CXLIV - The Tempe era set to begin as ASU opens Mullett Arena

[PredsHead]

Re Letters: Honest opinion. Phoenix and Tempe are trying to hammer out changes to the IGA to a level that they both can live with. Phoenix wants to use those latest maps as a guide, but Tempe is not sure whether they can trust Phoenix since they haven’t been submittted to the FAA for approval and who’s to say Phoenix tries to update them further, extending the contour boundaries after Tempe signs off on them.

So… Tempe may be intentionally delaying things until this vote on May 16th happens. Because if it passes then Tempe gains a little bargaining leverage back. Phoenix, doesn’t want it because then it looks like one city is meddling into a neighboring city’s affairs (ie “bullying” effect).

I see this suit being filed as just another tactic to get Tempe to give Phoenix everything it wants. Today… and beyond.

Looks like those 2019 contour maps were submitted to the FAA: https://www.skyharbor.com/media/sl4oxzuc/phx-noise-contour-letter-1-27-23.pdf

So Tempe thought they could just delay past the vote and hope Sky Harbor wouldn't notice? I'm just failing to see how sending those letters did anything positive for Tempe. What is it Tempe is wanting that it isn't getting here? If they play ball with Sky Harbor they likely get TED built, if they don't play ball they likely don't. Tempe was the one who included a minimum of 1000 residential units as a requirement in their original RFP so not sure why they wouldn't have had most of these issues already worked out with Sky Harbor before doing that.

 

[TheLegend]

Looks like those 2019 contour maps were submitted to the FAA: https://www.skyharbor.com/media/sl4oxzuc/phx-noise-contour-letter-1-27-23.pdf

So Tempe thought they could just delay past the vote and hope Sky Harbor wouldn't notice? I'm just failing to see how sending those letters did anything positive for Tempe. What is it Tempe is wanting that it isn't getting here? If they play ball with Sky Harbor they likely get TED built, if they don't play ball they likely don't. Tempe was the one who included a minimum of 1000 residential units as a requirement in their original RFP so not sure why they wouldn't have had most of these issues already worked out with Sky Harbor before doing that.

AFAIK they may be submitted but the FAA has not approved them….. yet. At least that’s the impression I got watching the November meetings. Things could have changed.

Also note when I said Tempe might be trying to delay their response some, that was only my opinion. I came up with that based on where everything stands and what might be the most likely scenario.

You have to look at this from both sides of it. Tempe would like to get TED in before agreeing to anything further, and Phoenix has a couple of reasons for it not to happen.

1) TED will be a major competitor to their downtown core business.
AND….
2) TED could give Tempe a stronger hand in renegotiating the IGA.

 

[TheLegend]

BTW…. Tempe’s mayor was on a local radio station this morning and while he’s not thrilled about the lawsuit he and Tempe’s legal staff feel they have made the correct interpretations of what the IGA allows.

Woods: Lawsuit with Phoenix over Coyotes arena deal 'really unfortunate'

Tempe Mayor Corey Woods didn't expect to see legal action from Phoenix over planned residential development part of the Coyotes arena deal.

ktar.com

 

[Rob]

Can this lawsuit hinder the building of the arena in Tempe? It was my understanding that if the “yes vote” is successful then construction would begin by the Fall.

 

[PredsHead]

AFAIK they may be submitted but the FAA has not approved them….. yet. At least that’s the impression I got watching the November meetings. Things could have changed.

Also note when I said Tempe might be trying to delay their response some, that was only my opinion. I came up with that based on where everything stands and what might be the most likely scenario.

You have to look at this from both sides of it. Tempe would like to get TED in before agreeing to anything further, and Phoenix has a couple of reasons for it not to happen.

1) TED will be a major competitor to their downtown core business.
AND….
2) TED could give Tempe a stronger hand in renegotiating the IGA.

From the link attached in the message you replied to: "The FAA has also reviewed and accepted the 2019 Comprehensive Asset Management Program (CAMP) Off Airport Land Use Map, Exhibit 2-15. The FAA uses and recognizes the 2019 CAMP 65 DNL noise contours when making land use compatibility determinations surrounding PHX."

I understand that Tempe would like to get TED approved and give up nothing to Sky Harbor, but they gave up that opportunity when they required residential on the RFP. Doing that handed Sky Harbor a valid argument for suing to try to stop the project or at least forcing Tempe to negotiate to give them something in return for not suing. The latter of which is exactly what it appeared was happening until Tempe sent the letters.

Again I just cannot understand why they would have sent the letters now. Was it just to provoke Sky Harbor into suing so Tempe could look like the bullied party?

 

[PredsHead]

Can this lawsuit hinder the building of the arena in Tempe? It was my understanding that if the “yes vote” is successful then construction would begin by the Fall.

Can it? Yes. Will it? I don't think anyone knows that yet. I'm no lawyer but I believe the lawsuit could be thrown out or a judge could stop the whole project until the suit gets settled or pretty much anything in between at this point.

 

[BattleBorn]

Phoenix has no arena for the Coyotes.
Phoenix may need an arena soon and perhaps the Coyotes can participate.

Is this a real possibility?

If not, it's just airport stuff.

If yes, then there's other issues to deal with because it seems like Phoenix may have a trump card and not want a potential contributor to downtown Phoenix in Tempe/a competitor to whatever ancillary income the arena could make based on non-hockey stuff, and God only knows what the agreement would at a hypothetical new downtown PHX arena would bring to the city of Phoenix.

Taking it to first principles, is there any more to this?

 

[sh724]

Phoenix has no arena for the Coyotes.
Phoenix may need an arena soon and perhaps the Coyotes can participate.

Is this a real possibility?

If not, it's just airport stuff.

If yes, then there's other issues to deal with because it seems like Phoenix may have a trump card and not want a potential contributor to downtown Phoenix in Tempe/a competitor to whatever ancillary income the arena could make based on non-hockey stuff, and God only knows what the agreement would at a hypothetical new downtown PHX arena would bring to the city of Phoenix.

Taking it to first principles, is there any more to this?

If you are asking if the Suns and Yotes would go in on one arena in PHX proper, that is not going to happen. PHX just spent a bunch of money renovating where the Suns play and AFAIK its not really compatiable for NHL as it currently sits.

 

[BattleBorn]

If you are asking if the Suns and Yotes would go in on one arena in PHX proper, that is not going to happen. PHX just spent a bunch of money renovating where the Suns play and AFAIK its not really compatiable for NHL as it currently sits.

Then it seems like it's just airport stuff, since there's seemingly no real interest or benefit in Phoenix poaching the Coyotes.

So what does that airport want?

To not deal with people living under the flightpaths of Sky Harbor seems to be the logical answer, especially given legislation suggesting they might wind up being forced to deal with it.

Is that a bad conclusion to make?

I don't get why this is an issue if Phoenix has no beef business-wise and Tempe seems to be desiring the project. Is it just the passage of time and needing to see movement?

 

[TheLegend]

From the link attached in the message you replied to: "The FAA has also reviewed and accepted the 2019 Comprehensive Asset Management Program (CAMP) Off Airport Land Use Map, Exhibit 2-15. The FAA uses and recognizes the 2019 CAMP 65 DNL noise contours when making land use compatibility determinations surrounding PHX."

I understand that Tempe would like to get TED approved and give up nothing to Sky Harbor, but they gave up that opportunity when they required residential on the RFP. Doing that handed Sky Harbor a valid argument for suing to try to stop the project or at least forcing Tempe to negotiate to give them something in return for not suing. The latter of which is exactly what it appeared was happening until Tempe sent the letters.

Again I just cannot understand why they would have sent the letters now. Was it just to provoke Sky Harbor into suing so Tempe could look like the bullied party?

So they do have an updated contour map.

Even so... TED falls within the same 65DNL zone as before.

Now here is the crux of the argument. And why Tempe and Meruelo feel they are right.

Sky Harbor has a list that breaks down land use alternatives for each zone...
(and I pulled it from their own site)

https://www.skyharbor.com/media/km2dfyts/1999_part150_v2_ch5_landusealternatives.pdf

Note that on Page 5-12, you have Table 5B, which covers housing. Column N-1 covers the 65-70DNL zone and you will note that the ONLY incompatible housing type are mobile homes. All the other types show as compatible with noted exceptions. Those exceptions are listed on page 5-15.

The three most noted exceptions are:
1. Condition of building permit requires proof of noise reduction mitigation of 25dB.
2, Noise easement and non-suit covenant to Phoenix (meaning you can't sue them)
3. A fair disclosure covenant that is recorded as a condition for development approval.

These same conditions apply even for the 75DNL zone.

Now Sky Harbor has tried to cover this up by producing a graphical chart that just arbitrarily notes them "incompatible". But that chart provide no justification for the incompatibility.

 

[TheLegend]

Phoenix has no arena for the Coyotes.
Phoenix may need an arena soon and perhaps the Coyotes can participate.

Is this a real possibility?

If not, it's just airport stuff.

If yes, then there's other issues to deal with because it seems like Phoenix may have a trump card and not want a potential contributor to downtown Phoenix in Tempe/a competitor to whatever ancillary income the arena could make based on non-hockey stuff, and God only knows what the agreement would at a hypothetical new downtown PHX arena would bring to the city of Phoenix.

Taking it to first principles, is there any more to this?

Unless Meruelo and the Suns' new owner agree to build new arena in Phoenix themselves, it would require a public vote and that's as good as dead. Phoenix only got away with the recent renovations to Footprint because they already had a funding mechanism in place and even that was headedly challenged.

.

 

[PredsHead]

So they do have an updated contour map.

Even so... TED falls within the same 65DNL zone as before.

Now here is the crux of the argument. And why Tempe and Meruelo feel they are right.

Sky Harbor has a list that breaks down land use alternatives for each zone...
(and I pulled it from their own site)

https://www.skyharbor.com/media/km2dfyts/1999_part150_v2_ch5_landusealternatives.pdf

Note that on Page 5-12, you have Table 5B, which covers housing. Column N-1 covers the 65-70DNL zone and you will note that the ONLY incompatible housing type are mobile homes. All the other types show as compatible with noted exceptions. Those exceptions are listed on page 5-15.

The three most noted exceptions are:
1. Condition of building permit requires proof of noise reduction mitigation of 25dB.
2, Noise easement and non-suit covenant to Phoenix (meaning you can't sue them)
3. A fair disclosure covenant that is recorded as a condition for development approval.

These same conditions apply even for the 75DNL zone.

Now Sky Harbor has tried to cover this up by producing a graphical chart that just arbitrarily notes them "incompatible". But that chart provide no justification for the incompatibility.

I believe that if the the land TED was on was already zoned for residential you would be correct and Sky Harbor would have a weaker case, however the issue Sky Harbor is having is that Tempe has to rezone land according to the resolutions: "from “Commercial” to “Mixed Use” and Residential Density Map adding “High Density – Urban Core” (more than 65 dwelling units per acre)" which Sky Harbor feels would be in violation of the IGA. Part of the IGA is that Tempe agrees to implement the land use strategies laid out Part 150 which asks that the 65db corridor not be rezoned and if it must be rezoned to try and limit the density.

 

[TheLegend]

I believe that if the the land TED was on was already zoned for residential you would be correct and Sky Harbor would have a weaker case, however the issue Sky Harbor is having is that Tempe has to rezone land according to the resolutions: "from “Commercial” to “Mixed Use” and Residential Density Map adding “High Density – Urban Core” (more than 65 dwelling units per acre)" which Sky Harbor feels would be in violation of the IGA. Part of the IGA is that Tempe agrees to implement the land use strategies laid out Part 150 which asks that the 65db corridor not be rezoned and if it must be rezoned to try and limit the density.

Which they have. Twice.

If you go back to the council meeting video. Prior to the director of Phoenix Aviation gets up, Nick Wood was at the podium and mention one of the last concessions the developer made for Sky Harbor was reduce the number of units. This was in addition to removing two floors off the housing buildings to increase the cushion between the building and the flight path envelopes.

So it seems to me that Meruelo made a lot of consessions to appease Phoenix, and they appeared to be fine with it.

At least until the negotiations for what to do beyond that went south. And that's still a bit sketchy.

 

[Yukon Joe]

OK I've been following this, but still don't understand what happened. I thought Meruelo/Yotes had come to an agreement with Sky Harbour, which is what allowed them to move forward - but now Phoenix is suing based on violating the Airport land-use agreement? How did this happen?

 

[mouser]

OK I've been following this, but still don't understand what happened. I thought Meruelo/Yotes had come to an agreement with Sky Harbour, which is what allowed them to move forward - but now Phoenix is suing based on violating the Airport land-use agreement? How did this happen?

If you read back through the last two pages there's some good information. My basic take is Phoenix wants Tempe to agree to airport expansion and whatever associated legal changes are required by the IGA (inter governmental agreement) or law. Phoenix and Tempe have been negoitating, but have not come to a full agreement at this time. Information on the full extent of those negotiations and precise details have been somewhat lacking. Phoenix has now chosen to sue Tempe over the IGA, requesting that Tempe be forced to revert the land use zoning changes made in November.

In my opinion this disagreement between Phoenix and Tempe is less about the arena site itself, and more about airport expansion/IGA going into the future.

 

[PredsHead]

Which they have. Twice.

If you go back to the council meeting video. Prior to the director of Phoenix Aviation gets up, Nick Wood was at the podium and mention one of the last concessions the developer made for Sky Harbor was reduce the number of units. This was in addition to removing two floors off the housing buildings to increase the cushion between the building and the flight path envelopes.

So it seems to me that Meruelo made a lot of consessions to appease Phoenix, and they appeared to be fine with it.

At least until the negotiations for what to do beyond that went south. And that's still a bit sketchy.

Again could be wrong but I thought they only dropped the building height once from slightly over 140 feet to 129 feet which is what prompted the number of housing units to drop from 2100 to 1995. In June the number of units was 1680 per the slide Xavier Gutierrez presented to the Tempe City Council (Link)

And then it was already down to 1995 by November 15th as seen in this slide presented by Nick Wood (Link):

Trying to find something that lists building heights to verify but not able to find anything yet.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Concerns about jets sinking a coyotes arena deal.



(I think they get this figured out, and it's just a leverage play by Phoenix to get airport expansion approval)

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Concerns about jets sinking a coyotes arena deal.

(Ironic)

Nah, it's just the airports - note how the jets themselves kept interrupting all the speakers at the Tempe 1st outdoor rally posted on here somewhere

 

[TheLegend]

Again could be wrong but I thought they only dropped the building height once from slightly over 140 feet to 129 feet which is what prompted the number of housing units to drop from 2100 to 1995. In June the number of units was 1680 per the slide Xavier Gutierrez presented to the Tempe City Council (Link) View attachment 681467

And then it was already down to 1995 by November 15th as seen in this slide presented by Nick Wood (Link):View attachment 681471


Trying to find something that lists building heights to verify but not able to find anything yet.

The early presentation from the Coyotes to the aviation board showed I believe contained original elevation maps of the project.

The number of housing units is puzzling but then again you can easily see how that number could be all over the place just by playing around with floor plans and the ratios between 1,2 and 3 bedroom units.

Another thing to consider here is… how much power can one city be allowed to have to force a neighboring city into determining its own zoning areas?

Phoenix is essentially trying to force Tempe into zoning its own land to whatever Phoenix wants with this suit. I’m honestly not sure if any judge is going to want to open that Pandora’s box.

 

[Rob]

Can it? Yes. Will it? I don't think anyone knows that yet. I'm no lawyer but I believe the lawsuit could be thrown out or a judge could stop the whole project until the suit gets settled or pretty much anything in between at this point.

Imagine the situation if the yes side wins the referendum but this lawsuit halts construction of the Tempe arena. The Coyotes May end up having to extend their stay at Mullet. What a potential mess this could be.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Imagine the situation if the yes side wins the referendum but this lawsuit halts construction of the Tempe arena. The Coyotes May end up having to extend their stay at Mullet. What a potential mess this could be.

no, the commitment is 4 years, so that's why it's not a pressing issue right now

 

[Stumbledore]

Can it? Yes. Will it? I don't think anyone knows that yet. I'm no lawyer but I believe the lawsuit could be thrown out or a judge could stop the whole project until the suit gets settled or pretty much anything in between at this point.

This is why us foreigners shake our heads in dismay at the concept of electing judges.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Can't they just built this somewhere else in Tempe? Where it doesn't interfere with the airport?

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

The early presentation from the Coyotes to the aviation board showed I believe contained original elevation maps of the project.

The number of housing units is puzzling but then again you can easily see how that number could be all over the place just by playing around with floor plans and the ratios between 1,2 and 3 bedroom units.

Another thing to consider here is… how much power can one city be allowed to have to force a neighboring city into determining its own zoning areas?

Phoenix is essentially trying to force Tempe into zoning its own land to whatever Phoenix wants with this suit. I’m honestly not sure if any judge is going to want to open that Pandora’s box.

I have heard of such an arrangement, but every time it's when a huge municipality has dominance over a tiny one.

I feel Tempe and Phoenix are on more of a level playing field than every example i can think of in small towns ive lived in, although I assume phoenix is the big brother of that relationship.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Can't they just built this somewhere else in Tempe? Where it doesn't interfere with the airport?

Apparently ownership has an in-arizona backup plan, but these kind of real estate/development plays are how you make money in the NHL if you're a lower-level franchise.

The actual hockey operations are basically a loss leader for rising land values and rising franchise values.

No way winnipeg has an NHL team if Thompson wasn't big time invested in downtown as well.