Crosby's career goalscoring legacy

[daver]

Just passed Dino Ciccarelli for #19 all-time. He has the #10 GPG among the players above him.

During his era, he is #2 in goals and #3 in GPG among the Top 10 goalscorers. He is #3 in playoff goals.

Based on domination of his era peers, he is more impressive than players like Robataille, Yzerman and Andreychuk who all played in higher scoring eras.

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[Staniowski]

Crosby's a great goal-scorer. We usually don't think of him as one of the best ever (and, in some ways, he isn't), but he really is an all-time great. He can score in a variety of ways, but he's especially good at "thinking on the spot". And he scores a lot of goals that way. He plays the game on a higher plane than just about everybody else, and this gives him time to think, to adjust, to adapt, and he has always done this very effectively.

Even though I don't really think of Crosby as a goal-scorer per se, and similarly I don't think of him as a playmaker, he's actually great at both. How many players, ever, are as good at both combined? Hardly anybody.

I think with Crosby, he's so good at almost everything, and his instincts and hockey sense and active thinking are so elite, that we don't always notice how great he is at individual skills, whereas it's easier to recognize the particular skills of other players who have more limited all-around talent.

You can always count on Crosby to show up and be a real threat to score goals.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Assuming he's healthy and plays a few more years he'll likely get into the upper 600's or even reach 700, but that # really does need to come with an * as does his counting stats (and awards) in general. He missed so much of his absolute prime that it really skews his greatness, at least to some degree. His VsX (across the board) is absolutely suppressed due to significant time missed.

His backhand, his peers have supported this kind of statement, is among the best ever, certainly amongst modern era players.

People forget in this age of instant gratification, how utterly dominant he was in 2010-11 when he was pacing for 64 goals halfway through the year (32 in 41). Now, we can debate where he would have ended up with another 41 games, but there is little doubt he would have at least pushed 60 (in a lower scoring era than we see today mind you), and even if he had not reached that number, would have still ran away with a 3rd Rocket, Ross, MVP, etc.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't want to overstate it because he can't really score from distance like traditionally great scorers, but he did lead the league in goals on a dare, effectively haha

 

[Midnight Judges]

If Ovechkin didn't exist, Crosby would be regarded much higher as a goal scorer.

Ovechkin has 44% more goals in the same number of seasons with 100% career overlap. Maybe that's just bad luck for Crosby - that he entered the NHL at the same time as the obvious best and greatest goal scorer ever.

 

[DitchMarner]

He's definitely better than guys like Ciccarelli, Gartner and Andreychuk, but I don't know if he's better than Robitaille and Yzerman.

Goal scoring was basically Robitaille's thing. He was top ten nine times (much more often than Crosby), although he was never top three while Crosby had led the League twice. Yzerman placed second in goals twice, third once and sixth three times (six top sixes compared to two for Crosby).

Crosby is probably about on par with Iginla. He's not in the cluster of the absolute best and greatest at goal scoring (Lemieux, Gretzky, Howe, the Hulls, Bossy, Ovechkin, M. Richard, Esposito).

Aside from those players, I think Matthews is in a higher tier as well and that will be clearer as his career advances. I'd say Stamkos is a better and greater goal scorer than Crosby. Bure was better at the skill, but maybe Crosby beats him in terms of greatness.

Just focusing on the last 40 or so years, you can argue about where he belongs among players like Selanne, Jagr, the aforementioned Robitaille and Yzerman, Kovalchuk, Pastrnak, Iginla, Draisaitl and probably McDavid by the time he's done.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

He'll have a great career total but he wasn't a great goal scorer

 

[MadLuke]

We need to watch out about during their career scoring number type of stats, specially for people that started in 06 and were good for a very long time.

Mike Gartner was second in goals during his career and second to the great one alone, score more goals than Lemieux and Yzerman.

But it is still an impressive feat for both, breaking it down in 5 years or so to complete the picture make it more telling about how good they were at scoring goal versus other goal scorer.

Post in thread 'Where do you place Ovechkin on your personal list of the greatest players of all time?'

Sep 8, 2023

Crosby is arguably the 2nd greatest (using some of the criteria to rate OV as the possibly the "greatest goalscorer ever") goalscorer of his era

I know this is to show the technic of looking at raw value starting at a player first year can be misleading.

so in that spirit if we look in 5 years windows:

06-11
Crosby his 5th in goals, like a Staal close to Iginla, 4th in goal per game,
Ovy: .63
Kovalchuck: .55
Gaborik: .54
Crosby: .52
Heatley: .51
Stamkos: .49

12-17
crosby again a 4th in goal per game
Stamkos: .59
Ovy: .58
Malin: .48
Crosby: .45
Pacioretty/P.Kane: .43

18-23
30th...

• MadLuke

• 

goal per games, 5 years windows during Crosby career:

06-11
Ovy.......: .63
Kovalchuck: .55
Gaborik...: .54
Crosby....: .52
Heatley...: .51
Stamkos...: .49

12-17
Stamkos: .59
Ovy....: .58
Malkin.: .48
Crosby.: .45
Pacioretty/P.Kane: .43

18-24
~24 in gpg among the 250 game or more like Laine-Marchand-Panarin , eichel or Tavares level. of scoring.

During his prime outside Ovechkin, prime Kovalchuck and Stamkos were better than him, we cna imagine Iginla would have been, but not that many that scored more goals over a significant period of time, maybe Heatley peaked the same, Malkin.

To note about the above, 06-11 he was first among Canadians goal scorer pace, second in 12-17, that could match a Beliveau type of performance vs Canadian player of his time.

A bit like Jagr (who was third all time in goals scored until Ovechkin passed them and one of the very best ever at putting puck in nets) it is not something people would necessarily think about when talking about Crosby, will see, binary thinking and 2 time Rocket winner vs 0 for Jagr will maybe paint perception of people in the future.

 

[daver]

He's definitely better than guys like Ciccarelli, Gartner and Andreychuk, but I don't know if he's better than Robitaille and Yzerman.

Goal scoring was basically Robitaille's thing. He was top ten nine times (much more often than Crosby), although he was never top three while Crosby had led the League twice. Yzerman placed second in goals twice, third once and sixth three times (six top sixes compared to two for Crosby).

The OP is meant to be more of an interesting realization. I was surprised his career GPG was that high in relation to the players around him. I don't think he loses any ground as an overall player or in terms of his legacy to those immediately ahead of him because they were better "goalscorers".

It seems to be more of a longevity thing.

In his last four seasons, season #17 (age 34) to season # 20 (age 37) in his career, Crosby is 25th in goals. Robitaille was 38th in goals from age 34 to 37 (Season # 14 to # 17) and Yzerman was 60th in goals from age 34 to 36 (Season #17 to #19).

But an argument can be made that his prime was just as strong.

From his rookie season to his age 33 season, Crosby was 2nd in goals and 3rd in GPG (OV, Stamkos) among the Top 15 GPGs. He was 2nd in playoff goals and 4th in GPG (OV, Zetterberg, Briere) among the Top 15 GPGs.

From Robitaille's rookie season to his age 33 season, he was 2nd in goals and 4th in GPG (Mario, Hull, Lafontaine) among the Top 15 GPGs. He was 14th in playoff goals and 8th in GPG among the Top 15 GPGs.

From Yzerman's rookie season to age 33, he was 3rd in goals, and 6th in GPG (Mario, Hull, Wayne, Robitaille, Lafontaine) among the Top 15 GPGs. He was 9th in playoff goals and 9th in GPG among the Top 15 GPGs.

 

[blundluntman]

Crosby's one of the few players who goes under the radar in one skill bc he's too busy being great at another. Really wish we'd seen his 2011 season pan out completely. We might've been comparing that rocket to pretty much everything that's happened this century. Either way, definitely a great goal-scorer, just more of a part time rocket candidate so its hard to compare him to top tier guys who made their living that way.

 

[filinski77]

Crosby has been a solid goalscorer over the course of his career, but due to injuries plus inconsistency of elite seasons, he's only had 4 top-10 seasons in goals (1/1/7/7).

I did a NHL history goal scoring ranking at the start of this year and had Crosby ranked 25th. Of players with a decent career overlap with Crosby, I had the following people already ahead of him career-wise: Ovechkin, Selanne, Jagr, Stamkos, Matthews, Kovalchuk, Iginla.

On top of that, I feel pretty confident that following players will pass him: Pastrnak, McDavid, Draisaitl

Other players that have a small chance to pass him: Mackinnon, Kucherov, Connor, Point, Kaprizov

I think the 3 metrics used don't support him being a top-2/3 goal scorer of the modern era - more so showcases good consistency, and lucky timing with the older guard (Iginla, Jagr, Selanne, Kovalchuk etc.) in their second half of their career, and then the new guard (Matthews, McDavid, Drai, Pasta etc) only playing in the second half of Crosby's career.

 

[Beljavskij]

If Ovechkin didn't exist, Crosby would be regarded much higher as a goal scorer.

Ovechkin has 44% more goals in the same number of seasons with 100% career overlap. Maybe that's just bad luck for Crosby - that he entered the NHL at the same time as the obvious best and greatest goal scorer ever.

True. But on the other hand, maybe it's unlucky for Ovechkin that he overlapped with Crosby, or he would have been considered the clear cut greatest player of his generation, and not the second best.

 

[Turin]

Worth noting he played 2015-2022 with a wrist that was constantly rehabbed until surgery finally in 2023.

 

[daver]

On top of that, I feel pretty confident that following players will pass him: Pastrnak, McDavid, Draisaitl

Based on what? They are in no better position statistically as Crosby was at the same stage of their career.

At age 30/after his 12th season, Crosby is #2 in goals and #4 in GPG after Stamkos and Kovy among the Top 15 gopalscorers and had a 0.49 GPG vs. OV's GPG of 0.61. He won two Rockets and was heading towards another Rocket in 10/11.

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Pasta (1 Rocket) and Drai (0 Rockets) are in Year 11, McDavid (1 Rocket) is Year 10, and has regressed as a goalscorer in the past two seasons.

Since 14/15:

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They are #3, #4, and #5 in goals. They are #3, #4, and #5 in GPG and FARTHER AWAY from the top GPG than Crosby was to OV (arguably the greatest goalscorer of all-time). To be fair, they played in some lower scoring seasons than Matthews but the point still stands that it is isn't clear that they will be greater than Crosby.

Here is the ironic thing, all three had a chance to win a Rocket against Crosby in 16/17, one of the "weakest Rocket wins in the last 25 years" according to you.

 

[Midnight Judges]

True. But on the other hand, maybe it's unlucky for Ovechkin that he overlapped with Crosby, or he would have been considered the clear cut greatest player of his generation, and not the second best.

Ovechkin is the clear cut greatest player of his generation.

 

[rmartin65]

Ovechkin is the clear cut greatest player of his generation.

I feel like this is the minority opinion, so it is definitely not ‘clear cut’.

 

[filinski77]

They are in no better position statistically as Crosby was at the same stage of their career.

Crosby top 10 goal finishes = 1/1/7/7

Draisaitl = 2/2/4/4/4 (and is on his way to add a rocket this year). Drai without this season has essentially a similar if not better top-10 track record, AND then add this season. After thie season he justs need to compile goals and he'll be without a doubt a greater goal scorer.

McDavid = 1/2/6/6/7/10. He already has a better prime for goal scoring finishes than Crosby does, and he 100% peaked higher than Crosby ever did at goal scoring. Agreed that McDavid has slowed down on the goal scoring the last 1.5 seasons, but Crosby also did multiple times and popped back in with a one-off year. I fully expect McDavid to continue to compile goals throughout his career AND add in at least 1-2 more top-10 goal finishes.

Pastrnak = 1/2/7/10 (and add that he is currently 7th this season). He's been 2nd, 7th, 7th (this season) the last 3 seasons, so has shown no signs of slowing down (and he has 0 offensive support and carries that team).

At age 30/after his 12th season, Crosby is #2 in goals and #4 in GPG after Stamkos and Kovy among the Top 15 gopalscorers and had a 0.49 GPG vs. OV's GPG of 0.61.

As I said, looking at goals over a period of time or goals/gp out of a select group of players who also essentially HAD to have played close to similar # of games over a time period does not tell the whole story. It ignores the cutoff of guys that were elite at that time for only the first 6 years of that time frame, or the last 6 years of that time frame.

That's why I like looking at top-10 finishes. It shows how many times you actually went out and were at the top of goalscoring. Crosby only did this 4 times.

If you want to give Crosby the benefit of the doubt and do goals/gp, then it goes from 1/1/7/7 to 1/1/2/10 (and the goals/gp will always be less impressive or meaningful than what actually happened).

Here is the ironic thing, all three had a chance to win a Rocket against Crosby in 16/17, one of the "weakest Rocket wins in the last 25 years" according to you.

How is it ironic? Pastrnak was 20 and it was his first full-length season in the league, Draisaitl was 21 and was a couple years before he became an elite goal scorer, McDavid was 20 and also same thing.

Just because Crosby beat these 3 children in goals BEFORE they took that step up to being elite goal scorers means absolutely NOTHING in this discussion. What a bad argument.

 

[daver]

As I said, looking at goals over a period of time or goals/gp out of a select group of players who also essentially HAD to have played close to similar # of games over a time period does not tell the whole stop.

If they were better goalscorers than Crosby they should be closer to Matthews in GPG than Crosby was to OV during their respective primes.

That does tell the full story.

A partial story could also be Two Rockets > One Rocket/Zero Rockets but that would also tell a partial story as you are trying to do by ignoring Crosby's elite career start and elite career finish.

 

[Beljavskij]

Ovechkin is the clear cut greatest player of his generation.

No, the general consensus has been Crosby on this platform as well as outside this platform by other hockey experts. I think there was a ranking before the start of the season by ESPN or something of the best players in the last 25 years and Crosby was nr.1, Ovechkin nr.2

So, again, you have the minority opinion.