CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes

[Shwan]

One important detail to keep in mind with Colangelo: he is often referred to as the “owner” of the Suns, but in reality he was a minority owner with the general managing partner title. Same situation with the MLB Diamondbacks, he organized a consortium of other investors and was initially the face of the franchise, but owned a minority share of the team.

Colangelo didn’t have any independent wealth. Any prospective purchase of the Coyotes/Jets would have required Colangelo to convince a group of investors to front the money. Presumably targeting the primary owners of the Suns. I haven’t researched who the primary background Suns owners were during Colangelo’s “ownership” term.

Proto-LeBlanc

 

[StreetHawk]

Dallas yes, DFW Metroplex is massive. A second arena would've done fine there.

Being the second arena would then come down to who pays for it. IIRC, city contributed to the AAC, so they likely would not be interested in supporting a second one. So, the Stars would likely have had to finance it on their own or have it built in a different county to where the AAC is located in order to get some government funding. But, have to factor in location relative to the fanbase otherwise it's another Glendale situation.

 

[aqib]

Arena opened in 1992, 4 years before the jets arrived. Plus, factor in construction timeline of 2 years, it's 6 years before the jets arrived when shovels hit the ground. Add in plans, zoning, financing, it's likely about 8 years in like 1988 or 1989 at the latest when the plans started for the arena.

I mean, if Dallas/Denver had the same situation as Arizona with Ball Arena/AAC built 3-4 years before the Stars/Nords arrive, is their fate likely the same as the Coyotes was? I don't think Denver market needed a 2nd indoor 18K arena. Probably not Dallas either.

This is where I come back to the question of how much does it cost to make a basketball only arena suitable for hockey. Originally Barclays was supposed to be for hockey as well then they scaled it back and supposedly that saved some money but in the end they wound up having a competitor arena 20 miles away.

 

[Golden_Jet]

This is where I come back to the question of how much does it cost to make a basketball only arena suitable for hockey. Originally Barclays was supposed to be for hockey as well then they scaled it back and supposedly that saved some money but in the end they wound up having a competitor arena 20 miles away.

Leafs building was originally for Raptors, and leaf’s came in late and changed it to include hockey.
If not done at planning stage, it’s a harder makeover.

 

[StreetHawk]

This is where I come back to the question of how much does it cost to make a basketball only arena suitable for hockey. Originally Barclays was supposed to be for hockey as well then they scaled it back and supposedly that saved some money but in the end they wound up having a competitor arena 20 miles away.

I believe when the coyotes arrived the estimated cost was about half the original cost of the arena to make it nil compatible. Think footprint originally came in at like $130 mill or so back in 1992. Cost in 96/97 to make it nhl ready was at least $60-70 mill back then. I mean pre Covid when phx offered to tear it down vs renovate it for the nhl I think the cost was too high, well above the $250 mill in renovations they did just to maintain the current structure. It might have been close to $400 mill to do the structural change plus the update. Would have made more sense to build a new one instead.

Arenas have gone for under $200 mill in the 90’s to $350-$400 mill in the 2000-2010, to now like $650 mill and up in the 2020’s.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I believe when the coyotes arrived the estimated cost was about half the original cost of the arena to make it nil compatible. Think footprint originally came in at like $130 mill or so back in 1992. Cost in 96/97 to make it nhl ready was at least $60-70 mill back then. I mean pre Covid when phx offered to tear it down vs renovate it for the nhl I think the cost was too high, well above the $250 mill in renovations they did just to maintain the current structure. It might have been close to $400 mill to do the structural change plus the update. Would have made more sense to build a new one instead.

Arenas have gone for under $200 mill in the 90’s to $350-$400 mill in the 2000-2010, to now like $650 mill and up in the 2020’s.

It’s like 900 million US now, it has gone crazy.

 

[aqib]

I believe when the coyotes arrived the estimated cost was about half the original cost of the arena to make it nil compatible. Think footprint originally came in at like $130 mill or so back in 1992. Cost in 96/97 to make it nhl ready was at least $60-70 mill back then. I mean pre Covid when phx offered to tear it down vs renovate it for the nhl I think the cost was too high, well above the $250 mill in renovations they did just to maintain the current structure. It might have been close to $400 mill to do the structural change plus the update. Would have made more sense to build a new one instead.

Arenas have gone for under $200 mill in the 90’s to $350-$400 mill in the 2000-2010, to now like $650 mill and up in the 2020’s.

They spent quite a bit in the 2003 renovation. If they Suns and Coyotes were under one ownership group I think they probably would have done that.

 

[StreetHawk]

They spent quite a bit in the 2003 renovation. If they Suns and Coyotes were under one ownership group I think they probably would have done that.

In 2003, the Coyotes were on their way to Glendale. The Glendale Arena opened in about Dec 2003, half a season before the work stoppage of 2004. Decision to leave was made back in around 2000 once they made the agreement with Glendale.

But, yes, when you are the 2nd pro team in an indoor arena that was recently built, you are just a tenant if the 2 teams are owned by different owners. Jets would have needed to arrive like 7 or so years earlier to get the same type of deal that the Mavs/Stars got with the AAC where they shared in the construction costs with the city.

 

[TheLegend]

They spent quite a bit in the 2003 renovation. If they Suns and Coyotes were under one ownership group I think they probably would have done that.

In 2003, the Coyotes were on their way to Glendale. The Glendale Arena opened in about Dec 2003, half a season before the work stoppage of 2004. Decision to leave was made back in around 2000 once they made the agreement with Glendale.

But, yes, when you are the 2nd pro team in an indoor arena that was recently built, you are just a tenant if the 2 teams are owned by different owners. Jets would have needed to arrive like 7 or so years earlier to get the same type of deal that the Mavs/Stars got with the AAC where they shared in the construction costs with the city.

(citing this from memory so there’s going to be things missing)

Steve Ellman bought out Gluckstern’s share of the franchise in 1999. He had a dead shopping mall in South Scottsdale he wanted to revitalize and came up with the plan to build an arena on the site as an anchor. Wanted to have the city fund its construction but they were leery about Ellman’s financial ability to pull it all off (and history proved the city right)

Biggest red flag to that was Ellman needed to bring Jerry Moyes in at the last minute to complete the purchase. Otherwise he was going to lose his $25 million deposit he had down and the league had Paul Allen ready to take the Coyotes off to Portland.

Now Burke is on the record stating the Coyotes only had about 4 years left they could stay at Footprint given the escalation in player salaries at the time.

Could they have sold the team to Colangelo? Hard to say…. as @mouser pointed out Jerry Colangelo was a “managing partner” with little skin in the game and not all that financially well off. Colangelo also was busy with the DBacks pushing for that World Series run in 2001.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I believe when the coyotes arrived the estimated cost was about half the original cost of the arena to make it nil compatible. Think footprint originally came in at like $130 mill or so back in 1992. Cost in 96/97 to make it nhl ready was at least $60-70 mill back then. I mean pre Covid when phx offered to tear it down vs renovate it for the nhl I think the cost was too high, well above the $250 mill in renovations they did just to maintain the current structure. It might have been close to $400 mill to do the structural change plus the update. Would have made more sense to build a new one instead.

Arenas have gone for under $200 mill in the 90’s to $350-$400 mill in the 2000-2010, to now like $650 mill and up in the 2020’s.

It’s like 900 million US now, it has gone crazy.

It's too much. I feel inflation is a part of it but can't prove it. The cost of materials is also insane.`

This is where I come back to the question of how much does it cost to make a basketball only arena suitable for hockey. Originally Barclays was supposed to be for hockey as well then they scaled it back and supposedly that saved some money but in the end they wound up having a competitor arena 20 miles away.

I have to agree here. Although I wonder how UBS will do if the islanders go through a rebuild. They made a mistake taking out the ice sheet from Barclays

 

[Sgt Schultz]

Unless you are at the point where you are counting every penny when building an arena, it makes sense to build it to host as many events as possible. It does not generate any revenue sitting idle. Granted, there is a tradeoff between being "ideal" for the main sport and versatility, but versatility may be what pays the bills and allows better cash flow for upgrades later, perhaps extending the life of the investment.

Of course, that depends on the market. If you are building an arena in Cheyenne, Wyoming, what you are realistically expecting to accommodate is different than if you are building it 100 miles down the road in Denver.

 

[StreetHawk]

Unless you are at the point where you are counting every penny when building an arena, it makes sense to build it to host as many events as possible. It does not generate any revenue sitting idle. Granted, there is a tradeoff between being "ideal" for the main sport and versatility, but versatility may be what pays the bills and allows better cash flow for upgrades later, perhaps extending the life of the investment.

Of course, that depends on the market. If you are building an arena in Cheyenne, Wyoming, what you are realistically expecting to accommodate is different than if you are building it 100 miles down the road in Denver.

Most cities, if they don't have an NHL or AHL club are not going to build it accommodate a permanent ice maker. Look at those NBA cities like Sacrament, Indiana, Charlotte, and company. When the Sharks opted to not join the Warriors, the Chase Center is also not capable of hosting an NHL team as the arena is designed better for concerts and other events.

If the Sixers do build their own arena and they appear to be doing that, I think they follow how the Warriors built Chase Center and not have permanent ice as the Flyers will have their own arena.

 

[Tawnos]

Most cities, if they don't have an NHL or AHL club are not going to build it accommodate a permanent ice maker. Look at those NBA cities like Sacrament, Indiana, Charlotte, and company. When the Sharks opted to not join the Warriors, the Chase Center is also not capable of hosting an NHL team as the arena is designed better for concerts and other events.

If the Sixers do build their own arena and they appear to be doing that, I think they follow how the Warriors built Chase Center and not have permanent ice as the Flyers will have their own arena.

The arena the Charlotte Hornets play in had an ice plant when the Checkers played there. I’m not sure if it still does, because the Checkers have played in a smaller arena just outside of Uptown (which is what the city center is called here) for the last 10 years. I’m assuming not, since I don’t see any ice events on their calendar through February.

The ice plant isn’t the real issue. It’s the seating layout. Where the Checkers play now isn’t even that much smaller than Spectrum Center. It seats 8,600 for hockey. Spectrum held 14,000 but 4,000 of those were obstructed view.

 

[aqib]

It's too much. I feel inflation is a part of it but can't prove it. The cost of materials is also insane.`

I have to agree here. Although I wonder how UBS will do if the islanders go through a rebuild. They made a mistake taking out the ice sheet from Barclays

The costs of everything has gone insane. Part of it is inflation, part of it is corporate consolidation. I was working on housing affordability and out of curiousity I looked up by old apartment building in Cleveland. Its got up 60% in 8 years. Cleveland hasn't become so much more prosperous in the last 8 years to justify that increase. Its just that a big firm bought the place. We saw when there was a baby formula shortage 3 companies control 90% of the baby formula market in the US.

Ice sheet or no ice sheet, Barclays wasn't built with a hockey seating configuration.

 

[StreetHawk]

The arena the Charlotte Hornets play in had an ice plant when the Checkers played there. I’m not sure if it still does, because the Checkers have played in a smaller arena just outside of Uptown (which is what the city center is called here) for the last 10 years. I’m assuming not, since I don’t see any ice events on their calendar through February.

The ice plant isn’t the real issue. It’s the seating layout. Where the Checkers play now isn’t even that much smaller than Spectrum Center. It seats 8,600 for hockey. Spectrum held 14,000 but 4,000 of those were obstructed view.

Hockey seating is mostly an Oval shape. Basketball is more rectangular. thus, the issue with obstructed seats when you don't build for an NHL team and have to fit them in later.

 

[aqib]

In 2003, the Coyotes were on their way to Glendale. The Glendale Arena opened in about Dec 2003, half a season before the work stoppage of 2004. Decision to leave was made back in around 2000 once they made the agreement with Glendale.

But, yes, when you are the 2nd pro team in an indoor arena that was recently built, you are just a tenant if the 2 teams are owned by different owners. Jets would have needed to arrive like 7 or so years earlier to get the same type of deal that the Mavs/Stars got with the AAC where they shared in the construction costs with the city.

My point was simply that if they had common ownership the 2003 renovation of the arena would have made it a fit for hockey. Also you wouldn't have had 2 arenas in the same market competing for non-sports events.

 

[PredsHead]

I was looking for an update on Meruleo's Reno arena plan and saw this, it sheds some light on the process with Reno and it doesn't sound like its off to a great start.

Citing a misunderstanding, GSR's $1bn arena project seeks tax increment funding from city of Reno

The lengthy conversation on the item did not get off to a good start. Before McArdle could begin the presentation, councilwoman Jenny Brekhus asked that it be tabled due to a conflict of interest. City attorney Karl Hall, she noted, is married to GSR’s legal counsel Ann Hall.

GSR’s application is the first under the new RDA programme. The timing didn’t sit well with Brekhus, who argued the circumstances don’t paint a positive picture.

“It feels like we’re redoing the RDA in service to this entity and their ask, and I think that’s really problematic,” Brekhus said. “We’re talking about a public subsidy for a sporting venue. You don’t have to look very far to see failed sporting venues, we’ve got two of them.”

This was a reference to the National Bowling Stadium and Greater Nevada Field, the home of the minor-league baseball Reno Aces. Both venues have underperformed projections and cost the city money.

As a final note, she brought up the fact that Muruelo-backed entities have made political contributions to several candidates in town. She later cast the lone “no” vote.

Overall, the council approved the item with trepidation. Some, like Brekhus and vice mayor Naomi Duerr, were outright skeptical. Despite a “yes” vote, Duerr stated a longstanding dislike for sports stadiums getting public funds, including the Raiders’ Allegiant Stadium and soon-to-be Las Vegas A’s stadium in Las Vegas.

Others, like councilman Devon Reese and councilwoman Kathleen Taylor, specifically sought more clarity on how TIF would be utilised. And Mayor Schieve was neutral with a dash of optimism.

 

[Shwan]

Bold strategy Cotton looks like Axon hired the same circus as Meruelo did for the arena. Unite Here Local 11 has always been in Arizona and is the sister organization to Worker Power, which was originally known as CASE or Central Arizonans for a Sustainable Economy.

Scottsdale residents trying to kill approved Axon project on ballot

Scottsdale residents have launched an effort to put the controversial Axon project up for a public vote. They just need enough petition signatures.

www.azcentral.com

Still trying to put together how a hospitality union in California would care enough to spend money against a retail district that would bring more hospitality work to the Arizona though.