CXLIV - The Tempe era set to begin as ASU opens Mullett Arena

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MNNumbers

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Um… if Meruelo fails and the team leaves Arizona I’m not going to go and jump off the top of the top of the Chase Building downtown if that’s what you’re implying. After all I was a LA Kings fan for years prior to Wayne Gretzky showing up.

I was actually skeptical when the first details of TED came out. If you remember I said I didn’t want to see another Steve Ellman/Westgate scenario played out here and that time it was beginning to look like another recession might hit and trigger that exact thing.

What’s different (so far) is Meruelo has shown (to me) he is in a much better position than Ellman ever was financially. The question for Tempe voters is… do THEY think it’s enough. Or do they think TED going to be good for their city or not.

I didn't mean to suggest that deep of emotional involvement. Rather, it seems to me that the reality of Meruelo's business practices cannot actually be discerned, because we have no way of looking.

Llama has one set of interpretations, you have another. Each of you have chosen them for reasons which contain emotion.

That's all. As I've often said, it's not worth arguing about because it's not going to affect the outcome.
 

LPHabsFan

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No answers for, as in??

(Yeah it’s a loaded question)

I hardly seen anyone talk about the actual documents of the deal itself. This is where I miss someone like 1CasualFan who can translate the legalese contained within them.
Well I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but here we go......

Like her blog post, it's in two separate parts. With regards to the deal, there are still a lot of questions surrounding what's actually going to be paid by the builders and what the city is going to have to pay for. The city we know is paying for the cleanup part which is substantial. I know there's the argument that they'd have to do it anyways but it's still something they're paying for. You can always make the argument that a different developer for a different project might offer to pay part of all to get their project off the ground and we don't really know that since Tempe only negotiated with Muruelo. I also know that the deal has been modified from it's initial release to put less onus on the city so I'll be honest and say I'm not fully up to date on that.

What I will say is that a lot of it boils down to economics. This is, to put it lightly, a massive project that's going to take a long time to build and a crazy amount of money. Things can change in terms of economics at any level (global, national, state, etc...) and there are no guarantees a project like this gets completed. Since I'm fairly certain this is in different phases with regards to the construction, what's stopping them from scrapping the rest of the plan once the arena is built? I'm sure they would be this penalty and that penalty but we all know things are more complicated than that and most likely nothing would happen.

Along with that, the deal changed once, it can change again. Groups are always pressuring governments to pay more and they're going to try and get as much as they can even after the deal is "final"

The other main question is about the economics of the whole situation. Firstly is that, to my knowledge, we still don't know what role the Wisconsin Public Finance Authority has to do with all of this. Are they still involved? Is it with the team operations or the arena/district project? Unless the answer is "no they're not involved", the little we do know about them is that anyone doing business with them should be very wary based on public reports.

To continue that theme, I will reiterate that the economics do not make sense. We know without a shadow of a doubt that the team is hundreds of millions of dollars in debt. We know that they will continue to increase that debt because of poor economic conditions over the next 4-5 years and even in a new arena. That's on top of the money it's going to cost to actually build the arena and entertainment district. Even then, if we looks at teams like the ones in California and Texas, the hockey team itself are most likely just going to come to breaking even plus or minus a few million (this is team itself not the arena or the owner).

Even resale value the debt load imo makes it a highly unattractive asset.

So again, I ask for someone to make sense of the economics of it all. By the way, I've been asking these questions for years and can back it up with my post history though that's for others I'm pretty sure you TL are aware of me asking these questions.
 

TheLegend

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Well I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but here we go......

Like her blog post, it's in two separate parts. With regards to the deal, there are still a lot of questions surrounding what's actually going to be paid by the builders and what the city is going to have to pay for. The city we know is paying for the cleanup part which is substantial. I know there's the argument that they'd have to do it anyways but it's still something they're paying for. You can always make the argument that a different developer for a different project might offer to pay part of all to get their project off the ground and we don't really know that since Tempe only negotiated with Muruelo. I also know that the deal has been modified from it's initial release to put less onus on the city so I'll be honest and say I'm not fully up to date on that.

What I will say is that a lot of it boils down to economics. This is, to put it lightly, a massive project that's going to take a long time to build and a crazy amount of money. Things can change in terms of economics at any level (global, national, state, etc...) and there are no guarantees a project like this gets completed. Since I'm fairly certain this is in different phases with regards to the construction, what's stopping them from scrapping the rest of the plan once the arena is built? I'm sure they would be this penalty and that penalty but we all know things are more complicated than that and most likely nothing would happen.

Along with that, the deal changed once, it can change again. Groups are always pressuring governments to pay more and they're going to try and get as much as they can even after the deal is "final"

The other main question is about the economics of the whole situation. Firstly is that, to my knowledge, we still don't know what role the Wisconsin Public Finance Authority has to do with all of this. Are they still involved? Is it with the team operations or the arena/district project? Unless the answer is "no they're not involved", the little we do know about them is that anyone doing business with them should be very wary based on public reports.

To continue that theme, I will reiterate that the economics do not make sense. We know without a shadow of a doubt that the team is hundreds of millions of dollars in debt. We know that they will continue to increase that debt because of poor economic conditions over the next 4-5 years and even in a new arena. That's on top of the money it's going to cost to actually build the arena and entertainment district. Even then, if we looks at teams like the ones in California and Texas, the hockey team itself are most likely just going to come to breaking even plus or minus a few million (this is team itself not the arena or the owner).

Even resale value the debt load imo makes it a highly unattractive asset.

So again, I ask for someone to make sense of the economics of it all. By the way, I've been asking these questions for years and can back it up with my post history though that's for others I'm pretty sure you TL are aware of me asking these questions.

Thank you.

Have you seen the documentation that Tempe posted to its site?. It includes everything legally made public, including the correspondence between Tempe, the Coyotes and Phoenix/Sky Harbor.

It includes the full DDA and summaries of the project (as in who is paying for what)
 

GindyDraws

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Where's that popcorn?

Llama hates everything Coyote so he wants them to fall apart and be forced to leave..(I'd like to know why such a personal vendetta)

Legend had emotional involvement in the team staying, which depends Meruelo, so he feels a need to support him at all costs.

Neither has much influence on what will actually happen.
Let's be realistic; everyone who wants the f***ing arena built only wants it built because they like hockey in Arizona and want to keep the Coyotes there, which plays into the politicians who don't want to become the villains who get smeared as "the ones who made the Coyotes leave" and the sports team owners who, let's be realistic, are the only ones who stand to benefit from the construction as they will request all sorts of kickbacks and tax concessions so the city and state are effectively giving millions annually to the private sector in profits while being responsible for upkeep and operations.

Meanwhile, every single time, every anti-stadium movement is shouted down and demonized for being buzzkills and hating civic pride despite the fact that arenas, while nice and sometimes extremely important if you're replacing an ancient venue like in Baltimore or Richmond, doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you literally have a bunch of arenas in the area already or having more important financial matters to attend to. All to support a team that's never been successful, but apparently, if we build them this arena this time, they'll suddenly be competitive for the Stanley Cup, I swear! Despite evidence for decades that sporting arenas aren't these magnets for development or jobs, we're told always that pitch, and people go gaga for it.
 
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LPHabsFan

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Let's be realistic; everyone who wants the f***ing arena built only wants it built because they like hockey in Arizona and want to keep the Coyotes there, which plays into the politicians who don't want to become the villains who get smeared as "the ones who made the Coyotes leave" and the sports team owners who, let's be realistic, are the only ones who stand to benefit from the construction as they will request all sorts of kickbacks and tax concessions so the city and state are effectively giving millions annually to the private sector in profits while being responsible for upkeep and operations.

Meanwhile, every single time, every anti-stadium movement is shouted down and demonized for being buzzkills and hating civic pride despite the fact that arenas, while nice and sometimes extremely important if you're replacing an ancient venue like in Baltimore or Richmond, doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you literally have a bunch of arenas in the area already or having more important financial matters to attend to. All to support a team that's never been successful, but apparently, if we build them this arena this time, they'll suddenly be competitive for the Stanley Cup, I swear! Despite evidence for decades that sporting arenas aren't these magnets for development or jobs, we're told always that pitch, and people go gaga for it.
You had us up until the end. While there have certainly been times where some things were shut down due to "not being megathread" worthy, the last part is simply not true.
 
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TheLegend

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I didn't mean to suggest that deep of emotional involvement. Rather, it seems to me that the reality of Meruelo's business practices cannot actually be discerned, because we have no way of looking.

Llama has one set of interpretations, you have another. Each of you have chosen them for reasons which contain emotion.

That's all. As I've often said, it's not worth arguing about because it's not going to affect the outcome.

Fair enough...

But you should notice I've been sticking to bringing up the actual documents themselves, rather than running out on the internet looking for any comments from people on the outside offering up their "expertise" on the deal. In particular the ones with their own motivations.

I also expect the rhetoric to heat up even further in the coming weeks as the vote gets closer.
 

Stumbledore

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No answers for, as in??

(Yeah it’s a loaded question)

I hardly seen anyone talk about the actual documents of the deal itself. This is where I miss someone like 1CasualFan who can translate the legalese contained within them.
I can translate but then I'd have to bill you for my time.
 
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TheLegend

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Just joking. Retired from my practice 9 years ago and was never called to the Arizona bar.
I knew you were joking. CF isn’t in the AZ bar either. I believe he’s out of CA and just winters here usually for spring trading which is coming up.

Just a general interpretation of the legalese is enough.
 

sawchuk1971

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Jun 16, 2011
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Thank you.

Have you seen the documentation that Tempe posted to its site?. It includes everything legally made public, including the correspondence between Tempe, the Coyotes and Phoenix/Sky Harbor.

It includes the full DDA and summaries of the project (as in who is paying for what)
hello..

do you have the link to that?
 

TheLegend

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TheLegend

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Neither Glendale...nor ASM Global...seems too concerned about the possible arena in Tempe...

Glendale approves new lease-purchase agreement for Desert Diamond Arena

Source: www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2023/02/15/glendale-desert-diamond-arena-asm-global.html

Tacking on another $40 million to the $130 million or so they're estimated to still owe in bond payments shouldn't be a problem, right??

At this point.... it's irrelevant what Glendale does with their arena. They're committed. If they don't do it, it won't meet the current standards required for attracting those "big events".


(BTW.... they preannounced these "upgrades" to the arena over a year ago.)
 

sh724

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Let's be realistic; everyone who wants the f***ing arena built only wants it built because they like hockey in Arizona and want to keep the Coyotes there, which plays into the politicians who don't want to become the villains who get smeared as "the ones who made the Coyotes leave" and the sports team owners who, let's be realistic, are the only ones who stand to benefit from the construction as they will request all sorts of kickbacks and tax concessions so the city and state are effectively giving millions annually to the private sector in profits while being responsible for upkeep and operations.

Meanwhile, every single time, every anti-stadium movement is shouted down and demonized for being buzzkills and hating civic pride despite the fact that arenas, while nice and sometimes extremely important if you're replacing an ancient venue like in Baltimore or Richmond, doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you literally have a bunch of arenas in the area already or having more important financial matters to attend to. All to support a team that's never been successful, but apparently, if we build them this arena this time, they'll suddenly be competitive for the Stanley Cup, I swear! Despite evidence for decades that sporting arenas aren't these magnets for development or jobs, we're told always that pitch, and people go gaga for it.

Umm the Tempe politicians could have just stayed out of it entirely and they would never have been seen as the ones who made the Yotes leave.

The proposed development around TED is all part of the proposal for TED. The land around the arena will be developed by Muerello per the proposal. If the development is not completed the Yotes will not work, this has been discussed ad neauseum
 

TheLegend

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Its paywalled. Can you give the gist.
In reading the Arizona Republic's version.....



- ASM Global signed a new agreement with Glendale to lease the arena from Glendale for 20 years. With an option to buy the arena outright (for $10). Total payments are $33.29 million.

- It saves Glendale the $5 million in operating costs annually it pays ASM now. Plus the $1.5 million in annual capital costs.

- Glendale is still going to sink another $25 million in renovations over the next 3-5 years (ASM will put in $15 million). (Note: this is similar to what Glendale wanted Meruelo to do and still remain a tenant).





IOW.... Glendale is flushing $90-100 million down the drain to walk away. They're gambling that Westgate's growth and a new 3000 room waterpark/resort coming online in late 2023 will bring enough dollars in to cover it.
 

MNNumbers

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In reading the Arizona Republic's version.....



- ASM Global signed a new agreement with Glendale to lease the arena from Glendale for 20 years. With an option to buy the arena outright (for $10). Total payments are $33.29 million.

- It saves Glendale the $5 million in operating costs annually it pays ASM now. Plus the $1.5 million in annual capital costs.

- Glendale is still going to sink another $25 million in renovations over the next 3-5 years (ASM will put in $15 million). (Note: this is similar to what Glendale wanted Meruelo to do and still remain a tenant).





IOW.... Glendale is flushing $90-100 million down the drain to walk away. They're gambling that Westgate's growth and a new 3000 room waterpark/resort coming online in late 2023 will bring enough dollars in to cover it.

Not arguing, but can you walk me through the calculations to arrive at the 90 - 100m? I assume it includes debt service, as well as everything else. Correct?
 

aqib

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In reading the Arizona Republic's version.....



- ASM Global signed a new agreement with Glendale to lease the arena from Glendale for 20 years. With an option to buy the arena outright (for $10). Total payments are $33.29 million.

- It saves Glendale the $5 million in operating costs annually it pays ASM now. Plus the $1.5 million in annual capital costs.

- Glendale is still going to sink another $25 million in renovations over the next 3-5 years (ASM will put in $15 million). (Note: this is similar to what Glendale wanted Meruelo to do and still remain a tenant).





IOW.... Glendale is flushing $90-100 million down the drain to walk away. They're gambling that Westgate's growth and a new 3000 room waterpark/resort coming online in late 2023 will bring enough dollars in to cover it.

So $90-100 million to walk away, they really would have been better off taking Balsillie's $50 million offer because then the net would have been $40-50 million, as opposed to spending $50 million with the NHL for 2 years and who knows how much to IceArizona
 
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Devils 3silverones

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In reading the Arizona Republic's version.....



- ASM Global signed a new agreement with Glendale to lease the arena from Glendale for 20 years. With an option to buy the arena outright (for $10). Total payments are $33.29 million.

- It saves Glendale the $5 million in operating costs annually it pays ASM now. Plus the $1.5 million in annual capital costs.

- Glendale is still going to sink another $25 million in renovations over the next 3-5 years (ASM will put in $15 million). (Note: this is similar to what Glendale wanted Meruelo to do and still remain a tenant).





IOW.... Glendale is flushing $90-100 million down the drain to walk away. They're gambling that Westgate's growth and a new 3000 room waterpark/resort coming online in late 2023 will bring enough dollars in to cover it.
Hello.
Something is off. If other's are in the know, please fill in.
 

TheLegend

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Not arguing, but can you walk me through the calculations to arrive at the 90 - 100m? I assume it includes debt service, as well as everything else. Correct?

That was just a quick estimate in my head.

Yes it includes the debt. Last numbers I recall were they still have between $130-150 million left on the bonds. they have to pay those off no matter what they do.

They'll save 4-5 million on annual payments to ASM since ASM will now lease the arena themselves. But Glendale will still have to keep up some annual cap improvements (it's currently $1.5 million annually).

Glendale claims they will "save" $80 million. But I interpreted it that's overall. Figure in the bond payments, cap improvements, the upcoming remodel, etc, the overall costs of the arena for the next 20 years will run into the $170-190 million range.
 

TheLegend

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So $90-100 million to walk away, they really would have been better off taking Balsillie's $50 million offer because then the net would have been $40-50 million, as opposed to spending $50 million with the NHL for 2 years and who knows how much to IceArizona

20/20 hindsight.

IceArizona lease only lasted a little over year and most of the extra $9 million annually came back, IIRC ($2.5 million or so short)
 

MNNumbers

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How does it come out if you assume the debt service is 'sunk cost'? Then, it seems they are betting that they can do financially better with the sure yhearly money from ASM, correct?
 
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