CXLIV - The Tempe era set to begin as ASU opens Mullett Arena
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I don't chirp on the Coyotes threads much and I actually think the Tempe proposal will pass & the team will be in Tempe for decades to come. But that said.....
...seriously Coyotes fans: Stop pretending Auston Matthews counts for 30 players or something. Oh my God how would hockey have gone on if there wasn't an Auston Matthews?!?! 25 years of losing money (a lot of it lost by taxpayers)?: The whole enterprise was worth it, folks! Two whole stars! WOW! *****FEEL**** the growth!
It ranks right up there with "you have to see in person!" as "things southern market fans say that they think make their favourite sport sound important but actually make it look incredibly small time."
<exhale> Rant done.
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
Auston Matthews would not be a Leaf if it wasn’t for the Arizona Coyotes.
Think about it.
(Hint: Auston has even admitted it as much)
What would Austin Matthews be? The kid grew up playing a sport.
Hockey in Arizona has been around a long time.
This is not a break through event.
If one person takes up a sport and succeeds in 25 years, is that a growing the sport thing?
No. It isn't. It's a extremely talanteed athlete.
He could be from the north pole. Do not mean the north pole had grown the game.
and where were the New Jersey Devils formed, Devils...... wasn't Newark...... wasn't Denver.... try Kansas City, the market who doesn't want professional hockey, never mind an NHL Franchise anywhere close to that market but lets its name being marketed in Independence, MO, THAT's how lame and lazy the above post comes across as
AintLifeGrand
Burnin Jet-A
....and?
Like .... seriously: what point have you proven?
I'm on your side here. I envision you thinking "Ha! The biggest Canadian sports franchise's anchor player is from Arizona which the Coyotes made possible. They know it and I'm real smart for pointing this out to these canucks.....they can't help but admit that 25 years of losing money and going nowhere was worth it *for that one player.*"
I try to stand up for southern hockey fans (and as a transplant Canadian in the south, I find myself doing it often) and it's arguments like this that make them look like idiots.
1--- One player, however good he may be, doesn't really justify such a disasterous franchise in the eyes of most hockey fans. There are plenty of great athletes in the NHL without Auston Matthews. Besides...who's to say while we found Auston Matthews in those *25* years, we didn't also miss out on three or five of him, say maybe in Houston or something? Most anti Phoenix fans would say "Really? Just one or two guys? Where's the rest of them?,"
2--- There's no evidence Auston Matthews couldn't also have discovered and adopted hockey through an AHL team. We don't know because the scenario of a NHL-less Phoenix didn’t exist for him,
3--- Let's imagine a world without the NHL in Phoenix...maybe the Leafs draft Patrik Laine instead. He's not as good as Matthews but he gels better with a different free agent pick up that isn't Tavares etc etc etc. We have no idea how well the Leafs rebuild without an Auston Matthews because the rest of the league wouldn't have him either,
4--- FWIW there's probably as many if not more anti-Phoenix folks that *hate* the Leafs and would rather they didn't have a franchise player. So this isn't the music to their ears you think it is,
5--- Not saying I'm one of these people but a lot of Canadian fans don't think it's the role of a league and sport founded in Canada to improve America's fortunes in international competition.
So again: use that "Auston makes it all worth it" canard if you want. But along with the "it doesn't come across on TV" spiel, you're actually making a case against yourself, not for......
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TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
Basketball and/or soccer if you really wanted to know.
Might want to bone up on some interviews he’s done where he was asked why he got into hockey.
TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
Auston Matthews isn’t the only one. Leafs have rights to another Arizona grown product they highly covet in Matthew Knies.
Then go look at USA Hockey and note Arizona is one of their fastest growing regions in the US for membership.
Point being…. for all its mistakes…. and there have been plenty of them…. the Coyotes have played a big part in “growing the game” in this region.
1-- Then maybe tout that instead of just "Auston Matthews, duh!,"
2--- Why does USA hockey need a NHL team in Phoenix to do the things you just described? What evidence exists that they couldn't keep doing it if the Coyotes left or couldn't have done it without the Coyotes?
3--- You ignored pretty much everything else I listed.
I only dropped in to say "Auston Matthews = clearly Coyotes were worth it" is a really really really really REALLY stupid argument [mod]
Re: Tempe, I've no qualms with it succeeding or for that matter failing (or at least, no more qualms than I have with the standard level charity billionaires receive for projects they stand to gain more from than cities. That exists everywhere. The Tempe project, best as I can tell, relies on far more private money than most so it's incredibly inoffensive by comparison to Glendale, etc.).
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PainForShane
formerly surfshop
- Dec 24, 2019
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SorryNotSorry to parachute into this but like... wtf are you talking about.
The average nhl fan doesn't give two sh*ts about which franchises might be well or poorly run halfway across the country or even in their hometown. They sure as hell care about superstars though. Case in point, personally (as a Yotes fan), I don't really care whether Ottawa or Florida or CBJ or whoever else are losing money, it's irrelevant. But paying money to see McDavid in person? Yeah I'd do that. And so would everyone else even if the EDM Oilers org suddenly declared bankruptcy.
Put another way when I see AM34 I say, "wow I'm really impressed he actually plays a 200 ft game" not "How amazing is it that TML makes so much money for their faceless conglomerate owners!" I guess we watch hockey very differently.
Like seriously wtf are you talking about. The rest of this argument is equally nonsensical maybe that's probably why Legend didn't address any of your nonsense points
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
No one cares about your assessment of the value of an argument, especially when you can't seem to clearly grasp what that argument is.
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TheLegend
"Just say it 3 times..."
Because I’ve heard them all countless times before.
It doesn’t matter it seems how much progress they’ve made with the sport here. The bar always seems to change to fit the narrative that “HoCkEy WiLl NeVeR WoRk In tHe DeSeRt!”
But then Vegas throws a monkey wrench into that…. They even hired one of the biggest blowhards who pushed that narrative out of Winnipeg and made him their top media guy.
So you see… it really doesn’t matter to me at this point. Other than if the TED proposal makes its way through this public vote come May 16th. And if Alex Meruelo can follow through on it.
The rest is just noise.
Tell me what part of the argument I failed to grasp.
Also, go on looking like an idiot if you want. Tell people how you can't understand the game until you see it in person too! That'll grow the game in no time...
EDIT: Also "no one cares what you have to say about what I have to say" is a rhetorically empty "attack the messenger" statement that adds nothing to the conversation. You know what I do about the comments I don't care about on HFBoards? I don't bother commenting on them.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
That Auston Matthews is representative of the idea that NHL teams grow the NHL talent pool. He's nothing more than the prime example, not the only one, and no one is claiming his existence *alone* justifies the franchise's existence.
No one says that line you just said. Plenty of people say the best way to fall in love with the game is to go in person, but no one says it's the only way to do that and no one says it's the only way to understand it.
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So your argument, best as I can see it, is: Auston Matthews is worth it because the NHL needs superstars and without this franchise in Arizona, we'd be down one superstar.
ONE.
ONE superstar.
One superstar who hasn't even played in the second round of the NHL playoffs in the first six seasons of his career. Hell, even Mario Lemieux won a round in his fifth season and the Penguins were even worse when they drafted him than the Leafs were when they drafted Auston.
When you make this argument, the people who you're trying to persuade think "Coyotes fans don't understand ROI. Because they're overvaluing the return and overlooking just how much was invested."
And again, if you want to look that dumb, be my guest. I tend to stand up for southern hockey fans though and I hate it when they look stupid. But I get that makes me look hyper-patronizing because I'm just a random online idiot myself, and that's totally fair. But just didn't want it to go unsaid.
Personally, my argument for the Coyotes in the year 2023 is "they're a private entity owned by a private concern that wants to make it work there and there seems to be a lot of goodwill to make it work in a part of the Phoenix area where maybe they ought to have been in the first place." Auston Matthews is a nice little bit of gravy on top of the argument but I certainly don't make the crux of the argument.
There's also a whole debate about what role the actual NHL franchises "ought to" play in growing the sport but that's a whole other ball of wax...
Plenty of people say this. I encounter it all the time. I perhaps don't need to take it out on this messageboard solely but go back and look at what Legend said in response to me. Took him the second response to move beyond "just the Auston Matthews" part.
Again, it's a ROI issue and I feel like Coyotes fans make themselves look like people that don't know how to properly value the "I" in the "ROI" when they make this argument.
Llama19
Registered User
Coyotes trade deadline analysis: Money matters
To quote:
"While Gutierrez suggested that increased ticket prices would offset the smaller size and perhaps even increase ticket revenue, the Coyotes actions say otherwise.
Aside from the arena reality, the ancillary revenue streams at Mullett are minimal (marketing, etc.) or non-existent (naming rights, parking, etc.). Many NHL teams are facing a potential loss of revenue via their RSN deals, and the Coyotes are eyeing a major investment in a $2.1 billion entertainment district after spending around $30 million to upgrade Mullett and the team’s practice facility at the Ice Den Scottsdale.
From a business standpoint, it’s understandable that the Coyotes would want to cut costs, but the optics are tough when the team is spending money on new uniforms and fashion lines while payroll looks like it does. The optics are also tough when you are trying to convince Tempe voters to approve a major development on the last major piece of real estate in this landlocked city.
Hopefully, ownership is not taking a penny-wise, pound-foolish approach."
Source: www.gophnx.com/2023/03/03/coyotes-trade-deadline-analysis-money-rules-the-day/
To quote:
"While Gutierrez suggested that increased ticket prices would offset the smaller size and perhaps even increase ticket revenue, the Coyotes actions say otherwise.
Aside from the arena reality, the ancillary revenue streams at Mullett are minimal (marketing, etc.) or non-existent (naming rights, parking, etc.). Many NHL teams are facing a potential loss of revenue via their RSN deals, and the Coyotes are eyeing a major investment in a $2.1 billion entertainment district after spending around $30 million to upgrade Mullett and the team’s practice facility at the Ice Den Scottsdale.
From a business standpoint, it’s understandable that the Coyotes would want to cut costs, but the optics are tough when the team is spending money on new uniforms and fashion lines while payroll looks like it does. The optics are also tough when you are trying to convince Tempe voters to approve a major development on the last major piece of real estate in this landlocked city.
Hopefully, ownership is not taking a penny-wise, pound-foolish approach."
Source: www.gophnx.com/2023/03/03/coyotes-trade-deadline-analysis-money-rules-the-day/
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
To the bolded: I don't believe you.
Regarding it taking "until the second response"... this is a conversation, not series of letters responding to each other like the Federalist Papers. You dropped yourself into the middle of a conversation that's been going on for years and somehow expected everyone else to rewind to where you are? And then you pretend to know what Coyotes fans think and say, as if that's one thing.
When you bring up the Auston Matthews argument, though, you show that you fail to understand the bar your critics set. [mod]
Totally fine that you have a separate bar by which you define hockey "working" in the desert. Nothing wrong with that at all. But looking at one superstar and going "SEE? IT WORKS!" and people responding "No, actually it doesn't" isn't those people moving the bar. It's those people saying "the damn thing still loses a bazillion dollars, looks $#!++y on TV, makes my favourite sport look smalltime and hockey would go on even down one superstar." Those people always thought that and were never all that concerned about measuring the success of the "Phoenix experiment" based on whether or not a hockey player can come from Arizona or not. It leads to reductio ad absurdum discussions of "why not put a team in Mexico City then?," etc. etc. that this board has heard many times before.
The bar doesn't change. There's just always been people using different bars to begin with.
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