CXLV - Tempe Entertainment District citizen referendum vote upcoming May 16th

[Major4Boarding]

Even if Fertitta had a change of heart and does want to buy a team - you can't negotiate and then close a deal of that magnitude in 2 weeks.

Secret Phrase of the Forum - Sorry. Couldn't resist

 

[TheGreenTBer]

TWO

FREAKING

WEEKS

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Two weeks? ...wow 2009

 

[mouser]

Two former Tempe mayors, brought some inside info about TED and some historical background of the site.

They also brought receipts.

Has some great educational info covering all sorts of questions posters have recently asked in this thread. Well worth watching.

One interesting tidbit I wasn’t aware of is water has been seeping into the TED site landfill dump, likely as a result of the new Tempe Town Lake. Makes sense, the town lake raised the water table and the dump landfill doesn't have protective liners.

That creates a major incentive for Tempe to get the landfill resolved sooner than later. Potential for the water to carry contaminants from the dump outside the land footprint or release them upward.

 

[aqib]

An argument could be made in respect to this...

Why is it wrong to for a private entity to pay for a referendum that could overturn a council decision, when said referendum could torpedo what the private entity wanted and already got on a 7-0 vote??

Then again this is Arizona and people do funny things here.

In theory if you set the precedent of private entities paying for referendums then that compromises democracy. The whole idea behind direct democracy is that people could put issues on the ballot if the government doesn't meet their needs. If it becomes an issue of who has the most money that flies in the face of the intent.

This is not a shot at Arizona, we had this problem in Ohio too

 

[aqib]

Just curious how far from the proposed arena site was the Tempe arena that Antony LeBlanc proposed?

 

[Llama19]

Tempe entertainment district could use over one million gallons of water daily

To quote:

"A water flow analysis acquired from the city of Tempe says tenants could use upward of 1.09 million gallons of water per day in the proposed Arizona Coyotes and Tempe entertainment district.

While water officials said this number isn't massive compared to typical city water usage, the entertainment district wouldn't use water from the city's largest and most sustainable source. Instead, it would come from remaining sources of Tempe's water supply that are less sustainable or reliable, like the Central Arizona Project, the 336-mile diversion canal that provides water from the Colorado River to areas of central and southern Arizona.

According to the city of Tempe's water resources master plan published in August 2021, about 82% of the city's water came from Salt River Project surface water member supplies. This water is only accessible on land that falls within the boundaries of SRP's private water association, the Salt River Valley Water Users Association. These lands are often referred to as SRP member lands.

The land the Coyotes are hoping to build on, like most developments along the bank of the Salt River, is not located on SRP member lands, therefore it cannot receive water from SRP’s surface water supply. Randy Miller, a member of SRP's Association Board, confirmed SRP would not provide water directly to the district. The water for the district will come from a combination of CAP water, groundwater and from the limited supply from Roosevelt Lake."

Source: www.statepress.com/article/2023/04/coyotes-tempe-entertainment-district-water-central-arizona-project

 

[awfulwaffle]

Tempe entertainment district could use over one million gallons of water daily

To quote:

"A water flow analysis acquired from the city of Tempe says tenants could use upward of 1.09 million gallons of water per day in the proposed Arizona Coyotes and Tempe entertainment district.

While water officials said this number isn't massive compared to typical city water usage, the entertainment district wouldn't use water from the city's largest and most sustainable source. Instead, it would come from remaining sources of Tempe's water supply that are less sustainable or reliable, like the Central Arizona Project, the 336-mile diversion canal that provides water from the Colorado River to areas of central and southern Arizona.

According to the city of Tempe's water resources master plan published in August 2021, about 82% of the city's water came from Salt River Project surface water member supplies. This water is only accessible on land that falls within the boundaries of SRP's private water association, the Salt River Valley Water Users Association. These lands are often referred to as SRP member lands.

The land the Coyotes are hoping to build on, like most developments along the bank of the Salt River, is not located on SRP member lands, therefore it cannot receive water from SRP’s surface water supply. Randy Miller, a member of SRP's Association Board, confirmed SRP would not provide water directly to the district. The water for the district will come from a combination of CAP water, groundwater and from the limited supply from Roosevelt Lake."

Source: www.statepress.com/article/2023/04/coyotes-tempe-entertainment-district-water-central-arizona-project

I'm sorry, but I have very little complaint about water usage in Arizona when your elected leaders(although they stopped new ones recently), allows Saudi Arabia to use water freely for their alfalfa farms. To be conscious/complain about this now, is kind of laughable.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Interesting argument. I mean Arizona and greater Phoenix as a whole should be very concerned about water use as I understand it.

However, any development of that land would lead to increased water use. To deny the TED on that basis would mean that it should just stay as a landfill.

 

[TheLegend]

Tempe entertainment district could use over one million gallons of water daily

To quote:

"A water flow analysis acquired from the city of Tempe says tenants could use upward of 1.09 million gallons of water per day in the proposed Arizona Coyotes and Tempe entertainment district.

While water officials said this number isn't massive compared to typical city water usage, the entertainment district wouldn't use water from the city's largest and most sustainable source. Instead, it would come from remaining sources of Tempe's water supply that are less sustainable or reliable, like the Central Arizona Project, the 336-mile diversion canal that provides water from the Colorado River to areas of central and southern Arizona.

According to the city of Tempe's water resources master plan published in August 2021, about 82% of the city's water came from Salt River Project surface water member supplies. This water is only accessible on land that falls within the boundaries of SRP's private water association, the Salt River Valley Water Users Association. These lands are often referred to as SRP member lands.

The land the Coyotes are hoping to build on, like most developments along the bank of the Salt River, is not located on SRP member lands, therefore it cannot receive water from SRP’s surface water supply. Randy Miller, a member of SRP's Association Board, confirmed SRP would not provide water directly to the district. The water for the district will come from a combination of CAP water, groundwater and from the limited supply from Roosevelt Lake."

Source: www.statepress.com/article/2023/04/coyotes-tempe-entertainment-district-water-central-arizona-project

Red herring argument.

Tempe1st threw that argument out there over two months ago and it got no traction. Now they've enlisted the newspaper at ASU to try amplifying their messages (both main characters running Tempe1st work at ASU).

On the other side of the valley, Glendale is building a new resort that includes a 5.5 acre man made lake that will use even more water and it's drawing crickets.

 

[TheLegend]

Just curious how far from the proposed arena site was the Tempe arena that Antony LeBlanc proposed?

Just slightly father to the east than where Mullett Arena is. If you were wondering if THAT site was still available, I don't believe it is.

 

[Llama19]

I'm sorry, but I have very little complaint about water usage in Arizona when your elected leaders(although they stopped new ones recently), allows Saudi Arabia to use water freely for their alfalfa farms. To be conscious/complain about this now, is kind of laughable.

Nope...

Saudi-owned farm in La Paz County denied plan for new wells

Source: parkerliveonline.com/2023/04/25/saudi-owned-farm-in-la-paz-county-denied-plan-for-new-wells/

 

[awfulwaffle]

Nope...

Saudi-owned farm in La Paz County denied plan for new wells

Source: parkerliveonline.com/2023/04/25/saudi-owned-farm-in-la-paz-county-denied-plan-for-new-wells/

Yes, like I said, they blocked new ones, but the existing ones are still there, and have bene left unchecked for a very long time.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Yeah, the whole "water usage signals the death of Arizona" is way overblown, once you realize that agriculture uses way, way more water than residential...and there's still a lot of acreage of agriculture in the Salt and Gila river basins:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

So, should we manage water usage well (pun intended)? Absolutely. Using that as a reason to halt TED? Garbage. Which is what will start seeping into the water table if they don't take care of that landfill pronto....all you taxpayer defenders that I know are reading this...who would you rather have pay for that landfill cleanup? Alex Muruelo or Tempe homeowners? Because they can't wait anymore, no more kicking the can.

 

[aqib]

Just slightly father to the east than where Mullett Arena is. If you were wondering if THAT site was still available, I don't believe it is.

No I was trying to remember why that deal didn't work out and if there was any link between that one and this one.

 

[Stumbledore]

lake that will use even more water and it's drawing crickets.

I would expect water to draw lots of other insects, too.

 

[TheLegend]

No I was trying to remember why that deal didn't work out and if there was any link between that one and this one.

That deal didn’t work out because it involved a heavy direct subsidy from the state to operate. Plus ASU backed out after another bill was put forth by the governor that meant a lot more money to them than the partnership with IceArizona did.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

So if there is big turnout, do we think that's a good or bad sign for it passing?

 

[Llama19]

Is the Tempe-Coyotes site a 'toxic' landfill? Probably not, but there's more to the story

To quote:

"The Arizona Coyotes have touted their $2.1 billion project proposal in Tempe as an opportunity to "transform a landfill into a landmark," and a public service to clean up the city's "toxic liability" on their dime, not taxpayers'. Opponents of the deal contend the landfill is just a "compost heap," which helps "to keep our parks green."

An Arizona Republic analysis found the truth is somewhere in between.

No more than two-thirds of the site is a landfill, for example, but nearly all of it contains some amount of buried trash. The site isn't toxic, but does contain methane. And most of the trash isn't near groundwater that it could contaminate, but some of it lies below the water table.

[Geotechnical engineer Chet] Pearson summed up the Coyotes site as nothing out of the ordinary. He doesn't believe it's toxic and explained that it's pretty much on par with other properties he's worked on across the region, such as the neighboring Tempe Center of the Arts site and the Riverview Industrial Buildings in Phoenix.

"How they're calling it toxic, I don't understand," he told The Republic. "If you emptied the acid from a car battery onto the soil, and it soaked into the soil, would it be a toxic landfill? No. It would be a small volume of impacted soils to handle appropriately.""

Source (Paywall): www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2023/04/29/landfill-to-landmark-the-truth-about-tempe-coyotes-project-site/70156492007/

 

[TheLegend]

Is the Tempe-Coyotes site a 'toxic' landfill? Probably not, but there's more to the story

To quote:

"The Arizona Coyotes have touted their $2.1 billion project proposal in Tempe as an opportunity to "transform a landfill into a landmark," and a public service to clean up the city's "toxic liability" on their dime, not taxpayers'. Opponents of the deal contend the landfill is just a "compost heap," which helps "to keep our parks green."

An Arizona Republic analysis found the truth is somewhere in between.

No more than two-thirds of the site is a landfill, for example, but nearly all of it contains some amount of buried trash. The site isn't toxic, but does contain methane. And most of the trash isn't near groundwater that it could contaminate, but some of it lies below the water table.

[Geotechnical engineer Chet] Pearson summed up the Coyotes site as nothing out of the ordinary. He doesn't believe it's toxic and explained that it's pretty much on par with other properties he's worked on across the region, such as the neighboring Tempe Center of the Arts site and the Riverview Industrial Buildings in Phoenix.

"How they're calling it toxic, I don't understand," he told The Republic. "If you emptied the acid from a car battery onto the soil, and it soaked into the soil, would it be a toxic landfill? No. It would be a small volume of impacted soils to handle appropriately.""

Source (Paywall): www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2023/04/29/landfill-to-landmark-the-truth-about-tempe-coyotes-project-site/70156492007/

Cherry picking again.....

The article covers a lot of possibilities, and even Pearson admits it could end up costing a lot more..

Pearson said he's "never seen (a cleanup) that approaches those types of costs" and believes the Coyotes' actual bill will be much lower. But he admits that he doesn't know if there will be unforeseen issues once the team breaks ground, something that's well within the realm of reality and could drive remediation costs through the roof.

The link in this quote refers to another article about another site along Tempe Town Lake that ended up qualifying as an EPA Superfund site.

So IOW.... another speculative article. All be it a good one. Anyone who can get past the paywall should read the entire thing.

 

[mouser]

Cherry picking again.....

The article covers a lot of possibilities, and even Pearson admits it could end up costing a lot more..



The link in this quote refers to another article about another site along Tempe Town Lake that ended up qualifying as an EPA Superfund site.

So IOW.... another speculative article. All be it a good one. Anyone who can get past the paywall should read the entire thing.

On the positive side, if in fact the land does end up costing less to remediate then estimated, Tempe hasn't lost out on any value. Tempe will still be paid the same $53m for the land post-remediation and the CFD will take on less debt from the remediation costs, meaning a larger % of future CFD generated funds will flow into Tempe's coffers.

 

[TheLegend]

On the positive side, if in fact the land does end up costing less to remediate then estimated, Tempe hasn't lost out on any value. Tempe will still be paid the same $53m for the land post-remediation and the CFD will take on less debt from the remediation costs, meaning a larger % of future CFD generated funds will flow into Tempe's coffers.

I was wondering about that.

Have to think that given what happened with Tempe Marketplace the city was more than concerned this site might have its own little surprise. So I could see how they would mind keeping the estimate for remediation on the high side as a safe play.

What is getting lost in all this is the arena is going to sit squarely on that site and was going to require being set well under grade just to get under the height limitations set by the FAA. So digging down that far was going to be necessary anyway.

You could look at it from this perspective:

- Tempe gets the landfill removed with the bonds covering most of it.

- Meruelo does save some costs in building the arena in that removing the landfill eliminates something he would have to do anyway.

 

[Llama19]

A toxic mess, 'one of the worst,' became Tempe Marketplace

To quote:

"The city and Tempe Marketplace developer Vestar shouldered much of the nearly $40 million cost of cleanup, though Tempe did receive grants and loans totaling $8 million from the U.S. Housing and Urban Development and the Brownfield Economic Development Initiative."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe-history/2017/09/20/what-buried-where-tempe-marketplace-now-stands/672612001/

 

[TheLegend]

A toxic mess, 'one of the worst,' became Tempe Marketplace

To quote:

"The city and Tempe Marketplace developer Vestar shouldered much of the nearly $40 million cost of cleanup, though Tempe did receive grants and loans totaling $8 million from the U.S. Housing and Urban Development and the Brownfield Economic Development Initiative."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe-history/2017/09/20/what-buried-where-tempe-marketplace-now-stands/672612001/

AND….

Significant geotechnical and environmental remediation started in 2004, and by 2007 the $250 million shopping center opened.

Unfortunately the article does not specify the amount of land that was removed. The project was also 19 years ago.

Nevertheless it goes back to the point that nobody really knows exactly what’s in the landfill at Priest and Rio Salado. Short of doing thousands of bore holes into the site and at that point you might as well dig it all up.

 

[Llama19]

Tempe-Coyotes deal: A guide to dueling economic studies

To quote:

"The Arizona Republic reviewed both reports and interviewed their authors to help voters make sense of it all. This article focuses only on the city-specific tax revenue forecast made in both reports for the entire Coyotes project site.

Economists who do those types of impact reports have to make assumptions to forecast how much cash the project might generate over the course of three decades. They use tools such as market trend data to ensure their estimates are reasonable, but it's not a perfect science, so researchers can disagree on how to approach it.

Here, the biggest difference between the two audits is how they presented their numbers:

- GCI adjusted its financial figures to show the actual value of the money generated by the Coyotes project over the course of three decades.
- ASU used what's called "cumulative" or "nominal" figures. That basically means that Hoffman's team counted the number of dollars, rather than keeping their value consistent with inflation year-over-year, which can make the total revenue appear to be worth more than it actually would be at a future date.

Those different approaches can have a massive impact on how lucrative the deal seems to onlookers. When the revenue forecast in the Coyotes’ first study is adjusted for inflation over the project’s 30-year life span, it decreases by more than half, for example."

Source (Paywall): www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2023/04/30/tempe-coyotes-deal-a-guide-to-competing-economic-studies/70136561007/