give me info on something: what does SLC get in return for taking a current team while Yotes would (essentially) get a do over with expansion in 4 (or however many years)? Is SLC wanting a team that much that they would rather have "bird in hand vs 2 in the bush" type thing? (I also get that Yotes could be harmed if youre telling fanbase that youd be taking 3-4 years off, do you get those fans back assuming everything goes smoothly when they "open up" again.

 

[eojsmada]

Obviously Ive got some reading to do-but can someone give me info on something: what does SLC get in return for taking a current team while Yotes would (essentially) get a do over with expansion in 4 (or however many years)? Is SLC wanting a team that much that they would rather have "bird in hand vs 2 in the bush" type thing? (I also get that Yotes could be harmed if youre telling fanbase that youd be taking 3-4 years off, do you get those fans back assuming everything goes smoothly when they "open up" again.

SLC was wanting an expansion team, but it's believed they were asked by Bettman to consider being a relocation spot. What they get, instantly, is a full franchise of players, to include an AHL roster and any draft picks acquired via trades. Plus they would not be beholden to the minimum salary requirement of an expansion team, so its possible they could "bottom out" the salary a bit if they wanted to save some money in the first couple of years.

 

[KevFu]

Obviously Ive got some reading to do-but can someone give me info on something: what does SLC get in return for taking a current team while Yotes would (essentially) get a do over with expansion in 4 (or however many years)? Is SLC wanting a team that much that they would rather have "bird in hand vs 2 in the bush" type thing? (I also get that Yotes could be harmed if youre telling fanbase that youd be taking 3-4 years off, do you get those fans back assuming everything goes smoothly when they "open up" again.

At least a $400m discount over the cost of an expansion team.

 

[MNNumbers]

Can someone give a link to Seravalli's public comments about The Coyotes not paying for hotels on the road? I'd love to see it first hand for myself.

Thanks.

 

[StreetHawk]

SLC was wanting an expansion team, but it's believed they were asked by Bettman to consider being a relocation spot. What they get, instantly, is a full franchise of players, to include an AHL roster and any draft picks acquired via trades. Plus they would not be beholden to the minimum salary requirement of an expansion team, so its possible they could "bottom out" the salary a bit if they wanted to save some money in the first couple of years.

AZ sold a lot of assets and have a boatload of draft capital. Up to the team to decide how they wish to use those assets. Draft and develop or use as trade bait.

 

[MaskedSonja]

SLC was wanting an expansion team, but it's believed they were asked by Bettman to consider being a relocation spot. What they get, instantly, is a full franchise of players, to include an AHL roster and any draft picks acquired via trades. Plus they would not be beholden to the minimum salary requirement of an expansion team, so its possible they could "bottom out" the salary a bit if they wanted to save some money in the first couple of years.

Yes thinking about it having the whole thing set and ready to go, ready to play-the minimum salary requirement is an aspect I hadn't considered

At least a $400m discount over the cost of an expansion team.

I missed that part but that makes sense

 

[Primary Assist]

Sixty eight threads later, this feels so anticlimactic somehow. If a move it is, how about we make it someplace more exotic, like Saskatoon? Does the ghost of Bill Hunter have any money?

Yes. Despite popular sentiment, it turns out you can take it with you when you go

 

[eojsmada]

Interesting that Seravalli is saying that the NHL is going to buy back the Coyotes from Meruelo and then sell it to SLC for a higher amount and the difference will be the relocation fee.

x.com

twitter.com

 

[GKJ]

Interesting that Seravalli is saying that the NHL is going to buy back the Coyotes from Meruelo and then sell it to SLC for a higher amount and the difference will be the relocation fee.

x.com

twitter.com

Just so they get the extra money instead of Meruelo, who is an idiot, and is going to get right of first refusal in the market.

 

[joestevens29]

I am not a Coyotes fan but I want to say first and foremost that I am sorry for all Coyotes fans. You guys and girls have my deepest sympathies. And anyone who is cheering your relocation is a grade A ****face and should check themselves.


That being said, after the devastating news yesterday I slept on it and wanted to really think about who is to blame for this 28 year experiment ending in failure.


I think Alex Meurelo has been lying to you guys since the Tempe vote failure. Quietly, behind the scenes, the Tempe vote was the last chance for this franchise. And when that failed I think the NHL had given up and started courting various groups for an Expansion/Relocation franchise.


It makes sense. The NHL wouldn't want a lame duck season in Phoenix, that could get really ugly. Likewise they also didn't want to rip them away after the season ended because then Coyotes fans wouldn't get the chance to say goodbye. All in all, it seems like making the announcement now seems like the least traumatic option as an outsider.


So what the NHL and AM do instead was lie to you for 78 games. Relocation has been plan A since Tempe failed all along. And I honestly don't blame them for doing so. You have owners with arenas that are relatively turn-key in Houston and SLC. Alex Smith had his **** together first so he got the team. IIRC the Toyota Center just got an ice plant not too long ago so I feel like they were scrambling to get ready for a team too.


The NHL wants Arizona. They still do. Honestly I think they did fairly right by the market by sticking it out for so long when everything indicated it was going south from the very beginning. I don't blame them for cutting bait now because of bad optics.


To me, the blame should be split three ways between Alex Meurelo, the NHL, and the residents of Tempe. AM has been a cheap bastard from the very beginning and did nothing but tarnish an already tarnished brand by getting kicked out of Glendale, not paying taxes, not paying employees, running a bare bones team, etc.


Which makes it all the more suspect that he all of a sudden promised to drop ~$3billion on this district. Drop $100 million on infrastructure. No Billionaire has EVER done that. They always get the city to pitch in for utilities and roads. It was always a pie in the sky scenario to expect this guy who has been such a meiser to suddenly make a face turn and spend all that coin. Especially when SLC just gifted Smith 900 million for a building. NHL Ownership doesn't want to make a habit out of paying their own way. THATS the biggest reason why the NHL cut ties.


There wasn't enough civic support in any municipality of the greater Phoenix area to bring this across the finish line. Glendale locked them out. Isbia didn't want to let them into his barn. Scottsdale's mayor didn't want the auction and subsequent development to happen. And Tempe residents literally voted to have a landfill instead of a hockey team. That's a failure of Meurelo to generate enough support for the Yotes, but that's also an indictment on the market and it's political leadership. Not enough people cared, and not enough of the right people cared.


The NHL failed the Yotes. Meurelo failed the Yotes. And Phoenix failed the Yotes. I hope they can get their full market reset and have a new arena and a new team in about 5 years. But I think this plan for AM to build it isn't gonna happen. Arizona doesn't need another full size arena when they already have two and a half. AM and the NHL can make all the vapid promises they want, but I don't think either party really believes that the vision is going to come to fruition. In all likelihood, AM takes his payday and either loses his land bid or wins it and builds just the profitable part (condos and mixed businesses)

No one should be blaming the NHL. They've kept this team in a market that hasn't been working for a very very long time. I don't think there is any other professional sports team that has been given this many chances.

 

[aqib]

Two things.

#1 - the Rockets "couldn't prevent an NHL Team from moving into the arena" is the absolutely wrong way to phrase it. The Rockets "can't stop it," but an arena that's in the control of someone else is a non-starter for the hypothetical NHL owner. That's literally the reason the Thrashers left Atlanta.

#2 - the full doc is online (well, kinda... Section 20 is "intentionally omitted"), and the non-compete says that the Harris County - Houston Sports Authority "shall not, directly or indirectly, finance, subsidize, provide any incentives for or otherwise assist" a competing venue.

What I mean by "can't allow" is that you need permits, approvals, paperwork and lawyer garbage to build anything, right? Your building has to be approved by SOME, possibly MANY departments of a city to get done.

The HCHSA is a government agency for the sole purpose of the sports venues, so it stands to reason that if you legally need their approval to build a privately-funded sports venue, they can't give it because that's an "otherwise assist" forbidden by Fertitta's lease.

I'm saying that's 100% the reality. But all the convo about the possibility of NHL in Houston has always acted like that's the case.

Honestly we would have to really know the local laws to know who the jas over site over permits. It's cities then a suburban muni in theory could approve a permit and the county has no say.

Again just thinking out loud since he was supposedly planning to foot the bill for everything to then why not look at other places.

 

[Ernie]

No one should be blaming the NHL. They've kept this team in a market that hasn't been working for a very very long time. I don't think there is any other professional sports team that has been given this many chances.

They should absolutely blame the NHL. While they did keep the team in the market, their oversight of this franchise has been abysmal. The parade of owners they've installed has been an absolute clown show. And Bettman was incredibly vindictive towards Glendale, which ultimately cost the team its home and has resulted in this move.

Phoenix is a perfectly fine NHL market. This entire circus act should not have happened. Bettman is the one constant in all the dysfunction.

 

[joestevens29]

They should absolutely blame the NHL. While they did keep the team in the market, their oversight of this franchise has been abysmal. The parade of owners they've installed has been an absolute clown show. And Bettman was incredibly vindictive towards Glendale, which ultimately cost the team its home and has resulted in this move.

Phoenix is a perfectly fine NHL market. This entire circus act should not have happened. Bettman is the one constant in all the dysfunction.

I mean how many other owners that were better were willing to buy in? Seems like every time there was a new owner the narrative was "now we have stability and the Yotes will flourish".

 

[jkrdevil]

Interesting that Seravalli is saying that the NHL is going to buy back the Coyotes from Meruelo and then sell it to SLC for a higher amount and the difference will be the relocation fee.

x.com

twitter.com

I think that is pretty standard for these situations post-Coyotes bankruptcy that established basically that an owner rights are only for the market they are in and can’t sell a team in another market. I believe the Thrashers sale to Winnipeg worked similarly.

The relocation fee basically makes up the value for the expansion fee in the new market. It’s the difference between existing market and expansion fee for new market (as a relocating team is often distressed and would have in theory a lower value than a brand new team).

 

[LadyStanley]

 

[sneakytitz]

Obviously Ive got some reading to do-but can someone give me info on something: what does SLC get in return for taking a current team while Yotes would (essentially) get a do over with expansion in 4 (or however many years)?

For one, the current prospect pool in the Coyotes organization is either top 10 or slightly outside of top 10, depending on who you ask, and they've got a core on the up and up at the NHL level.

In other words, Smith doesn't have to worry about juggling all the rest of the stuff pre-draft AND make/break the team with one draft so he doesn't need an expansion draft to make this a viable contender shortly down the road. The elements are in place and they must be fostered and cultivated but he's inheriting a good situation that can become a great situation with the right guiding hand.

If there was a team to buy for future growth (WITH THE RIGHT PERSONNEL), the Coyotes are one of the best.

 

[Ernie]

For one, the current prospect pool in the Coyotes organization is either top 10 or slightly outside of top 10, depending on who you ask, and they've got a core on the up and up at the NHL level.

In other words, Smith doesn't have to worry about juggling all the rest of the stuff pre-draft AND make/break the team with one draft so he doesn't need an expansion draft to make this a viable contender shortly down the road. The elements are in place and they must be fostered and cultivated but he's inheriting a good situation that can become a great situation with the right guiding hand.

If there was a team to buy for future growth (WITH THE RIGHT PERSONNEL), the Coyotes are one of the best.

He also has $40m of cap space to play with. The Coyotes aren't good but they are a -21 goal differential team, not a -137 basement team like the Sharks. The Coyotes can be a competitive team right away.

 

[LPHabsFan]

Interesting that Seravalli is saying that the NHL is going to buy back the Coyotes from Meruelo and then sell it to SLC for a higher amount and the difference will be the relocation fee.

x.com

twitter.com

It's because Muruelo doesn't actually own the franchise but this way they can at least continue the prop up of nhl franchise values.

 

[TheLegend]

You know, it's been bouncing around in my head the last 3 weeks that ... what if Meruelo becomes Ellman 2.0(?). Then that thought triggered the memory bank and rekindled this piece of Ellman Companies timeline.

Hoping that wouldn't be the outcome (fate) but wondering if AM just became the land/development/infrastructure owner and someone else took over the ownership reins.

Now this is (seemingly somewhat) happening.

My understanding is this NE Phoenix project he wants to build involves multiple investors.

Still also hearing hints that Bettman is still willing to wait out the auction. And that all the relocation talk yesterday is being overblown and stems from someone leaking out a memo on the progress of what is a genuine contingency plan should that auction fail.

As of right now here’s what I see….

1) There is a contingency plan to move the Coyotes. And several well placed hockey media types are saying it’s not 100% in place. Could it be ready in a week? Only the lawyers would know and they aren’t talking. I think if next week goes by and there’s nothing announced by the 18th (day after the season ends) they’ll sit it out through the auction. Everything would be in place by then for a quick move.

2) The next round expansion price is $1.3 billion. That’s what the SLC is going to pay whether it’s the Coyotes or the expansion. Not going to matter who Smith pays, it’s the set price.

3) You should expect Atlanta will get to pay that same price if they’re coming in at near the same time.

 

[sneakytitz]

He also has $40m of cap space to play with. The Coyotes aren't good but they are a -21 goal differential team, not a -137 basement team like the Sharks. The Coyotes can be a competitive team right away.

Bingo! If I was a billionaire right now (I am not) and wanted to buy an NHL team (I do), the Coyotes would be on my shortlist simply because of the possibilities. Smith may simply want anything, or maybe he recognizes what he's buying. Who knows, but SLC hockey can be a contender reallllllly soon with the right stewards.

 

[Ernie]

My understanding is this NE Phoenix project he wants to build involves multiple investors.

Still also hearing hints that Bettman is still willing to wait out the auction. And that all the relocation talk yesterday is being overblown and stems from someone leaking out a memo on the progress of what is a genuine contingency plan should that auction fail.

Lol, in denial until the end.