Proposal: Curtis Lazar for Tobias Rieder

[rt]

Tobias Rieder is 23 years old. He has two NHL seasons under his belt.
1. 21pts
2. 37pts

Curtis Lazar is 21 years old. He has two NHL seasons under his belt.
1. 15pts
2. 20pts

Both players are trusted PKers on their respective clubs.

Rieder is rumored to be asking for less than 3m per season but at least 500kay more per year than Arizona is offering.

He shouldn't break the bank, but he'll certainly cost more than Lazar next season.

Lazar also has the versatility of possibly playing center at some point.

Rieder is definitely a little more proven, though. And should be no worse than a 40-45pt NHL winger with PK ability.

We would hope Lazar has that same upside or better, but he hasn't shown it year (though he is two years younger so it's not apples to apples).

As for the cash:

http://arizonasports.com/story/750850/coyotes-notes-coyotes-rieder-seeks-2-year-deal/

Talks between the Coyotes and restricted free agent Tobias Rieder are ongoing, but it does not appear the sides are any closer to a deal.

A league source said Tuesday that Rieder’s camp is now looking for a two-year deal worth an average annual value of $2.75 million, but the Coyotes do not appear interested in such a deal. Rieder’s camp has also floated the ideas of a three-year deal (also with a $2.75 million AAV), and a four-year deal with an AAV of $3 million.

The same source said it is not true that Rieder’s camp initially asked for a deal with an AAV comparable to Nazem Kadri’s current $4.5 AAV with Toronto, as Arizona Sports previously reported.

Kadri’s complete contract history was just one of several used in an analytical breakdown of comparables. Also included on that list were players such as Buffalo’s Evander Kane and Tyler Ennis, Dallas’ Cody Eakin, Los Angeles’ Tyler Toffoli, Minnesota’s Charlie Coyle, Nino Niederreiter and Mikael Granlund, Columbus’s Boone Jenner, Detroit’s Tomas Tatar, Carolina’s Elias Lindholm, the Rangers’ Mika Zibanejad, Edmonton’s Nail Yakupov and the Islanders Brock Nelson.

Arizona Sports reported previously that the Coyotes would likely offer somewhere between $2 million and $2.3 million per year on a two-year deal, and closer to $2.5 million on a three-year deal.

Craig Morgan is basically the mouthpiece for the organization. He's fed directly from Coyotes management.

If Sens fans want to even cash out a bit, I'd be happy to take Borowiecki off their hands. I'd add a mid-round pick, too, if necessary. Something to help make up for that 2nd rounder lost in the Brassard deal. How about whichever 3rd we don't have to give to Florida in '17 (either the AZ 3rd or the DET 3rd [previously acquired in the Letunov to SJS deal] as a part of the Lawson Crouse deal?

So...

To ARI:
Lazar
Borowiecki

To OTT:
Rieder
'17 3rd

Feel free to flame and bash.

Click to read more...

 

[LordNeverLose]

I imagine OTT accepts

 

[rt]

I imagine OTT accepts

Do they require the Borowiecki for '17 3rd part, do you think?

 

[Clamshells]

Do they require the Borowiecki for '17 3rd part, do you think?

I'd take the deal for Ottawa, with or without the Boro/3rd.

I think the money issue is overblown. The team has shown it's willing to spend money when there's a definite net gain in value to the team over the additional costs. If Reider was still looking for the Kadri money, that would be the deal breaker more than anything else. At 2.75 to 3 mill, I'd be happy with that if I were Ottawa.

Ottawa actually needs a better defenceman than Boro in that 3rd LD spot to hold that pair better, so if Ottawa could get a UFA replacement (like uhh Grossmann or something idk??) then absolutely take him for a 3rd. It changes the whole money aspect, but again, I don't put as much weight to it as other Sens fans would.

 

[Uchiha]

Do they require the Borowiecki for '17 3rd part, do you think?

Borowiecki has negative value. You can have him for free. As for Lazar & Reider I think that's a good deal. Lazar player better at centre and can be your 3rd C

 

[BurgoShark]

Tobias Rieder is 23 years old. He has two NHL seasons under his belt.
1. 21pts
2. 37pts

Curtis Lazar is 21 years old. He has two NHL seasons under his belt.
1. 15pts
2. 20pts

Both players are trusted PKers on their respective clubs.

So...

To ARI:
Lazar
Borowiecki

To OTT:
Rieder
'17 3rd

Feel free to flame and bash.

Good offer. Is Rieder primarily LW or RW?

Lazar's best shot to make the team this year is as a 3RW, so if they don't like what he brings in that position, swapping for a young player who can slot straight in to that spot and notch 10-15 goals would be considered an upgrade.

Rieder-Pageau would be pretty sweet to watch on the PK.

 

[rt]

Rieder had played primarily LW. He should be able to play RW if required. He's done some of that.

 

[rt]

Borowiecki has negative value. You can have him for free. As for Lazar & Reider I think that's a good deal. Lazar player better at centre and can be your 3rd C

I realized he doesn't hold any value, which is why I offered a good pick. It's supposed to entice the closing of the deal.

 

[TrueGrit]

Lazar and Boro for Rieder? Done.

 

[sens613]

I would be all over this deal as a sens fan. I don't see much upside in Lazar personally but love his motor and attitude.

 

[IranCondraAffair]

Not a bad proposal.

Getting rid of Borowiecki would be alright since it would open up more options for Ottawa on defense, but only if it saves money. In total, this deal doesn't save money.

Lazar is not the piece to move. He is going to break out offensively in addition to what he can already do defensively. I did a lengthy write-up on the Sens board. Reider is a fine piece but he costs more (which Ottawa can't afford).

From my perspective, the deal doesn't help Ottawa much. Even assuming Borowiecki is redundant with Claesson graduating plus competition from Chabot, he provides depth. Losing him for a pick is fine, but not at the expense of Lazar.

Lazar for Reider costs too much money for Ottawa and won't provide any better play from the #3 RW slot. I see Lazar as having a lot more depth to his game as well.

 

[TT1]

yup i'd take this deal

 

[Jormungandr]

No interest in this deal.

 

[Benjamin]

Sens pass. That money is better used elsewhere during the next few years. Sens are going to be tight against the cap in 3 years. Taking on Reider will be a big mistake.

 

[rt]

From the article in the OP:

... Rieder’s camp is now looking for a two-year deal worth an average annual value of $2.75 million...

...the Coyotes would likely offer somewhere between $2 million and $2.3 million per year on a two-year deal, and closer to $2.5 million...

We can guess that the problem in getting a two year deal worked out has been that the Coyotes aren't budging from 4.5 total (2.25 per) and the Rieder camp won't budge from 5.5 total (2.75per).

There's a logical compromise, here. Especially if he's traded. He's not going to hold-out from a new team and force a 2nd trade. The numbers are clearly 2yrs, 5mil, 2.5per for Ottawa.

Lazar is owed 833k in salary and 360k in bonus this season, for 1.2(ish) total. He's RFA in the Summer. Borowiecki is owed 1.1 for this season and 1.1 next season, then he's UFA.

That's 2.3mil for the pair this year and 1.1 for Borowiecki next year plus whatever deal Lazar gets. If you're hopeful about Lazar's progression, you have to expect he's in for a raise. Can we say he'll earn at least 300k more in the first year of his 2nd contract than he did in the last year of his 1st contract? 1.5mil?

Rieder: (16/17) 2.7m, (17/18) 2.7m
OttPair: (16/17) 2.3m, (17/18) 2.6m

That's -400k in year 1 and -100k in year 2 for a total of -500kay - are those the margins Ottawa is truly working in? Down to half a million bucks spread out over two years?

 

[rt]

^ I can see declining the deal from an Ottawa perspective if you think Lazar will be at least as good as Rieder within the next two seasons. But to say no from a cash perspective is a little far-fetched, I think.

From an Arizona standpoint, I don't think Rieder is done progressing. I don't think Lazar will catch up until at least four seasons from now. I'm okay with that, though, because of the contract dispute and the fact that we aren't making deals like Zibanejad for Brassard, right now. We're making deals like Datsyuk+Chychrun and Bolland+Crouse and hoarding all of the young assets we can get our hands on. So from that perspective, Rieder for Lazar makes sense, even if it's probably not going to be a net positive for us until at least 2019.

 

[_Del_]

Or we could just, you know, sign Rieder at his number instead of paying nearly the same amount of money for Lazar and Borowiecki, and not have to hope that Lazar fits and progresses.
And I say this taking nothing away from Lazar who I'm a big fan of (I'm pretty sure I'm on the record somewhere as preferring Lazar to Domi at 12 ov- oops). It's just that Rieder is already that player at the NHL level and is only 23.
Letting Rieder go over half a million dollars annually for Lazar and borowiecki just to prove some sort of point seems completely unnecessary. If it had been true he was asking for 4M, etc, then sure, but the flipside is at 4M noone else is going to offer much. Under 3M annually for a 35-45 point winger with a tenacious two-way game represents pretty good value to every team in the league, including the Coyotes.

 

[Benjamin]

^ I can see declining the deal from an Ottawa perspective if you think Lazar will be at least as good as Rieder within the next two seasons. But to say no from a cash perspective is a little far-fetched, I think.

From an Arizona standpoint, I don't think Rieder is done progressing. I don't think Lazar will catch up until at least four seasons from now. I'm okay with that, though, because of the contract dispute and the fact that we aren't making deals like Zibanejad for Brassard, right now. We're making deals like Datsyuk+Chychrun and Bolland+Crouse and hoarding all of the young assets we can get our hands on. So from that perspective, Rieder for Lazar makes sense, even if it's probably not going to be a net positive for us until at least 2019.

I think Lazar will be a sub 3mil player for the next 5 years or so. Reider will want want 4mil+ again after his bridge deal he's yet to sign.

 

[rt]

I think Lazar will be a sub 3mil player for the next 5 years or so. Reider will want want 4mil+ again after his bridge deal he's yet to sign.

My hopes for Rieder are pretty high. I don't think he's ever going to be the kind of player that commands that kind of payment.

 

[rt]

Under 3M annually for a 35-45 point winger with a tenacious two-way game represents pretty good value to every team in the league, including the Coyotes.

I agree. This is a gamble that Lazar can get there, too, while maybe being a better fit as a RHS W/C. It's most definitely a gamble. One I'm more comfortable with since acquiring Lawson Crouse for two 3rd round picks. Before that trade, I'd never consider this one.

 

[Benjamin]

My hopes for Rieder are pretty high. I don't think he's ever going to be the kind of player that commands that kind of payment.

You think he can be good but wont be a 4mil+ player?

Even if after inevitable 2 year contract, he's going to want 4mil+, right? Didn't he just want like 4mil a few months ago?

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I think the Senators management is higher on Lazar than most fans on this board. He's a 17th overall pick, not a top 5 pick. Given his supposed leadership qualities, if he develops into a solid middle 6 centre or right winger with hashtagintangibles, I think they'll be happy with him.

If Rieder was a right handed right winger instead of left, it might make the trade more tempting because Ottawa's depth among right handed forwards isn't very good.

Not to harp on the dreaded INTERNAL BUDGET but at 3M vs Lazar at possibly 1M for the next few seasons (look at Pageau's bridge, and Pageau was more successful than Lazar at that point in his career), does Rieder improve Ottawa's bottom 6 enough to merit that extra money spent? Is his upside great enough?

Not that the trade is that out there, but if Rieder was right handed, it would make this trade significantly more plausible.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I think Lazar will be a sub 3mil player for the next 5 years or so. Reider will want want 4mil+ again after his bridge deal he's yet to sign.

Sens have a habit of signing dirt cheap bridge deals with players coming off of their ELCs lately (Pageau 900k, Zibanejad 2.1M, Stone 3.5M, Ceci 2.75M).

Lazar has a better resume than Pageau did at the time of his extension, but one that is significantly less than Zibanejad's. Unless they decide on a really long term deal, it is fair to predict that including the current year left on his contract Lazar will probably cost in the 1M-1.5M range for the next 3 or so seasons.

If Rieder is asking for 2.5M-3M on a bridge deal right now, he is going to cost double-triple the amount that Lazar will during that time period. Does his upside justify this? Does he bring enough to Ottawa's bottom 6 compared to Lazar to justify this?

Assuming it is actually available, that's money that could be used towards upgrading the bottom pairing defense when an opportunity to trade for someone comes up. That is a much more pressing need for the Senators over the next season or two than upgrading Lazar to Rieder.

Borowiecki is owed 1.1 for this season and 1.1 next season, then he's UFA.

This doesn't save Ottawa any real money. They need a replacement player for Boro, so the real savings is only about 300k, and as down on Boro most Sens fans on this board seem to be, would they rather have Michael "brick skates" Kostka in his spot just to save 300k?

So if Rieder is asking for 2.75 and won't budge, or in your scenario he meets half way at 2.5, the savings from ditching Boro still make him 2.3M compared to Lazar at 1.2M (assuming he hits his bonuses) or 800k (no signing bonus this year contract slide) if he doesn't.

Unless Lazar breaks out this year which would be a good problem to his, his bridge will be DIRT cheap like all of Ottawa's other bridges. Strictly from a financial point of view, there is no way to argue that this would make sense for Ottawa.

Now without all the moving Boro baloney since that makes zero sense for Ottawa. We're talking about 800k-1.2M this year vs 2.5-2.75M this year. So as much as almost 2M in added salary. I am no expert on Rieder, so I'll let other people debate whether he is worth potentially adding 2M in salary this year when Ottawa has a budget and still needs an improvement to their bottom 6. But that is the facts financially about this trade. There is no other way to spin it. Ottawa takes on almost 2M in added salary for a bottom 6 player if they take on Rieder.

 

[rt]

You think he can be good but wont be a 4mil+ player?

Even if after inevitable 2 year contract, he's going to want 4mil+, right? Didn't he just want like 4mil a few months ago?

Yes. I think he'll be quite good. But not so good that he gets more than 4m avg on an RFA deal in two years. I don't think either Rieder or Lazar are 60pt players.

 

[IranCondraAffair]

^ I can see declining the deal from an Ottawa perspective if you think Lazar will be at least as good as Rieder within the next two seasons. But to say no from a cash perspective is a little far-fetched, I think.

From an Arizona standpoint, I don't think Rieder is done progressing. I don't think Lazar will catch up until at least four seasons from now. I'm okay with that, though, because of the contract dispute and the fact that we aren't making deals like Zibanejad for Brassard, right now. We're making deals like Datsyuk+Chychrun and Bolland+Crouse and hoarding all of the young assets we can get our hands on. So from that perspective, Rieder for Lazar makes sense, even if it's probably not going to be a net positive for us until at least 2019.

Why not from a cash perspective?

As another poster already mentioned, Borowieciki is filling a hole right now that needs to be filled regardless. Ottawa needs 7 defensemen. Even if you replace Claesson + Borowiecki with Claesson + Chabot, Ottawa saves, what? 200k? Hardly a big difference in salary and possible a big difference in "one-ice play" Definitely wont make up the larger salary difference between Lazar and Reider salary-wise. Especially if you aren't among those convinced Reider will be significantly better than Lazar next season (which i don't think is a given)

If anything, Fans want to UPGRADE Borowiecki's position with more money, not get rid of him to save money. Fans want to get rid of Boro's 1.1 million so they can use the extra budget space + Boro's money to get one of the purportedly "cheap" UFA left side defensemen out there. Ottawa might have up to 2+ million in extra budget space for an upgrade even without a trade.