CXLVI - Future of Coyotes up in air after Tempe rejects arena deal - will remain at Mullet Arena for 2023-24, looking at Fiesta Mall site in Mesa

[Fenway]

Voters reject proposal for Coyotes arena in Tempe

Election results show more voters said "NO" to the propositions that would have allowed developers to build a new arena for the Arizona Coyotes.

www.12news.com

TEMPE, Ariz. — Voters appeared to have rejected the three propositions that would have allowed developers to construct the $2.3 billion Tempe Entertainment District, election results show.

By a 56-44 split, the initial results for Tempe's special election show more voters chose to say "NO" to let developers build a massive complex that includes a new sports arena for the Arizona Coyotes.

Tuesday's first drop of ballot results dealt a devastating blow to an NHL team that had hoped to find a new permanent home in the East Valley.

Coyotes President and CEO Xavier A. Gutierrez said Tuesday night he was disappointed by the election results and that the team's future will be evaluated in the coming weeks by owners and the NHL.

Click to read more...

 

[jigglysquishy]

Heart says QC.
Bettman wants Houston
Wild card is SLC.

 

[Mike Jones]

I wonder if that Utah story was used simply to force Calgary City Council and the Province of Alberta to sign that hideous arena deal with the Flames.

"Sign this POS or we go to Utah".

It would be interesting to see if this guy really wants to move Arizona to Salt Lake City.

 

[WaveRaven]

As someone who has read every post of this mega thread the saga I thought may never end may actually end.

Is there a viable plan B. We should find out soon.

Be sure of this the NHL has a plan ready and in place for relocation if needed.

Don't write off QC. Sweet expansion cash could be available in the west balancing the conferences which they already seem to want to do.

 

[GindyDraws]

Can we finally talk about relocation please please please please please please???

 

[patnyrnyg]

GKJ brought it up in the last thread.:

One of the problems of the market is that it’s so many cities and municipalities that there’s probably enough fans but not enough in any one of them. That East Valley is supposed to be ‘where the fans are.’ Similar to Atlanta, the arena being where it was actually cut off their core base.

One thing I have always wondered is why municipalities can't work together. Why can't Tempe and Phoenix (or whatever Counties and Townships are involved) work out a deal to split the cost but also split the revenue that would be generated?

 

[Slashers98]

As someone who has read every post of this mega thread the saga I thought may never end may actually end.

Is there a viable plan B. We should find out soon.

Be sure of this the NHL has a plan ready and in place for relocation if needed.

Don't write off QC. Sweet expansion cash could be available in the west balancing the conferences which they already seem to want to do.

Forget about expansion. The league has already 32 teams and that's too many.

 

[aqib]

The thing is in special elections like this you get the most active and plugged in voters. When you do it in November with a whole bunch of things on the ballot you get people who are their to vote for other things and this is an afterthought. Just because someone disagreed with you doesn't mean they "didn't get it", watching the news reports, some people simply didn't want an arena and high end housing in their neighborhood. Others had doubts about Meruelo. Maybe it would have made sense for him to show up instead of outsourcing everything to the team president. I mean how do you expect people to trust you as a partner when you don't even show up. I know people will have some excuses for it, but its flat out stupid when the opposition is calling you corrupt and shady and you don't even show up.

No we aren't taking that many of you.

Your indirectly folks in that equation don't get to vote. People in Mesa and Gilbert don't even get votes.

Secondly, everything else you wrote is also exactly the problem: FIND OUT. If you don't know what's going on in a proposition(s), don't vote. If you're going to see a commercial that's propaganda** and get fired up enough to get off your couch to go vote, actually find out what loopholes there are!

If you don't understand that "a tax abatement" isn't money out of your paycheck every month, that the CFD is basically voluntary, don't go vote.

THAT'S what drives me nuts. It's the ignorance of people falling for propaganda** (which, for those of you in Canada who are unaware; the USA legalized propaganda back in the 80s. It's why we're a cesspool of a society now and why one of my Realignment Plans was for about 23 states to join Canada if you'd have us).

People are reducing complex legalese down to one simple thing, but it's the totally wrong thing. They're seeing a price tag for a project and a tax abatement and assume THAT'S how much money they're losing.

The real simplistic reduction is "These guys want to build a thing, when we haven't built a thing; and probably WON'T build a thing EVER because WE CAN'T AFFORD TO BUILD THINGS, but THEY CAN."

I'm most likely projecting my 20+ years of Islanders arena frustration to my new hockey neighbor, but you have people voting to KEEP A PARKING LOT or KEEP A DUMP instead of BUILDING SOMETHING simply because they don't understand that's really what the option is.

Fortunately, it was a happy ending for my Islanders, but I feel really bad for other places I've lived closer to: Oakland, and now Tempe.

 

[Fenway]

​

 

[PredsHead]

So unless I am missing something there would be six likely candidates for relocation if that is the route we are headed down:

1. Houston - Everything would already be in place and the Rockets owner has previously expressed interest, but he balked at the price.

2. Salt Lake City - Everything would already be in place and the Jazz owner has recently expressed interest, but there are questions about the market supporting both NHL and NBA teams

3. Sacramento - Everything would already be in place and the Kings owner has recently expressed interest, but there are questions about the market supporting both NHL and NBA teams. Also have to worry about poaching some fans from the San Jose market as they are relatively close.

4. Kansas City - Have an arena but no one has made any real effort to be an NHL owner in that market

5. Atlanta - Would need both an ownership group and an arena plan, but there has been some recent rumors that there are willing owners with an arena plan waiting on the opportunity. Would likely have to play in an ECHL arena in Duluth until a new arena could be built.

6. Quebec City - Have both an arena and a willing owner, but questions about the market long-term viability. Expressed interest in expansion but balked at the price.

 

[nucksflailtogether]

So unless I am missing something there would be six likely candidates for relocation if that is the route we are headed down:

1. Houston - Everything would already be in place and the Rockets owner has previously expressed interest, but he balked at the price.

2. Salt Lake City - Everything would already be in place and the Jazz owner has recently expressed interest, but there are questions about the market supporting both NHL and NBA teams

3. Sacramento - Everything would already be in place and the Kings owner has recently expressed interest, but there are questions about the market supporting both NHL and NBA teams. Also have to worry about poaching some fans from the San Jose market as they are relatively close.

4. Kansas City - Have an arena but no one has made any real effort to be an NHL owner in that market

5. Atlanta - Would need both an ownership group and an arena plan, but there has been some recent rumors that there are willing owners with an arena plan waiting on the opportunity. Would likely have to play in an ECHL arena in Duluth until a new arena could be built.

6. Quebec City - Have both an arena and a willing owner, but questions about the market long-term viability. Expressed interest in expansion but balked at the price.

Austin or Portland?

 

[Slashers98]

So unless I am missing something there would be six likely candidates for relocation if that is the route we are headed down:

1. Houston - Everything would already be in place and the Rockets owner has previously expressed interest, but he balked at the price.

2. Salt Lake City - Everything would already be in place and the Jazz owner has recently expressed interest, but there are questions about the market supporting both NHL and NBA teams

3. Sacramento - Everything would already be in place and the Kings owner has recently expressed interest, but there are questions about the market supporting both NHL and NBA teams. Also have to worry about poaching some fans from the San Jose market as they are relatively close.

4. Kansas City - Have an arena but no one has made any real effort to be an NHL owner in that market

5. Atlanta - Would need both an ownership group and an arena plan, but there has been some recent rumors that there are willing owners with an arena plan waiting on the opportunity. Would likely have to play in an ECHL arena in Duluth until a new arena could be built.

6. Quebec City - Have both an arena and a willing owner, but questions about the market long-term viability. Expressed interest in expansion but balked at the price.

Quebec City never balked at the price. Bettman skipped them for Vegas and Seattle.

 

[TheLegend]

The thing is in special elections like this you get the most active and plugged in voters. When you do it in November with a whole bunch of things on the ballot you get people who are their to vote for other things and this is an afterthought. Just because someone disagreed with you doesn't mean they "didn't get it", watching the news reports, some people simply didn't want an arena and high end housing in their neighborhood. Others had doubts about Meruelo. Maybe it would have made sense for him to show up instead of outsourcing everything to the team president. I mean how do you expect people to trust you as a partner when you don't even show up. I know people will have some excuses for it, but its flat out stupid when the opposition is calling you corrupt and shady and you don't even show up.

No we aren't taking that many of you.

Everyone the media interviewed who voted against the proposition have said the T-word. The opposition had an easy selling point and they hit it hard and early.

Meruelo and his family were out canvassing in Tempe along with volunteers as late as last week. So you can put that one away.

 

[Rich Nixon]

One thing I have always wondered is why municipalities can't work together. Why can't Tempe and Phoenix (or whatever Counties and Townships are involved) work out a deal to split the cost but also split the revenue that would be generated?

1. People don't like to share.
2. You need to generate revenue in order to have revenue to share. And this likely would not have done that.

 

[cbcwpg]

I'm not convinced the "NHL is terribly disappointed" ... I think it's just Bettman that is " terribly disappointed "

Give truth serum to all the owners, and you will probably find most of them just want this to all end, even if that means moving the team.

 

[PredsHead]

Austin or Portland?

Austin doesn't have an arena big enough as the new one built for University of Texas basketball only seats around 11,000. Also it would be harder to sell expansion in Houston if there is already a team in Austin.

Portland does have the arena but it is owned by the Paul Allen trust which also owns the Trailblazers. The NBA commissioner has said that the team will be sold eventually but hasn't said when so doubt they would want to complicate that further by adding an NHL team.

 

[TheLegend]

Quebec City never balked at the price. Bettman skipped them for Vegas and Seattle.

Quebecor needed investors and didn't get them.

 

[PredsHead]

Quebec City never balked at the price. Bettman skipped them for Vegas and Seattle.

Their bid for expansion was deferred because they couldn't make it work financially.

 

[Tawnos]

Quebec City never balked at the price. Bettman skipped them for Vegas and Seattle.

IIRC, the QC expansion bid was $150m less than the Vegas bid.

So unless I am missing something there would be six likely candidates for relocation if that is the route we are headed down:

1. Houston - Everything would already be in place and the Rockets owner has previously expressed interest, but he balked at the price.

2. Salt Lake City - Everything would already be in place and the Jazz owner has recently expressed interest, but there are questions about the market supporting both NHL and NBA teams

3. Sacramento - Everything would already be in place and the Kings owner has recently expressed interest, but there are questions about the market supporting both NHL and NBA teams. Also have to worry about poaching some fans from the San Jose market as they are relatively close.

4. Kansas City - Have an arena but no one has made any real effort to be an NHL owner in that market

5. Atlanta - Would need both an ownership group and an arena plan, but there has been some recent rumors that there are willing owners with an arena plan waiting on the opportunity. Would likely have to play in an ECHL arena in Duluth until a new arena could be built.

6. Quebec City - Have both an arena and a willing owner, but questions about the market long-term viability. Expressed interest in expansion but balked at the price.

For 5 and 6, I'd mention the east coast issue

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Quebecor needed investors and didn't get them.

While true, they also were not REALLY considered. The NHL never wanted to give #32 to Quebec City.

Quebec City was always, at best, a relocation option.

 

[Bucky_Hoyt]

So unless I am missing something there would be six likely candidates for relocation if that is the route we are headed down:

1. Houston - Everything would already be in place and the Rockets owner has previously expressed interest, but he balked at the price.

2. Salt Lake City - Everything would already be in place and the Jazz owner has recently expressed interest, but there are questions about the market supporting both NHL and NBA teams

3. Sacramento - Everything would already be in place and the Kings owner has recently expressed interest, but there are questions about the market supporting both NHL and NBA teams. Also have to worry about poaching some fans from the San Jose market as they are relatively close.

4. Kansas City - Have an arena but no one has made any real effort to be an NHL owner in that market

5. Atlanta - Would need both an ownership group and an arena plan, but there has been some recent rumors that there are willing owners with an arena plan waiting on the opportunity. Would likely have to play in an ECHL arena in Duluth until a new arena could be built.

6. Quebec City - Have both an arena and a willing owner, but questions about the market long-term viability. Expressed

SLC's arena is passable for a short-term solution. Sight-lines aren't as bad as most basketball-centric arenas and the frozen fury games have gotten solid attendance.

I can't find any images for Sacramento.

All the rest should be able to house hockey and are at least 16k if not bigger.

I'd say SLC is more than a dark horse.

interest in expansion but balked at the price.

 

[Mike Jones]

One thing the league could do is fold Arizona and approve an expansion team somewhere else.

Hear me out: The league's teams could hold a dispersal draft that would include Arizona's players, acquired picks, drafted players' rights, etc. That could add up to 2 assets per organization.

The league's teams could then split the expansion fees from the new franchise.

The dispersal and expansion drafts can happen the same week as the entry draft.

Win/win.

 

[TheLegend]

While true, they also were not REALLY considered. The NHL never wanted to give #32 to Quebec City.

Quebec City was always, at best, a relocation option.

Not convinced of that. It's more than just meeting an expansion price.

It's like you buy a Ferrari (even a used one), but then it sits there in the garage because you having no money left over to put gas in it or perform the maintenance.

 

[Troy McClure]

When I saw the meager effort from the Coyotes owners to get this passed (spending under $250k on the yes campaign), I think there are only two possible reasons:

1) Coyotes owners don't have the money to put forward a serious campaign, which means this whole project was going to go up in flames even if this passed if they're that strapped for cash; or

2) Coyotes owners were trying to tank the thing because relocation was always the goal -- but they had to go through this charade of pretending to chase a failed development boondoggle to get Bettman to relent on relocation.

 

[Tawnos]

One thing the league could do is fold Arizona and approve an expansion team somewhere else.

Hear me out: The league's teams could hold a dispersal draft that would include Arizona's players, acquired picks, drafted players' rights, etc. That could add up to 2 assets per organization.

The league's teams could then split the expansion fees from the new team.

The dispersal and expansion drafts can happen the same week as the entry draft.

Win/win.

I don't see any way to make a dispersal draft work with team's existing cap payrolls without saying those players don't count against the cap... and then you're in a situation where the players owe the owners a bunch of money to make the 50/50 split work right. Meanwhile those same owners are pocketing the expansion fees that don't go towards HRR. Sure, some of the incoming salary is offset by whoever is lost in the expansion draft... but it's really not a workable path.