Confirmed with Link: Craig Berube named the 32nd Coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs

[colchar]

Oh, so it is about symantics and your gotcha moment. Alright, good one. Glad I more accurately explained it to be a disproportionate blame to help you out. Most normal people understood that.

Glad we worked things out.

What the hell are symantics? And why do you randomly capitalize the word?

 

[colchar]

Has anyone ever moved to center 600 games into their career?

You've clearly never heard of Red Kelly.

 

[TS Quint]

What the hell are symantics? And why do you randomly capitalize the word?

Auto correct. Don't know why it switched it. But I didn't think it would end up being a big deal. But here we are.

 

[Trapper]

Are you saying it is worth the gamble of signing Mitch for 8 more years at whatever it costs to see if he maybe does better under Berube? What if he doesn't? If Mitch is tradeable its this summer and history says they won't let him walk so its probable he's dealt before the season or he is a fixture for the rest of his career.

Absent cap concerns I might agree, and they should have at least run it back with a new coach last year to see if the Dubas formula was actually held back by playoff coaching. But keeping the band together now will blow another year of their window as they try to assemble a winner from table scraps while leaking more draft picks along the way. Adding Berube isn't going to turn the clock back for Brodie or Gio or suddenly make Lilly a top 4 stud. They can't improve this D on the same budget.

Mitch, Willie and Auston's raises plus the cost of JTs replacement eat up whatever savings happen after Tavares is done so the club is relying on cap growth in a market where every other club has the same cap growth to compete for talent. Player costs are going up so $4M a year isn't solving any problems without a LOT of luck in how its spent.

I don't think the reason Mitch isn't tearing it up has that much to do with JT. Elite money means you are elite with whomever you play. Look who Pastrnak plays with and he has MVP type seasons and except for 22-23 hasn't been MIA in the playoffs. Panarin had 43 points more than his center. When JT is replaced, it definitely isn't automatic that the points start churning out for MM. Sure it could happen but do you bet 8 x 12 on it?

I expect Mitch will hold out for more money than Willie, Pasta and Panarin are getting. The Leafs will have 3 of these deals on their cap. Even if he actually is worth $11.5-$12M no club is built this way. Time to get off the merry-go-round. It isn't Mitch the player, its Mitch the $11M.5 player and I doubt Tre can even hold him to that.

What happens if all their point totals fall under Berube?
What if his system didn’t allow you to blow the zone, make the wingers come in deep for defensive support and switch to a more north/south forecheck style.
Lots of ifs for sure.
Now is the time to change the core. Not later, not maybe, now. For 8 years people have been gripping fools gold tightly. A new harder playoff style team is needed. Choose 2 high priced forwards to keep and retool.

 

[Confucius]

What happens if all their point totals fall under Berube?
What if his system didn’t allow you to blow the zone, make the wingers come in deep for defensive support and switch to a more north/south forecheck style.
Lots of ifs for sure.
Now is the time to change the core. Not later, not maybe, now. For 8 years people have been gripping fools gold tightly. A new harder playoff style team is needed. Choose 2 high priced forwards to keep and retool.

Well we won’t be making the playoffs then. That is for sure that’s not how these guys play and it will take a few years at best to get that type of player who also has skill enough to be on a playoff calibre team.

 

[TS Quint]

LOLOLOLOL. You haven't "explained" anything, you just keep insulting me. Feel free to point out which part of which post you consider to be an "explanation", I'll wait.

What you said wasn't hyperbolic, it was incorrect, simple as that. Many people have pointed out that to you, not just me and instead of just admitting it, you're going on and on and on. I have no idea what you're looking to get out of this but you can keep it up as long as you want, I don't mind the amusement one bit.

No, its just you. Everyone else explained why they felt Marner deserved more blame. They understood the sentiment of the post. But you wanted your gotcha moment. "Ackchyually, other players got some blame too". You win. I gave you what desperately wanted and explained what I meant which was a disproportionate amount of blame, but now this seems to be about holding me to my original comment which to most was understood. Obviously one player doesn't lose a series. Are we clear on this yet? You can now go tell all your friends you won.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

I can't wait to have a coach that has the freedom to critique his players and not feel obligated to walk his comments back.

Many years ago a shift was made to protect the players and make them feel safe. Unfortunately it got away from them and the inmates ended up running the asylum.

 

[Evilhomer]

Well we won’t be making the playoffs then. That is for sure that’s not how these guys play and it will take a few years at best to get that type of player who also has skill enough to be on a playoff calibre team.

I am not worried about guys like Matthews and Nylander. They will be fine, and they will produce regular season offense, in whatever system Berube uses. However, if Berube wants an up-tempo forechecking system, the rest of the current lineup is not really filled with players who lend themselves to that approach. It's not a fast team. They will need a pretty significant upgrade in speed throughout the lineup, including far more mobile defensemen. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

[Confucius]

I am not worried about guys like Matthews and Nylander. They will be fine, and they will produce regular season offense, in whatever system Berube uses. However, if Berube wants an up-tempo forechecking system, the rest of the current lineup is not really filled with players who lend themselves to that approach. It's not a fast team. They will need a pretty significant upgrade in speed throughout the lineup, including far more mobile defensemen. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I’d be shocked we could make the playoffs with two players and a bunch of AHL quality tough guys. Tough NHL players are hard to come by, teams that have them tend to keep them. If one becomes available he more than likely has issues nobody is aware of, whether that be attitude, deteriorating physical conditioning, psychological etc. you certainly won’t get a dozen in 2 or 3 years. We are what we are play to our strength, which is offensively minded. Over time we may get those tougher players. At least that way we still have a shot in the anything can happen playoffs.

 

[mccabe2424]

Have they announced the a presser for tomorrow?

 

[Evilhomer]

I’d be shocked we could make the playoffs with two players and a bunch of AHL quality tough guys. Tough NHL players are hard to come by, teams that have them tend to keep them. If one becomes available he more than likely has issues nobody is aware of, whether that be attitude, deteriorating physical conditioning, psychological etc. you certainly won’t get a dozen in 2 or 3 years. We are what we are play to our strength, which is offensively minded. Over time we may get those tougher players. At least that way we still have a shot in the anything can happen playoffs.

It's why I don't expect Berube to do anything crazy when it comes to how the team plays. I expect that they will be tighter defensively in the regular season, but the reality is that defensive play in the playoffs isn't an issue with this team.

 

[Gary Nylund]

When your line scored only 6 game at 5v5 in 22 game. its 1 goal like every 4 game.

When he will start to play even more against tkachuk' barkov, kucherov, point and those kind of playe because if marner is leaving nylander will need to play even morr aginst those player and not against a 3 or 4th line... what do you think will happen.

and matthews and nylander are also part of problem with lack of pp succes

I don't understand what you're trying to say with that 1st sentence.

I think Nylander was quite good the last two playoffs, and I don't think he spent much time playing against 3rd/4th lines either. We'll see what happens but I'm not worried about Nylander at all.

Yes the PP sucks and it blows my mind that all talent can produce such a poor PP. I don't know who to blame so I'll just say that there's plenty of blame to go around so of course Matthews/Nylander get their fair share. And Marner too, he's supposed to be the "engine of the team" or so some people have been saying anyway.

Well we won’t be making the playoffs then. That is for sure that’s not how these guys play and it will take a few years at best to get that type of player who also has skill enough to be on a playoff calibre team.

Nonsense. These guys played Berube style defensive hockey against Boston and games 5-7, and especially in games 5/6 they did it like champions. Move Marner out, use that cap space to get a good goalie and a good Dman and there's no telling how good these guys could be, especially after one more year when we can do something else with JT's cap space as well.

Or maybe you meant to say that for sure, that's not how Marner plays? In that case I'd say that you just might be right.

No, its just you. Everyone else explained why they felt Marner deserved more blame. They understood the sentiment of the post. But you wanted your gotcha moment. "Ackchyually, other players got some blame too". You win. I gave you what desperately wanted and explained what I meant which was a disproportionate amount of blame, but now this seems to be about holding me to my original comment which to most was understood. Obviously one player doesn't lose a series. Are we clear on this yet? You can now go tell all your friends you won.

You claimed you "explained yourself", I'm still waiting for you to show us when you did that because I'm pretty sure when you asked me to find you posts where people were criticizing Matthews, that wasn't it.

A number of people told you that you were wrong, nothing to do with "sentiment".

I don't "desperately want" anything, why do you insist on making up and posting this ridiculous fiction?

If you meant disproportionate amount of blame then that's fine, but I'm pretty sure you never said that before, it's only now after posting a ton of nonsense that you're getting around to that. And "disproportionate" is a subjective term so you can think what you like, I personally think the blame he's getting is completely deserved. When you have an 11 million dollar cap hit and keep choking in the playoffs, you deserve a big huge heap of blame.

Nobody said one player is to blame, that's been clear to everyone. Are you ever going to finish chewing on that old tired straw man? Do you really enjoy the taste that much?

All you had to do is start with something like "oops, I shouldn't have said Marner's the only one being blamed, of course that's not true" and that would have been the end of it. But no, you were so butthurt by a few of us pointing out that you're wrong that you went off on these ridiculous rants. Have you had a good time? Are you (finally) done now?

 

[thusk]

I don't understand what you're trying to say with that 1st sentence.

I think Nylander was quite good the last two playoffs, and I don't think he spent much time playing against 3rd/4th lines either. We'll see what happens but I'm not worried about Nylander at all.

Yes the PP sucks and it blows my mind that all talent can produce such a poor PP. I don't know who to blame so I'll just say that there's plenty of blame to go around so of course Matthews/Nylander get their fair share. And Marner too, he's supposed to be the "engine of the team" or so some people have been saying anyway.


Nonsense. These guys played Berube style defensive hockey against Boston and games 5-7, and especially in games 5/6 they did it like champions. Move Marner out, use that cap space to get a good goalie and a good Dman and there's no telling how good these guys could be, especially after one more year when we can do something else with JT's cap space as well.

Or maybe you meant to say that for sure, that's not how Marner plays? In that case I'd say that you just might be right.


You claimed you "explained yourself", I'm still waiting for you to show us when you did that because I'm pretty sure when you asked me to find you posts where people were criticizing Matthews, that wasn't it.

A number of people told you that you were wrong, nothing to do with "sentiment".

I don't "desperately want" anything, why do you insist on making up and posting this ridiculous fiction?

If you meant disproportionate amount of blame then that's fine, but I'm pretty sure you never said that before, it's only now after posting a ton of nonsense that you're getting around to that. And "disproportionate" is a subjective term so you can think what you like, I personally think the blame he's getting is completely deserved. When you have an 11 million dollar cap hit and keep choking in the playoffs, you deserve a big huge heap of blame.

Nobody said one player is to blame, that's been clear to everyone. Are you ever going to finish chewing on that old tired straw man? Do you really enjoy the taste that much?

All you had to do is start with something like "oops, I shouldn't have said Marner's the only one being blamed, of course that's not true" and that would have been the end of it. But no, you were so butthurt by a few of us pointing out that you're wrong that you went off on these ridiculous rants. Have you had a good time? Are you (finally) done now?

by exemple agaist Boston

nylander played 68% against marchand of pasta line

marner is at 84% and matthews at 64%

If marner is not there anymore to take those matchup, what will happen? Its matthews and nylander would will need to take it.


the #1 reason why toronto beat tampa last year is marner who played 78 of time vs tampa top 6 and completly shutdown by didn't allowed a single 5v5 goal to tampa top 6 vs nylander who played 67% of time against tampa top 6 and been completly dominated.

If you raising timr matthews and nylander playing against top 6, do you think they will have a better impact both offensively and defensively than right now?

 

[Trapper]

by exemple agaist Boston

nylander played 68% against marchand of pasta line

marner is at 84% and matthews at 64%

If marner is not there anymore to take those matchup, what will happen? Its matthews and nylander would will need to take it.


the #1 reason why toronto beat tampa last year is marner who played 78 of time vs tampa top 6 and completly shutdown by didn't allowed a single 5v5 goal to tampa top 6 vs nylander who played 67% of time against tampa top 6 and been completly dominated.

If you raising timr matthews and nylander playing against top 6, do you think they will have a better impact both offensively and defensively than right now?

Too early to say.
We will need to see what we get in trade return, UFA signings, possible bigger roles for others and how Berube deploys the team in terms of forecheck, defence, system, etc.

 

[thusk]

Too early to say.
We will need to see what we get in trade return, UFA signings, possible bigger roles for others and how Berube deploys the team in terms of forecheck, defence, system, etc.

sure its too early to say but sorry all the bullshit against marner is unfair, thats what i said. He's the guy who played the hardest matchup year after year after year. He played a total of 17 minutes against against bottom 6 probably most of the time on defensive faceoff or those kind of situation.

both nylander and matthews a closer of 50/50 mark top 6vs bottom 6 than marner but everyone blaming marner to dont producing enough without playing the favorable matchup who should give him an strategic advantage.

And after people think than switching marner is the solution for everything but i honestly they're a good chance than it just be worst for leafs. If matthews/ nylander was struggling to produce against easier, did they really producing more playing even and do they will be able to prevent goal as well?

Everyone hope for the Tkachuk trade but maybe the Tkachuk in any trade involving marner is marner in himself. Meybe if he trade somewhere where he dont need to play those matchup every shift.

 

[HOTD]

This also could apply to Marner. It is worth the gamble seeing if he can have success under Berube and not having to play with a slowed Tavares.

I disagree. The problem I have is Marner doesn’t elevate lesser talent or “older/slower” guys, Willie has. Matthews has. If he’s slumping or being held to “superstar” standards, it’s another players fault. That’s what players that get paid superstar money should do. I wouldn’t give him away for nothing, but why pay a guy $11 million / year if he needs a Matthews or Willie to make it work. That’s the whole crux of the issue with the core 4.

 

[Trapper]

sure its too early to say but sorry all the bullshit against marner is unfair, thats what i said. He's the guy who played the hardest matchup year after year after year. He played a total of 17 minutes against against bottom 6 probably most of the time on defensive faceoff or those kind of situation.

both nylander and matthews a closer of 50/50 mark top 6vs bottom 6 than marner but everyone blaming marner to dont producing enough without playing the favorable matchup who should give him an strategic advantage.

And after people think than switching marner is the solution for everything but i honestly they're a good chance than it just be worst for leafs. If matthews/ nylander was struggling to produce against easier, did they really producing more playing even and do they will be able to prevent goal as well?

Everyone hope for the Tkachuk trade but maybe the Tkachuk in any trade involving marner is marner in himself. Meybe if he trade somewhere where he dont need to play those matchup every shift.

Nobody wanted to be talking about this 8 years later. Unfortunately, that’s where we’re at. This core has had more chances than just about any other team we’ve had.

With repeated playoff failure, it was probably always coming down to one of Nylander/Marner. The wingers. Circumstances, contracts and it appears strain on Marner personally, has made him the front runner. Sometimes you can’t move forward without change.

You can be mad at other Leaf fans, the media, management, but this is the situation we’ve been placed in.

 

[Confucius]

It's why I don't expect Berube to do anything crazy when it comes to how the team plays. I expect that they will be tighter defensively in the regular season, but the reality is that defensive play in the playoffs isn't an issue with this team.

If they play D they can’t score, unfortunately that has been proven.

 

[HOTD]

Common sense would tell you that’s not true.
The things people come up with.

Link

Sounds pretty detailed to me. Doesn’t sound like something Berube would care for.

 

[Stephen]

They were closer than you think. Managements subsequent inability to adjust to the flat cap is what led them to where they are.

The Leafs were never close to a cup. The fact that they were gearing up to an all in mode as early as 2018 and 2019 actually tells me a lot about how delusional management was and how off they were in their assessments. Matthews and Marner were 21-22, Nylander 22-23 and they were 2 and 3 years out from drafting first overall.

Who drafted first overall in 2022? Imagine Montreal thinking they could win the cup this year with Slafkovsky leading the way. That’s how premature the expectations were.

If anything, the Leafs were too far ahead of schedule in 2017 and 2018. Probably would have been making the playoffs on a consistent basis around 2019. Playoff learning experiences and the innocent climb beginning in 2020 and 2021. And then in all in mode 2022 till now. Instead they got there too early and the scars just built up over time. Too many assets wasted competing too early. Not enough years in the basement to gain more blue chip players. Overpriced core from early days success.

 

[kevsh]

I can't wait to have a coach that has the freedom to critique his players and not feel obligated to walk his comments back.

And I'm not convinced yet that Berube will be that coach.

I think anyone assuming anything will be different now is basing it purely on his reputation, but not acknowledging that this team is still being run by Shanahan.

I'll wait until the first instance of Berube publicly calling out a star player and/or benching/sitting him then not backtracking with his tail between his legs the next day before I believe anything has changed.

 

[myleafs]

If that's true, then just wow! Marner grew up in this town so he should know how bad this looks. This kid seems to have no self awareness whatsoever, just incredible stuff.

I still feel that Kessel tweeting that there is nothing better than night fishing while the playoffs were still going was one of the more tone deaf things Ive seen from a leaf player. Dont get me wrong, Marner lives in la la land and does not get it, or doesnt care, both arent a great look in this market.

Did you read both posts in context?

If you did, you’ve missed the point and are falling into the trap of recency bias in the worst way.

I believe Marner was worth LESS than a $4M dollar player in the playoffs. Ossified as my heart has become to the outcome prior to the start of the playoffs, there is nothing served in conveniently forgetting the corpus of Marner’s work.

50 pts in 57 playoff games for an "elite" player is not the flex you seem to think it is.

 

[myleafs]

None of the core have shown they’ll ever be a major contributor on a Cup winning team.

As complimentary pieces I could see it ala Kessel but as main cogs it sure doesnt look like it.

 

[myleafs]

This is the winner of this thread.

I might add to this since I've been a believer in Matthews since I listened to him as he grew as a player and watched his play on the ice; some players have it in them to be that different player. Most importantly is their cap hit.

Now it has been in spurts and it isn't his primary role of course, but we saw Matthews throw down Weber, a big man. We saw him get suspended when he retaliated after taking too much abuse, we saw him reluctantly (instinctively) drop the gloves against Stamkos.

We've seen him throw checks and play with some edge.

Nylander doesn't have that in him when he digs deep but he does have flashes of it and he rises to the occasion often.

The other three are just nice guys. Nothing wrong with that. This is a problem in the NHL playoffs when the game becomes all about how much you are willing to give. How much sacrifice and determination do you have?

Easier to do so with two players. If Marner, JT and Reilly were each $3-4M players, the heat wouldn't be nearly as intense as it is. At this point, they carry the burden because their cap space is preventing the team from getting those who WILL sacrifice and will their way to success in the playoffs.

I appreciate Matthews goal scoring prowess but to suggest he is a physical gritty player is a bit of a stretch. He is a big body who every now and then pushes back but it is not his natural state and its pretty obvious he wants no part of it. Tkachuk he is not. I still cant get his smirking and going limp out of my mind. Even this year in the bruins series he grabbed a player after the whistle which grabbed my attention but as soon as another player grabbed him, he looked at him let go and looked down at the ice. Can he become a more intense physical player....I wouldnt bet on it tbh.

 

[Da Mash]

I think all coaches need players and some luck to have success in the playoffs.
Berube is not going to win us the Cup by himself, I don’t think any coaches can.
What he can bring is a different voice and different approach to the team.
Now would he be successful, nobody knows but one thing for certain, Keefe could not get it done.

I agree

It’s just who is the x and o guy here? Berube is a motivator but not much of a tachnician. Keefe had a nice system. We were always tops in scoring and our D wasn’t bad till this yr when they changed the scheme.

That’s why a worry about the assistants as they will be more impor then ever


Hopefully we have spend the cap dollars wisely .