CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes

[StreetHawk]

My understanding for decades now has been that Arizona is exceptional in how difficult these projects can be.

Also have to consider that the metro area had a modern indoor 18K capacity arena that met their needs for non-sporting events such as concerts, speeches, etc. at Footprint. So, the need for another one was low.

 

[Tawnos]

Also have to consider that the metro area had a modern indoor 18K capacity arena that met their needs for non-sporting events such as concerts, speeches, etc. at Footprint. So, the need for another one was low.

I wasn't referring specifically to arena/staidum projects. Maybe it was a mistaken impression, but that comment was broadly about large construction being more difficult there. But yes... that did add another barrier.

 

[awfulwaffle]

There were a lot of self-inflicted hurdles too. However the biggest hurdle is the market itself.

The biggest hurdle is needing an arena to play in, plain and simple.

Yes, there absolutely are political hurdles to overcome, but such hurdles exist everywhere. The plan to build a mixed-use facility ten miles from here, in Forsyth County, has political maneuvering that may still need to be overcome. You name a place, and there are/were absolutely hurdles to jump. Arizona is not unique, this is all par for the course.

What's needed, above all else, is a developer that is an effective communicator, flexible and willing to work with city/county/state government to ensure everything goes smoothly and under whatever terms the sides all agree on. Putting it all into words is downright easy. The hard part is finding that deep-pocketed individual who can do that.

The timeline for bringing the desert dogs to a forever home is wholly dependent on that. Whether such an animal exists and is interested in bringing hockey back to Phoenix is another story, and a question no one here can answer -- at least not yet.

Not sure why you think I meant that Arizona is the only state that faces stadium issues?

 

[Shwan]

My understanding for decades now has been that Arizona is exceptional in how difficult these projects can be.

While the Coyotes have been a fascinating study in Gambler's Fallacy, bottom line remains if the string of ownership wasn't so nakedly antagonistic and self serving many of these "difficulties" could have been overcome.

Wanted to keep your long term contract with Glendale? Don't secretly use money that's supposed to be used to run the arena to pay off your debt.

Wanted to build on a landfill? Find out why the City of Tempe screwed you over a month before the public referendum.

After a meeting with the mayors of both Tempe and Phoenix and two negotiations between the city managers of Tempe and Phoenix, we understood that Tempe was open to a reasonable compromise that would protect the airport, the communities around the airport, and allow these developments to proceed. That compromise was, at Tempe’s request, reduced to a simple document that would have amended the IGA to allow current projects, including the TED, to proceed, while also restating the commitment to prohibit future residential development within the 65DNL. That document was sent to Tempe on February 7, 2023, as our Complaint makes clear. We expected to promptly hear input or agreement on that amended IGA. Instead, after over a month of delay, Tempe abruptly ended discussions with its March 17 letters, and the City of Phoenix was forced to sue. A clear and reasonable resolution was in Tempe’s hands and they elected to reject it. We join the TED developer in their frustration.

The list can go on and on.

A competent and earnest ownership group will not have anywhere near the level of pushback that we've witnessed over the years with former Coyotes owners.

 

[dj4aces]

Other than neither the Flames nor Thrashers were dragged through 28 continuous years worth of bad operation (and I know all about ASG).

I was simply pointing out that political wrangling is common in all markets when it comes to things like arena construction, which it seemed like was the topic. The mention of the local arena plan is along the lines of political wrangling, nothing more.

If someone comes into Phoenix and forges those connections with local political leaders, and has the added benefit of their last name not being Meruelo, something is far more likely to get done in the short term.

 

[Tawnos]

While the Coyotes have been a fascinating study in Gambler's Fallacy, bottom line remains if the string of ownership wasn't so nakedly antagonistic and self serving many of these "difficulties" could have been overcome.

Wanted to keep your long term contract with Glendale? Don't secretly use money that's supposed to be used to run the arena to pay off your debt.

Wanted to build on a landfill? Find out why the City of Tempe screwed you over a month before the public referendum.



The list can go on and on.

A competent and earnest ownership group will not have anywhere near the level of pushback that we've witnessed over the years with former Coyotes owners.

Well, don't take me saying that to mean that it should have made anything impossible. It's just a contributing factor to all of this. You have a notoriously difficult political situation combined with a bad string of owners and it's a recipe for disaster. For Meruelo, specifically, he didn't have the right personality to pull it off. On one level, he acknowledged that by trying to put a different face on the organization. In the end, that's just not good enough.

 

[rojac]

So, for historical purposes, are we calling the Arizona Coyotes the first team in North American pro sports to actually FOLD in over half a century?

Several WHA teams folded between 1974 and the "merger" in 1979. And do we count things like the WFL and USFL both of which had teams fold before the leagues themselves did.

 

[Tawnos]

Several WHA teams folded between 1974 and the "merger" in 1979. And do we count things like the WFL and USFL both of which had teams fold before the leagues themselves did.

There's also the Barons in 1978, which remains the last time a league contracted.

 

[rojac]

There's also the Barons in 1978, which remains the last time a league contracted.

Technically, the Barons merged with the North Stars.

 

[Tawnos]

Technically, the Barons merged with the North Stars.

Yes, but there's enough continuity to the Coyotes->Utah HC transition that you could argue that it's less of a "fold" than what happened with the Barons.

 

[rojac]

Yes, but there's enough continuity to the Coyotes->Utah HC transition that you could argue that it's less of a "fold" than what happened with the Barons.

I don't care what the continuity appears to be. I care what the NHL considers the relationship of the two teams to be. Anything else is just fans playing make beieve -- and there's too much of that on these forums already.

 

[Headshot77]

I don't care what the continuity appears to be. I care what the NHL considers the relationship of the two teams to be. Anything else is just fans playing make beieve -- and there's too much of that on these forums already.

yeah but the NHL lies

 

[AKL]

I don't care what the continuity appears to be. I care what the NHL considers the relationship of the two teams to be. Anything else is just fans playing make beieve -- and there's too much of that on these forums already.

In reality, it's a true relocation that the NHL and Ryan Smith are playing make believe is anything else

 

[Shwan]

That corporate sponsorship payed off for for Goodwill in the end.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1814061271345700976

 

[rojac]

In reality, it's a true relocation that the NHL and Ryan Smith are playing make believe is anything else

Smith did not take on any of the teams liabilities nor did he receive the the team's history nor trademarks.

 

[ponder719]

Smith did not take on any of the teams liabilities nor did he receive the the team's history nor trademarks.

But he did receive all assets other than intellectual property, and he paid cash equivalent to liabilities in lieu of taking them on. This is something like 75% relocation, 10% expansion, 15% a team folding. Everyone who claims this is categorically one of those things and not a hybrid model is going to have to do some fancy footwork to explain away the bits that don't make sense any other way.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

It's a relocation with some asterisk smudging in there. Just as the Ravens and the Browns1.0 are really the same team well actualies be damned, the Yotes/Yeti (hey, I just realized that's barely a name change...) are one team.

Keeping stats and history is just a nice nod to locals. In ten years from now if Arizona has a team again, those fans are going to care way more about the Yotes history than Utah fans will, just as Jets fans cared more about the original Jets than the Yotes fanbase did, or the Wild fans caring more about the North Stars than the Stars fans did, or the Ravens fans caring more about the Baltimore Colts than Indianapolis Colts fans did, etc., etc., regardless of name and history technicalities.

Fanbases are built off memories, and those memories aren't transferrable from one fanbase to another. Name changes should be mandated any time that a team relocates out of a market for that very reason, imho. Nobody batted an eye when the Jets were in an outdoor game and their old timers games were original Jets players, after all. That's because they were celebrating Winnipeg hockey history. Baltimore Colts alumni routinely are at and celebrated at Ravens games, as to basically a T they've all told Indianapolis to pound sand.

 

[Tawnos]

I don't care what the continuity appears to be. I care what the NHL considers the relationship of the two teams to be. Anything else is just fans playing make beieve -- and there's too much of that on these forums already.

I mean... you were the one quibbling about teams folding in leagues that don't exist anymore.

 

[Sgt Schultz]

While the Coyotes have been a fascinating study in Gambler's Fallacy, bottom line remains if the string of ownership wasn't so nakedly antagonistic and self serving many of these "difficulties" could have been overcome.

Wanted to keep your long term contract with Glendale? Don't secretly use money that's supposed to be used to run the arena to pay off your debt.

Wanted to build on a landfill? Find out why the City of Tempe screwed you over a month before the public referendum.



The list can go on and on.

A competent and earnest ownership group will not have anywhere near the level of pushback that we've witnessed over the years with former Coyotes owners.

I think you could assemble the greatest minds in sports team ownership and management history, even if you had to dig them out of the grave, and task them with designing an organization that would be as incompetent and dysfunctional as possible. Something that makes people long for the Three Stooges. I don't think with all their knowledge, experience, and skill they could come up with anything that beats what the Coyote's ownership did over the years.

It wasn't all malicious or even self-serving, but it was pretty much all incompetent. I said earlier that their best ownership came while the NHL had the keys, and I think that speaks volumes.

 

[TheLegend]

Well he followed through with something…

SCOTTSDALE, Arizona - The Meruelo Family, former owners of the Arizona Coyotes and owners of the AHL Tucson Roadrunners announced today a $2 million contribution to the Matt Shott Arizona Hockey Legacy Foundation to help support and enhance youth hockey programs throughout Arizona. The donation, which is composed of both monetary and other assets, supports the mission of the Matt Shott Arizona Hockey Legacy Foundation to conserve the growth of hockey in the state of Arizona.

Note: The donation includes money and equipment.


Full release:

Meruelo Family Donates $2 Million to Matt Shott Arizona Hockey Legacy Foundation

The Meruelo Family, former owners of the Arizona Coyotes and owners of the AHL Tucson Roadrunners announced today a $2 million contribution to the Matt Shott Arizona Hockey Legacy Foundation to help support and enhance youth hockey programs throughout Arizona.

www.oursportscentral.com

 

[aqib]

That corporate sponsorship payed off for for Goodwill in the end.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1814061271345700976

Honestly I would have thought that these would have been pretty valuable. Surprised they gave them away like that

 

[aqib]

I think you could assemble the greatest minds in sports team ownership and management history, even if you had to dig them out of the grave, and task them with designing an organization that would be as incompetent and dysfunctional as possible. Something that makes people long for the Three Stooges. I don't think with all their knowledge, experience, and skill they could come up with anything that beats what the Coyote's ownership did over the years.

It wasn't all malicious or even self-serving, but it was pretty much all incompetent. I said earlier that their best ownership came while the NHL had the keys, and I think that speaks volumes.

So its the chicken and egg. Some people say the market struggles because it has bad ownership. Others (myself included) say that potentially good ownership avoids the market because its a poor market.

 

[TheLegend]

So its the chicken and egg. Some people say the market struggles because it has bad ownership. Others (myself included) say that potentially good ownership avoids the market because its a poor market.

Except for the rule that you don’t try entering a market totally unprepared. As was the case here.

 

[aqib]

Except for the rule that you don’t try entering a market totally unprepared. As was the case here.

That was 28 years ago. Many teams have hit rough spots early on. Tampa Bay had issues early on. The Senators had issues etc.

 

[TheLegend]

That was 28 years ago. Many teams have hit rough spots early on. Tampa Bay had issues early on. The Senators had issues etc.

They were all planned…

Arizona wasn’t, and I will remind you (again) the NHL had told them they were never coming there prior to that.