Confirmed with Link: Coyotes forfeit 2020 2nd round pick and a 2021 1st round pick for violating league’s combine testing

[AZviaNJ]

If you move Goligoski, Hammer, Demers, Stepan, Raanta, etc out for mid/lower-round picks....the Coyotes will need to take, likely equivalent, salary back in a flat cap world to make trades work. What do you really accomplish? Might be better off to trade these guys at the TDL or let them walk after the season.

 

[cobra427]

No Bux, this makes perfect sense, you just need to take off your Chayka glasses. The guy's a snake or incompetent, or maybe a bit of both (honestly, I think both but that's a different discussion)

Putting the pieces together, I think something like this happened:

1) Chayka reads what's written about the combine. It's something like, "teams shall not put draft-eligible players through physicals prior to the combine." As everyone says, hockey is an old boys club so all the other GMs know what this means. Chayka sees an opportunity.

2) Chayka says, "Oooh I'll just email their clubs for information about the players' physical abilities but not put them through a physical myself! I'll get around the language that way." It doesn't have to be exactly this but the idea is he's trying to use the loopholes in the policy to gain an unfair advantage for the team with regards to scouting players. Unfair is the key word.

3) Chayka knows he's trying to do something underhanded so instead of asking someone from the league whether this sort of action is even allowed, he just does it anyway, worst case he figures he gets a slap on the wrist.

4) Other teams in the league find out about what we did, Chayka did all his information requests by email so it wasn't that hard. The complaints come in two forms: 1) complaining Chayka's behavior is unethical and 2) asking that if Chayka's behavior is allowed, then what else is allowed? In other words some teams are asking the league, 'ok what constitutes a physical can I send my jet to fly the players to play pick up basketball is that ok? While we're at it maybe we can get a post-game meal at the most expensive caviar restaurant in town?' that sort of thing

5) Bettman thinks about it for half a second and thinks, 'no f***ing way the idea is that prior to the combine you're only allowed publicly available information, scouts at games and that's it'

6) Anyway Bettman's team looks into it, it's obvious what Chayka was doing. The way Bettman's statement is written, he can't prove that Chayka knowingly violated the policy (as opposed to gray area), but Chayka was grossly negligent meaning any half-brained idiot would send the league a quick email for clarification on the policy before doing embarking on an effort like this.

Chayka didn't. So we should be fined

Exactly, and again, this is what you get with a young inexperienced manager. Also, look at the way he left, quit for another job in the NHL disguised as a position that won't violate his non compete clause. I wonder about the Hall trade too, and what conversations were going on between Chayka and the Devils. Hey, we want to hire you, we'll pay you more, take Hall off our hands for good young talent, help us rebuild, we'll hire you after the season.

Chayka reminds me of somebody who thinks he is smarter than everyone else. Understanding analytical spreadsheets, owning a Wendy's franchise (its cookie cutter, all figured out for you), is way different then managing a more complex business. No experienced GM or business manager would make this mistake.

 

[rt]

If you move Goligoski, Hammer, Demers, Stepan, Raanta, etc out for mid/lower-round picks....the Coyotes will need to take, likely equivalent, salary back in a flat cap world to make trades work. What do you really accomplish? Might be better off to trade these guys at the TDL or let them walk after the season.

I hate them and want them gone?

 

[_Del_]

Raanta is gone. If OEL wants out, he's probably gone. Maybe a minor deal or two. We're still a year away from the big roster remodel. Nothing's changed.

 

[BUX7PHX]

No Bux, this makes perfect sense, you just need to take off your Chayka glasses. The guy's a snake or incompetent, or maybe a bit of both (honestly, I think both but that's a different discussion)

Putting the pieces together, I think something like this happened:

1) Chayka reads what's written about the combine. It's something like, "teams shall not put draft-eligible players through physicals prior to the combine." As everyone says, hockey is an old boys club so all the other GMs know what this means. Chayka sees an opportunity.

2) Chayka says, "Oooh I'll just email their clubs for information about the players' physical abilities but not put them through a physical myself! I'll get around the language that way." It doesn't have to be exactly this but the idea is he's trying to use the loopholes in the policy to gain an unfair advantage for the team with regards to scouting players. Unfair is the key word.

3) Chayka knows he's trying to do something underhanded so instead of asking someone from the league whether this sort of action is even allowed, he just does it anyway, worst case he figures he gets a slap on the wrist.

4) Other teams in the league find out about what we did, Chayka did all his information requests by email so it wasn't that hard. The complaints come in two forms: 1) complaining Chayka's behavior is unethical and 2) asking that if Chayka's behavior is allowed, then what else is allowed? In other words some teams are asking the league, 'ok what constitutes a physical can I send my jet to fly the players to play pick up basketball is that ok? While we're at it maybe we can get a post-game meal at the most expensive caviar restaurant in town?' that sort of thing

5) Bettman thinks about it for half a second and thinks, 'no f***ing way the idea is that prior to the combine you're only allowed publicly available information, scouts at games and that's it'

6) Anyway Bettman's team looks into it, it's obvious what Chayka was doing. The way Bettman's statement is written, he can't prove that Chayka knowingly violated the policy (as opposed to gray area), but Chayka was grossly negligent meaning any half-brained idiot would send the league a quick email for clarification on the policy before doing embarking on an effort like this.

Chayka didn't. So we should be fined

I must be missing the violation then. Taking information that a team sends to you after requesting it is not testing players in your own manner.

Take off your glasses and re read bullet points 1 and 2 that you presented. Bullet point 1 says that Chayka did something without clarifying if that something was illegal, with regard to the testing of eligible players.

You then bring up a situation in #2 where apparently Chayka managed to obtain this info via email, but getting information via email is not physical testing of players. That is taking someone else's opinion and using that opinion or information to make a decision. In some years, our scouting staff was so small, we literally had the NHL Central Scouting list as our resource. This is no different. Getting information emailed to you is not physical testing.

 

[GhostofYotesFan47]

What a f***ing joke of a franchise we are. We finally got ourselves ahead of Buffalo and Ottawa in the laughing stock category but because our GM was a stupid pile of garbage we are now 5+ years off track. The Hall trade was damaging enough, now we had to try and play a game of ask for forgiveness and got our balls kicked for it. What's worse is we have about 5 assets worth anything meaningful but because we hired a clown of a coach their value is rotten as well.

How do I time travel back to 2011, at least our team had hope back then. We have to go scorched earth now from what I can tell.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I agree, but do we know the whole story. We can piss and moan all we want but it will not change a damn thing. Turn the page and forget about it.

So you're for accountability on the ice only? Why not accountability for the front office? Why can't the NHL itself be questioned? Both the NHL and the Coyotes released statements yesterday that concluded with the comment the we will not address this issue again. How is that acceptable? I would like to know EXACTLY why they have lost these picks.
Apparently you don't have much of a financial commitment to this club and are content to piss and moan ad nauseam about Stepan's ice time etc.

 

[Mosby]

I'd still like some more heads to roll because of this. It's not just Chayka. Anyone who knew about it but didn't flag it should be out.

Problem is we're too close to the draft and have too barren a front office to clean house right now. So let these guys conduct one more draft and then fire them all.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

The Coyotes cheated, the Coyotes got sanctioned. Stop trying to blame anyone else.

How did they cheat? What exactly happened?

 

[Mosby]

I'd take Domi back if it is (the) Hunter(s) coming in. So OEL for Domi+. Any stupid shit and Hunter will put Domi through a wall.

 

[moosemeister]

I'd still like some more heads to roll because of this. It's not just Chayka. Anyone who knew about it but didn't flag it should be out.

Problem is we're too close to the draft and have too barren a front office to clean house right now. So let these guys conduct one more draft and then fire them all.

No way. These GMs and scouts have been doing their due diligence for years on this draft. Fire everyone and hire a new GM and scouts and let them run the show this year. No point in letting anyone in this regime handle this draft. Fire everyone and let the new staff do it

 

[Mosby]

You want to bring in a new scouting staff less than 6 weeks prior to the draft?

 

[Jamieh]

Lotto Max! No "insane" totals though. I think 60 mil has been the max.

But to blow an American's mind, that $60 million like all lottery winnings is tax free!!!!

 

[Jakey53]

So you're for accountability on the ice only? Why not accountability for the front office? Why can't the NHL itself be questioned? Both the NHL and the Coyotes released statements yesterday that concluded with the comment the we will not address this issue again. How is that acceptable? I would like to know EXACTLY why they have lost these picks.
Apparently you don't have much of a financial commitment to this club and are content to piss and moan ad nauseam about Stepan's ice time etc.

I would love to know the details, but I doubt we get that. It's a franchise, private business so in all honestly it's none of our business. Your only recourse is not buy tickets, but everyone will cool off in a couple of days.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

No Bux, this makes perfect sense, you just need to take off your Chayka glasses. The guy's a snake or incompetent, or maybe a bit of both (honestly, I think both but that's a different discussion)

Putting the pieces together, I think something like this happened:

1) Chayka reads what's written about the combine. It's something like, "teams shall not put draft-eligible players through physicals prior to the combine." As everyone says, hockey is an old boys club so all the other GMs know what this means. Chayka sees an opportunity.

2) Chayka says, "Oooh I'll just email their clubs for information about the players' physical abilities but not put them through a physical myself! I'll get around the language that way." It doesn't have to be exactly this but the idea is he's trying to use the loopholes in the policy to gain an unfair advantage for the team with regards to scouting players. Unfair is the key word.

3) Chayka knows he's trying to do something underhanded so instead of asking someone from the league whether this sort of action is even allowed, he just does it anyway, worst case he figures he gets a slap on the wrist.

4) Other teams in the league find out about what we did, Chayka did all his information requests by email so it wasn't that hard. The complaints come in two forms: 1) complaining Chayka's behavior is unethical and 2) asking that if Chayka's behavior is allowed, then what else is allowed? In other words some teams are asking the league, 'ok what constitutes a physical can I send my jet to fly the players to play pick up basketball is that ok? While we're at it maybe we can get a post-game meal at the most expensive caviar restaurant in town?' that sort of thing

5) Bettman thinks about it for half a second and thinks, 'no f***ing way the idea is that prior to the combine you're only allowed publicly available information, scouts at games and that's it'

6) Anyway Bettman's team looks into it, it's obvious what Chayka was doing. The way Bettman's statement is written, he can't prove that Chayka knowingly violated the policy (as opposed to gray area), but Chayka was grossly negligent meaning any half-brained idiot would send the league a quick email for clarification on the policy before doing embarking on an effort like this.

Chayka didn't. So we should be fined

A GRAND tale. Can you verify any of it?

 

[Jamieh]

How did they cheat? What exactly happened?

I dont know but here is what Betman said:

"Commissioner Gary Bettman determined the organization broke the rules by physically testing prospects outside of the combine, which is prohibited "to ensure competitive fairness among clubs with respect to evaluating and drafting prospects and to avoid subjecting prospects to repeated and duplicative testing procedures."

I also listened to Dreger yesterday and he said he had plenty of proof about the incidents and his record on this subject quite frankly is batting about perfect while the talk on here has been suspect at best.

 

[BUX7PHX]

So you're for accountability on the ice only? Why not accountability for the front office? Why can't the NHL itself be questioned? Both the NHL and the Coyotes released statements yesterday that concluded with the comment the we will not address this issue again. How is that acceptable? I would like to know EXACTLY why they have lost these picks.
Apparently you don't have much of a financial commitment to this club and are content to piss and moan ad nauseam about Stepan's ice time etc.

There is a definitive lack of clarity on this.

My overall take is that I do think that something happened. However, I don't believe that it was regarding what people think it was. My personal belief is that somehow, Stathletes blurred the lines between what was and was not acceptable. An example might be that one of the Coyote scouts is also with Stathletes. Well, when a team or player goes to Stathletes asking for ways to improve, etc., one of those means to getting that info is physical testing. In this case, what is meant to be proprietary data for Stathletes also kind of became the property of the Coyotes.

 

[hbk]

I dont know but here is what Betman said:

"Commissioner Gary Bettman determined the organization broke the rules by physically testing prospects outside of the combine, which is prohibited "to ensure competitive fairness among clubs with respect to evaluating and drafting prospects and to avoid subjecting prospects to repeated and duplicative testing procedures."

I also listened to Dreger yesterday and he said he had plenty of proof about the incidents and his record on this subject quite frankly is batting about perfect while the talk on here has been suspect at best.

Just been asking for someone to document this for what 8 months now? If you are a journalist then be a journalist. Don’t tell me about how you could be a journalist. Put your name on it.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I would love to know the details, but I doubt we get that. It's a franchise, private business so in all honestly it's none of our business. Your only recourse is not buy tickets, but everyone will cool off in a couple of days.

Already committed for two years.
This comes back to having some form of decent reporting and there is none. Regardless, I see no reason more inclusive statements can't be made, by either party, or both.

 

[BUX7PHX]

No way. These GMs and scouts have been doing their due diligence for years on this draft. Fire everyone and hire a new GM and scouts and let them run the show this year. No point in letting anyone in this regime handle this draft. Fire everyone and let the new staff do it

This brings up another point. Why did this happen to come up this year? Wouldn't this have been something that had been done for all of Chayka's tenure as GM, if he has directed this from the start?

 

[moosemeister]

You want to bring in a new scouting staff less than 6 weeks prior to the draft?

Yup.

A new GM bad his preferred staff has already done their research on this class.

I’d rather the new regime put their stamp on players now. It’s not like we have a first and second rounder to worry about. Based off this current scouting departments past drafts, it won’t get much worse

 

[Coyotedroppings]

If you move Goligoski, Hammer, Demers, Stepan, Raanta, etc out for mid/lower-round picks....the Coyotes will need to take, likely equivalent, salary back in a flat cap world to make trades work. What do you really accomplish? Might be better off to trade these guys at the TDL or let them walk after the season.

AND it undoubtedly makes the team weaker next season, which provides us the opportunity for a high draft pick..... that we can't use.

 

[PainForShane]

I must be missing the violation then. Taking information that a team sends to you after requesting it is not testing players in your own manner.

Take off your glasses and re read bullet points 1 and 2 that you presented. Bullet point 1 says that Chayka did something without clarifying if that something was illegal, with regard to the testing of eligible players.

You then bring up a situation in #2 where apparently Chayka managed to obtain this info via email, but getting information via email is not physical testing of players. That is taking someone else's opinion and using that opinion or information to make a decision. In some years, our scouting staff was so small, we literally had the NHL Central Scouting list as our resource. This is no different. Getting information emailed to you is not physical testing.

What you're saying is factually 100% correct. But I think you're missing the point.

As an aside at a high level I do... appreciate?... the discussions we're having and the way we're doing it. We're obviously both well informed and passionate about our team, and also we have our own opinions. Which is great! Passionate fans should disagree. And while you and I disagree 100% wrt Chayka, we're keeping every disagreement above board which is awesome I think.

Anyway to answer your question: it's all about trust and integrity, especially in regards to an old boys network like the NHL. The combine policy probably wasn't as clearly written out as it could've been, but again, someone trustworthy wouldn't try to take advantage of some poor wording. Anyone trustworthy would've written the league and said, 'hey if I did XXX would this be ok?' Chayka didn't do that.

And FWIW, from NHL.com, "the Club acknowledged that it had violated the Policy by conducting physical testing on 2020 draft-eligible players prior to the Combine." NHL announces sanctions to Coyotes for violating combine testing policy

So from what I can tell, Meruelo and the rest of leadership was like, "yes, what we did was absolutely wrong." Bettman's a former lawyer, which is why he called Chayka 'grossly negligent' instead of 'indulging in intentional wrongdoing' but only because Chayka didn't verify with the league first (as anyone with integrity would have done). Put a different way, it's obvious Chayka should've asked the league "hey this hasn't been in the history of the league if I do this, is it legal?" Less than a minute for him to verify he wouldn't have done anything shady. Honestly why the f*** didn't he do that, that speaks to integrity more than anything else. Also FWIW Meruelo isn't fighting the fine and agrees that we did something wrong. That says a lot imo, more than whatever we think as message board fans

 

[MayDayMayDay]

What a f***ing joke of a franchise we are. We finally got ourselves ahead of Buffalo and Ottawa in the laughing stock category but because our GM was a stupid pile of garbage we are now 5+ years off track. The Hall trade was damaging enough, now we had to try and play a game of ask for forgiveness and got our balls kicked for it. What's worse is we have about 5 assets worth anything meaningful but because we hired a clown of a coach their value is rotten as well.

How do I time travel back to 2011, at least our team had hope back then. We have to go scorched earth now from what I can tell.

As a part Buffalo fan, we're still not worse than the Sabres. At least we have a competent owner. The ownership group in Buffalo PSE is a gong show. The entire Bills marketing department resigned due to low morale.

But I digress. I'm very upset with the NHL's punishment. But nothing we can do about it now but focus on the future.

Sell sell sell. 25 and older, out. Recoup as many draft picks and prospects as we can. Next year will be tough, but... Do this right, and I think we can bounce back the year after next.

 

[Mosby]

Yup.

A new GM bad his preferred staff has already done their research on this class.

I’d rather the new regime put their stamp on players now. It’s not like we have a first and second rounder to worry about. Based off this current scouting departments past drafts, it won’t get much worse

I get this but there isn't time. So we have 6 weeks, the first 2 which are likely consumed in hiring the GM. Then where do you get scouts? Anyone under contract likely won't be allowed to jump ship til after the draft, and any former (unemployed) scouts may not even have notes on this year's class.