CXLIII - UPDATED 6/3 - Coyotes arena deal takes next step after Tempe council votes to open negotiations

[aqib]

I tell people to mind their own business when they start getting too emotional about something they have no control over or impact their lives. People getting mad over Coyotes playing in that tiny arena is just silly. Mind your own business and move on with your lives instead of getting mad about this nonsense, is all.

Canada is not some small country where people can drive to one point to another. How does Hamilton not getting a team impact someone who lives in Alberta or Manitoba? Border is nothing more than an imaginary line. Caring about Hamilton getting a team because they happened to be above that line when you can;t even drive there is just craziness.

And I assure you no Americans ever cared about Expos being in Montreal. In fact a lot of Yanks want Montreal Expos back. Even if there are lunatics like that its probably a lot less than hockey fans who want all southern teams moving up north (not necessarily to Canada or are Canadians).

If they are merely disagreeing its fine. But they are actively trying to tell billionaires they are wrong and insisting they know better at making money. Just a ridiculous behavior. I don't trust billionaires for anything other than making money. If they see money in QC and Hamilton, they would have a team. Its that simple.

The only one getting emotional is you. You're the only one trying to tell people not to talk about topics that interest them. People are annoyed that American franchises get so many lifelines while Canadian teams sneeze and the move talk starts. The Oilers arena negotiations hit a snag then all of a sudden Gretzky the owner are in Seattle who didn't even have an arena deal in place. Flames arena has issues and Houston suddenly has new life even though the owner has said he won't pay the going rate for an NHL team.

Two more teams in Canada would mean more rivalries, more topics for us to discuss, more games to go to, etc. Even if you live in Alberta it would be more fun to have a game against the revived Nordiques or Hamilton then Anaheim or Arizona. As an Oilers fan living in the Toronto area I would love a team in Hamilton or a second Toronto team so that I would have an easier time seeing the Oilers when they are in town or simply just being able to take the family to a random game,

I assure you that you are 100% wrong about Americans and the Expos. I lived in the US most of my life and the vultures were circling over that team for about a decade. I also remember fans rooting against the Jays in the 92 and 93 World Series simply because they were a Canadian team. Similarly there were NBA fans who didn't like the Raptors and Grizzlies being added in 1995. Even after the Grizzlies left ESPN was calling for the Raptors to be relocated saying there was no passion for the game in Canada, despite the fact they were always in the top 10 in attendance.

Yes a billionaire can be wrong. Watch Shark Tank. Mark Cuban gets stuff wrong too.

Your last sentence is beyond ridiculous. When Balsillie was trying to move the Coyotes to Hamilton the NHL conceded that it would be a top 5 revenue team. When he tried to move the Predators he has over 14K season ticket deposits in 2 days. No one doubts the market. The NHL has made the strategic decision that they would rather have teams in markets where hockey isn't already popular to grow the game.

 

[TheLegend]

Your last sentence is beyond ridiculous. When Balsillie was trying to move the Coyotes to Hamilton the NHL conceded that it would be a top 5 revenue team. When he tried to move the Predators he has over 14K season ticket deposits in 2 days. No one doubts the market. The NHL has made the strategic decision that they would rather have teams in markets where hockey isn't already popular to grow the game.

Uh.... that was only part of it.

The bigger part was maintaining control of movement of existing franchises.

If Ballsillie wanted a franchise bad enough he could have proposed coming in with an expansion. A no brainer win win win for everyone right?? But that would have meant it costing him as least twice what he was willing to put out. Now it's different.

As you said.... the NHL viewed Hamilton as a "top 5 market." That would command a huge expansion fee and they (the other owners) weren't about to allow a noob owner coming in on the cheap.

It wasn't really all about "growing the game"..... it was more about protecting existing values.

 

[aqib]

Uh.... that was only part of it.

The bigger part was maintaining control of movement of existing franchises.

If Ballsillie wanted a franchise bad enough he could have proposed coming in with an expansion. A no brainer win win win for everyone right?? But that would have meant it costing him as least twice what he was willing to put out. Now it's different.

As you said.... the NHL viewed Hamilton as a "top 5 market." That would command a huge expansion fee and they (the other owners) weren't about to allow a noob owner coming in on the cheap.

It wasn't really all about "growing the game"..... it was more about protecting existing values.

I mean the NHL did say it in court: Hamilton would be among top five in revenue, NHL admits

As far as why neither Balsillie nor anyone else in Hamilton applied in the 2015-2016 expansion it was pretty obvious the NHL was never going to let Balsillie in no matter what. It was also obvious the league wasn't going to award a team to Hamilton. They had already signaled Vegas was going to get a team and if they were going to do an Eastern Time Zone team it was going to be QC.

As far as "growing the game" goes, that was from Daly. He was asked about a second team in southern ontario and he agreed that it would do well but wouldn't be great "exposure" for the league. I tried to find that article.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

The only one getting emotional is you. You're the only one trying to tell people not to talk about topics that interest them. People are annoyed that American franchises get so many lifelines while Canadian teams sneeze and the move talk starts. The Oilers arena negotiations hit a snag then all of a sudden Gretzky the owner are in Seattle who didn't even have an arena deal in place. Flames arena has issues and Houston suddenly has new life even though the owner has said he won't pay the going rate for an NHL team.

I am an Islanders fan whose team has been constantly been involved in relocation talk. So spare me the lifeline BS. Penguins were rumored to move before they got new arena. Relocation talks happen to every team looking for new arenas, Canadian teams are not the exceptions.

Two more teams in Canada would mean more rivalries, more topics for us to discuss, more games to go to, etc. Even if you live in Alberta it would be more fun to have a game against the revived Nordiques or Hamilton then Anaheim or Arizona. As an Oilers fan living in the Toronto area I would love a team in Hamilton or a second Toronto team so that I would have an easier time seeing the Oilers when they are in town or simply just being able to take the family to a random game,

It would be great for Habs or Sens fans, I will give you that, but why would fans in Alberta care?

I assure you that you are 100% wrong about Americans and the Expos. I lived in the US most of my life and the vultures were circling over that team for about a decade. I also remember fans rooting against the Jays in the 92 and 93 World Series simply because they were a Canadian team. Similarly there were NBA fans who didn't like the Raptors and Grizzlies being added in 1995. Even after the Grizzlies left ESPN was calling for the Raptors to be relocated saying there was no passion for the game in Canada, despite the fact they were always in the top 10 in attendance.

Yes a billionaire can be wrong. Watch Shark Tank. Mark Cuban gets stuff wrong too.

ESPN talking heads advocating for Canadian teams to move does not reflect what average Americans feel about them. ESPN clearly had an agenda for having no Canadian teams. In reality, your average Joe could not care less.

Your last sentence is beyond ridiculous. When Balsillie was trying to move the Coyotes to Hamilton the NHL conceded that it would be a top 5 revenue team. When he tried to move the Predators he has over 14K season ticket deposits in 2 days. No one doubts the market. The NHL has made the strategic decision that they would rather have teams in markets where hockey isn't already popular to grow the game.

If they believed that...they would have a team. Its that simple.

 

[TheLegend]

I mean the NHL did say it in court: Hamilton would be among top five in revenue, NHL admits

As far as why neither Balsillie nor anyone else in Hamilton applied in the 2015-2016 expansion it was pretty obvious the NHL was never going to let Balsillie in no matter what. It was also obvious the league wasn't going to award a team to Hamilton. They had already signaled Vegas was going to get a team and if they were going to do an Eastern Time Zone team it was going to be QC.

As far as "growing the game" goes, that was from Daly. He was asked about a second team in southern ontario and he agreed that it would do well but wouldn't be great "exposure" for the league. I tried to find that article.

I know..... I kinda watched the BK proceedings quite closely.

Bill Daly is on record saying Balsillie would be considered as an owner if he tried coming in through the front door instead of the side window.

Meaning.... if you want Hamilton that bad.... pay the expansion price.

 

[TheLegend]

Gee.... what do ya know....





[edit]

If you apply a little logic here that 50% should not be a surprise.

However it's just one component it the model where they can equal/exceed previous revenues.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I know..... I kinda watched the BK proceedings quite closely.

Bill Daly is on record saying Balsillie would be considered as an owner if he tried coming in through the front door instead of the side window.

Meaning.... if you want Hamilton that bad.... pay the expansion price.

it wasn't just Arizona, it was Nashville for a short time as I recollect....

 

[rojac]

it wasn't just Arizona, it was Nashville for a short time as I recollect....

Balsillie tried to buy the Penguins but refused to agree to keep the team in Pittsburgh for 7 years.

He tried to buy the Predators and without owning the team or having any kind of permission, he collected deposits on season tickets for the Hamilton Predators.

He tried to buy the Coyotes using lawyer Richard Rodier's plan to use bankruptcy rules to get around NHL bylaws. Bankruptcy law allows for contracts to be broken (if approved by the bankruptcy judge). Rodier argued that this ability could be used to override both the NHL owners' rights to approve the sale and the need for an owner moving into another team's territory to pay indemnification rights

And people wonder why the NHL didn't want to work with him?

 

[TheLegend]

Adding the link to Wyshynski's article outlined in the tweet above.

Coyotes: Season ticket revenue up 50% at ASU

The Arizona Coyotes expect to sell out every home game this season at ASU's Mullett Arena, according to team president Xavier A. Gutierrez, who says their season-ticket revenue has surpassed what they were generating in their former home in Glendale.

www.espn.com

Cliff's notes for those who still don't feel like reading it. These details come from Coyotes CEO Xavier Gutierrez)

- Average ticket price is $170. League Average is $154.
- STM revenues so far is 50% higher than any other year in Glendale.
- Mullett Arena has only 20 suites vs 80 at Desert Diamond Arena and the Coyotes sold abound 3/4 of them. So they sold some suites at Mullett as half season packages to bump inventory. All are sold out.
- Coyotes could have sold the arena out completely. But they held some seats back for walk-up/singles to accommodate more fans.
- Coyotes setting aside 400 seats for ASU students ($25-50) and looking at possibly adding another 300 SRO tickets.**
- Coyotes first home game against the Winnipeg Jet will be televised nationally on ESPN+/Hulu.


[**In comparison.... ASU Men's Hockey single tickets went on Ticketmaster today. Reserved seats are $50-75. The Dec 30th game against Boston College had just 184 seats left.]

 

[LPHabsFan]

Adding the link to Wyshynski's article outlined in the tweet above.

Coyotes: Season ticket revenue up 50% at ASU

The Arizona Coyotes expect to sell out every home game this season at ASU's Mullett Arena, according to team president Xavier A. Gutierrez, who says their season-ticket revenue has surpassed what they were generating in their former home in Glendale.

www.espn.com

Cliff's notes for those who still don't feel like reading it. These details come from Coyotes CEO Xavier Gutierrez)

- Average ticket price is $170. League Average is $154.
- STM revenues so far is 50% higher than any other year in Glendale.
- Mullett Arena has only 20 suites vs 80 at Desert Diamond Arena and the Coyotes sold abound 3/4 of them. So they sold some suites at Mullett as half season packages to bump inventory. All are sold out.
- Coyotes could have sold the arena out completely. But they held some seats back for walk-up/singles to accommodate more fans.
- Coyotes setting aside 400 seats for ASU students ($25-50) and looking at possibly adding another 300 SRO tickets.**
- Coyotes first home game against the Winnipeg Jet will be televised nationally on ESPN+/Hulu.


[**In comparison.... ASU Men's Hockey single tickets went on Ticketmaster today. Reserved seats are $50-75. The Dec 30th game against Boston College had just 184 seats left.]

So the questions that come to mind are the following. What were the STH and suite numbers like over the past few years compared to what they're at now? What was the min and max in terms of price for the STH and suites in the last few years compared to now?

So the main question is, is the increase in average price and revenue from STH and all that "positive" stuff he's claiming due to an increase in prices and demand, or is it because they dropped a lot of lower priced STH and suites due to lower availability which simply makes certain isolated numbers look better but the overall picture still horrible?

I'm pretty sure we know which one it is.....

 

[TheLegend]

So the questions that come to mind are the following. What were the STH and suite numbers like over the past few years compared to what they're at now? What was the min and max in terms of price for the STH and suites in the last few years compared to now?

So the main question is, is the increase in average price and revenue from STH and all that "positive" stuff he's claiming due to an increase in prices and demand, or is it because they dropped a lot of lower priced STH and suites due to lower availability which simply makes certain isolated numbers look better but the overall picture still horrible?

I'm pretty sure we know which one it is.....

I’m pretty sure we still don’t know what the entire story is.

The only number that matters is….

Is the overall revenue from playing at Mullett Arena going to equal or possibly exceed what they received playing in Glendale?

How they get there is irrelevant.

 

[stealth1]

What bothers the most about all of this and this pertains to every major sports team in the US. Not only does the team have to be good to fill the stands, the stadium has to be convenient to get to as well. Everything has to be perfect for teams to succeed.

 

[AZDesertKnight]

What bothers the most about all of this and this pertains to every major sports team in the US. Not only does the team have to be good to fill the stands, the stadium has to be convenient to get to as well. Everything has to be perfect for teams to succeed.

Teams are never ALWAYS good.

You need to be accessible to the fanbase and corporate partners to close the gap + external revenues when you suck.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Gee.... what do ya know....





[edit]

If you apply a little logic here that 50% should not be a surprise.

However it's just one component it the model where they can equal/exceed previous revenues.

Very interesting. I always kind of thought they'd do okay at ASU (because hardly anyone was going in Glendale anyways), but a 50% increase is unexpected.

 

[MNNumbers]

I'd like to pour a little cold water on the 50% figure. I can believe that they will be equal to GRA numbers. I could even believe that ticket revenue would be higher. 50% higher probably says more about how bad it was at GRA than it does about how good it might be at Mullett.

The other thing is...this is a news release from the team, who has every incentive to choose the numbers for comparison which give them the best spin. To think they would be putting out honest figures is to believe that the moon is green cheese. No sports organization is going to put out the honest numbers here. They are totally in control and can make it look the way they want to.

Which really says nothing, except that the Yotes are trying to position themselves to the be "next in thing" in Phoenix. Who would do anything else? No one.

What their bottom line is...really is Meruelo's business and no one else's. How much Tempe actually puts in is a different question.

 

[TheLegend]

I'd like to pour a little cold water on the 50% figure. I can believe that they will be equal to GRA numbers. I could even believe that ticket revenue would be higher. 50% higher probably says more about how bad it was at GRA than it does about how good it might be at Mullett.

The other thing is...this is a news release from the team, who has every incentive to choose the numbers for comparison which give them the best spin. To think they would be putting out honest figures is to believe that the moon is green cheese. No sports organization is going to put out the honest numbers here. They are totally in control and can make it look the way they want to.

Which really says nothing, except that the Yotes are trying to position themselves to the be "next in thing" in Phoenix. Who would do anything else? No one.

What their bottom line is...really is Meruelo's business and no one else's. How much Tempe actually puts in is a different question.

Fair point… You can dump a truckload of ice on it if you like. It’s been in the high 100’s here and we could use it.

The 50% increase is relative to just STM revenue. Doesn’t include a lot of other things but it’s still points towards the notion they just might achieve the same overall revenues they got at GRA (which is being renamed to Desert Diamond Arena soon)

The only question after that is if TED is approved and becomes a reality can they scale it up going from 4700 seats to 16,000?

 

[Llama19]

Arizona Coyotes gave Glendale a raw deal. And Tempe wants to repeat it?

To quote:

"The Coyotes make sure to repeatedly tout the estimated 6,900 permanent jobs and the $215 million in net new taxes (over 30 years) the project would bring to Tempe.

What they don’t share so openly is that they’re also requesting either a 30-year and an 8-year government property lease excise tax (GPLET), to the tune of more than $649 million in tax abatements, or a 65-year and an 8-year GPLET that would total over $1.1 billion in tax abatements."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2022/09/09/arizona-coyotes-entertainment-district-raw-deal-tempe/8017122001/

 

[TheLegend]

Local state politician who’s up for reelection this fall and has held an anti-all rich guys platform since day one suddenly has concerns.

(Edit). I know some of you will say I’m just being the good Coyotes fan boy here, but Ms. Salman has had plenty of time to come forward with her narrative the past few months and the fact she’s using articles from Katie Strang at The Athletic as her main character argument without even offering an alternative to what should be developed on that site and providing any virtues as to building “low cost housing” on it she advocates so much for.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

..... has held an anti-all rich guys platform since day one....

not unlike soooo many on here , except of course the ones who own their own favorite teams, maybe...*they're* doing good things for hockey

 

[GhostofTommyBolin]

I assure you that you are 100% wrong about Americans and the Expos. I lived in the US most of my life and the vultures were circling over that team for about a decade. I also remember fans rooting against the Jays in the 92 and 93 World Series simply because they were a Canadian team. Similarly there were NBA fans who didn't like the Raptors and Grizzlies being added in 1995. Even after the Grizzlies left ESPN was calling for the Raptors to be relocated saying there was no passion for the game in Canada, despite the fact they were always in the top 10 in attendance.

No exaggeration here; every baseball fan I know(I'm 49 years old and American, for context) would love to see the Expos come back and play in Montreal again. In fact, you can have the Rays or the Marlins. Take your pick. No American fans give two shits if a Canadian team wins a World Series, Stanley Cup, or NBA championship. The only team I don't want to see win anything is the Leafs because I'm a Wings fan and the Leafs can all eat a turd sandwich.

 

[aqib]

1) I am an Islanders fan whose team has been constantly been involved in relocation talk. So spare me the lifeline BS. Penguins were rumored to move before they got new arena. Relocation talks happen to every team looking for new arenas, Canadian teams are not the exceptions.



2) It would be great for Habs or Sens fans, I will give you that, but why would fans in Alberta care?


3) ESPN talking heads advocating for Canadian teams to move does not reflect what average Americans feel about them. ESPN clearly had an agenda for having no Canadian teams. In reality, your average Joe could not care less.


4) If they believed that...they would have a team. Its that simple.

I added the numbers to make my response easier to follow. First let put this disclaimer out there. Even though I am in Canada now. I am a dual citizen, and actually lived the majority of my life in the US, and I mostly grew up in the NYC area (junior high, high school, undergrad, and grad school). So when I say that Americans didn't like the Jays winning the World Series, its not something I read. Its something I experienced first hand as a Jays fan living in NY. Same with the resistance to the NBA expanding to Canada in 1995. Heard it first hand (the first time was actually during a break at diversity training).

1) The Islanders were never a threat to move. From Spano, to Gluckstern/Milstein, to Kumar/Wang, to just Wang, to the current guys. It was literally never on the table. The TV deal alone keeps them there. Through all those ownership transitions I don't remember any offers from out of town buyers. I don't remember any of the owners even courting other cities. What I do remember is one of the early renderings of what became CitiField involved a retractable roof that would make it capable of being an arena as well, and Barclays originally being a purely dual purpose arena. I also recall Wang trying to buy the Nets and take them out the Island so that he would have more leverage to negotiate a deal. Yes he did do a preseason game in KC but that still wasn't a remote possibility. No one was walking away from that TV money. They even spelled out in the 30-for-30 Big Shot that Spano extending the TV deal kept the team there. As for every team experiencing this, call me when the league takes over ownership of a Canadian team to keep them in place.

2) Many Canadians root for the last Canadian team standing after their team is eliminated from the playoffs. Especially if its not their primary rival (Flames/Oilers, Habs/Leafs) I rooted for Montreal when they were in the finals, I would do the same for QC or Hamilton,

3) Again, back to my disclaimer. Heard this a lot. Talking heads say whatever gets them clicks, retweets, etc. Nationalism sells in America.

4) So are you saying that the NHL lied when they said how much revenue Hamilton would generate? You often say that us non-billionaires should never tell billionaires how to make money. Well 2 different billionaires tried to get teams to Hamilton. Even Tom Gaglardi tried to move a team to Hamilton before buying the Stars.

 

[TheLegend]

3) Again, back to my disclaimer. Heard this a lot. Talking heads say whatever gets them clicks, retweets, etc. Nationalism sells in America.

But not in Canada, of course.

 

[Ciao]

Excuse me, I'm looking for the Coyotes arena thread. Has anyone seen it?

 

[TheLegend]

Single game ticket sales opened up yesterday. So just for fun today I went to Ticketmaster to check on what seats are still available. Plus check on what single game prices compare to the STM.

Aside from what they held back for ASU students, about 85-90% of the arena is sold.

Most tickets are running between $245-285. On the glass behind the benches and penalty boxes they run $695.

Bleacher seating (ASU seating) is going at $157-175. Some people are trying to resale those at over twice that.

YMMV

 

[Cynicaps]

I've been in the Phoenix area the last few days and on a tangent given how Sky Harbor seems to think that any building in Tempe will mess up flight patterns I'm amazed that they were fine having Footprint and Chase being built over flight paths about the same distance the other direction.

Was there any objection from Sky Harbor when AWA/BOB were built or is Tempe being a different city giving them extra scrutiny that doesn't happen in Phoenix proper?