Coyotes 2021 Roster Discussion

[BUX7PHX]

Thinking about Chayka. How he seemed to be able to find talent but struggled to build a team properly because he failed to account for intangibles.

Then BA at the intro press conference when he was hired took a subtle shot saying that if you build an analytics roster, you'll get boring, ineffective, uninspired play (or something to that effect). Of course BA goes and add nothing but a bunch of intangibles like immediately.

I'm wondering if maybe that is actually enough to make the parts Chayka collected actually start working properly. Like maybe he wasn't wrong about Keller, Schmaltz, etc. Maybe Chayka was right on the money about these key pieces. But maybe we just needed BA to come in and actually put them together properly and add the proper supports.

Makes me think that maybe Chayka’s biggest problem was that he was a General Manager instead of an assistant General Manager. Kinda like how Tocchet makes a great AC but a poor HC. It’s not that these guys are bad at their jobs, they’re just in over their heads.

Chayka always bungled the human element of everything. Cant do that as a GM. But you can in a more specialized role like AGM. Tocchet seems to bungle everything other than the human element. Cant do that as a HC. But as an AC? That’s the most important part.

Both guys were last-minute, bargain bin, desperation hires from a broken organization that had the cooties. The only way they could attract solid candidates despite low pay and instability, was to offer them jobs at least one tier above where they were probably qualified.

I think that’s how it always felt like it might work or was about to work but nothing ever really came together. It’s that lack of big-picture experience at all levels.

So many novel, and interesting things were done so well. So many boring and conventional things were done so poorly. It feels like we could never balance the innovation with the conventional wisdom.

Just saw this, and this actually makes a lot of sense.

Here is my logic: the hardest thing to get in the NHL is purely talented players, like Hall. They cost a lot, and the way to get them if you don't draft them involves picking them up in free agency or trade.

I actually think that Chayka and Armstrong have similar approaches, to a degree. If Chayka were still around, he would be in year 5. Armstrong talked about a 5 year plan. What if Chayka's went like this:

Yr 1: evaluate who you currently have and where you can go with it. This is the start of drafting better and development as well with Keller and Chychrun.

Yr 2-3: start to get rid of some of the non-fits, but make sure we get talent back as well (Strome/Perlini for Schmaltz). Get some of these individuals with higher end talent to stay long term so that in 2 years, you can see who is progresssing (Dvorak, Chychrun)

Yr 4: once the talent is in, now if that talent is doing well, the next part is a little easier: find the bottom 6 that can complement well. There are multiple players to sign for less than $2 M. Not a lot of high quality players available for that low. That was the purpose of bringing Hall in. If we make noise with Hall and keep him, it is way easier to dunp certain deals and then fit players around elite talent than it is to have a bunch of average players and maybe hope to convince someone to sign, as we saw with JVR.

I think that the methodology was not as bad as it appears, but two things work against: #1 the person who measured heights/weights cost picks that could be used to rid bad contracts and #2 our coach is probably not the best for them right now.

I think Chayka recognized that we needed a talent infusion, and we went after that first. To me, once you have that, many more players will listen come FA. But if we don't make those types of moves, we have to play the waiting game woth our own development.

 

[Mosby]

Honka clears as expected.

 

[rt]

Honka clears as expected.

Not that Honka is a solution to anything, but our PP needs some help and I think there has to be some kind of real change made to it. ZERO shot on 4 PPs last night is incredible. If that happened to Toronto or Montreal, buildings would be on fire and cars would be flipped over. I think BA needs to at the very least tell Tocchet and Housley that they are to take their hands 100% off the PP and give it to Varady and Stillman to split.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I flipped my truck over and it burnt, does that count?

 

[Grimes]

What about a Demers for Yandle swap. Or Goose for Yandle? I know we would be taking on his contract but I want one of those two gone now. I really liked Goligoski last year and thought he has been an underrated signing for the most part (consistency and give-a-damn issues aside) but he looks checked out and like he has lost a step. Demers has been great since we aquired him as well, loved how he changed his game from a two-way guy to a more shutdown role, but his injuries have clearly shaken him. He isn't as gritty this season and seems to avoid closing lanes or clearing space if he is worried about getting ran over. Surprising considering both need contracts. Yandle can at least get us more goals and could look alright with Hammer. The PP needs some help without OEL in the mix for a couple weeks.

Then next season when we potentially have two spots open on the blueline we can get some guys who fit the BA mold rather than the Chayka "zone entries are all I care about" mantra.

OEL-Demers
Chychrun-Oesterle
Yandle-Hammer
Cappo-Bush
Soderstrom

Decent depth for now and feels a little more situational than the current mix.

 

[_Del_]

Flashback, one year ago almost to the day:

 

[_Del_]

I really liked Goligoski last year and thought he has been an underrated signing for the most part (consistency and give-a-damn issues aside) but he looks checked out and like he has lost a step. Demers has been great since we aquired him as well, loved how he changed his game from a two-way guy to a more shutdown role, but his injuries have clearly shaken him. He isn't as gritty this season and seems to avoid closing lanes or clearing space if he is worried about getting ran over

It's four games. I don't think it's time to panic and pick up a bad contract in Yandle. But Goose and Demers have both been dog poop bad. Revisit in a week.

 

[Mosby]

Not that Honka is a solution to anything, but our PP needs some help and I think there has to be some kind of real change made to it. ZERO shot on 4 PPs last night is incredible. If that happened to Toronto or Montreal, buildings would be on fire and cars would be flipped over. I think BA needs to at the very least tell Tocchet and Housley that they are to take their hands 100% off the PP and give it to Varady and Stillman to split.

Yeah the 0/4 stat is definitely ugly. In no way am I defending Housley but they are trying some different things. At one point it was 4 forwards out there and Capobianco. That would have never happened in the past.

 

[SCT]

He may end up in Tucson eventually, but the Roadrunners put out their training camp roster (which starts this week) and Soderstrom is not on it. I think the big club plans on keeping him... let's get him some game experience.

My guess is they want him around the team until training camp starts in Tucson. They will probably send him there a few days before the season begins.

 

[Grimes]

It's four games. I don't think it's time to panic and pick up a bad contract in Yandle. But Goose and Demers have both been dog poop bad. Revisit in a week.

Agreed and I'm not convinced Goligoski realizes this is the actual season and not preseason so we will see. All I know is getting the PP going could be crucial while OEL is out. Imagine having been up 3-1 going into the 3rd in the first match with Vegas. Right now I'd rather move Demers for Yandle and shelter the hell out of him but let's see how the unit looks after a couple more games.

 

[rt]

@mouser - can Florida acquire Demers? Since they're retaining salary on his contract, is that allowed?

 

[_Del_]

Right now I'd rather move Demers for Yandle and shelter the hell out of him but let's see how the unit looks after a couple more games.

Eh, Demers is expiring. He can go anywhere for a pick at the deadline.
Yandle will 100% be available next off-season if we need to turn to a Plan B post-expansion, draft, free agency, etc. I wouldn't really want him at anything over $4M because of his term. If he only had a year or two left, I'd be more enthusiastic about getting him and ignoring his cap hit.
I'm not incredibly worried about this season except as a development year. Everything should be about setting us up for future success, including allowing our bad contracts to expire and giving us flexibility in the summer.

 

[Mosby]

@mouser - can Florida acquire Demers? Since they're retaining salary on his contract, is that allowed?

Yes. They'd only be blocked if they tried to re-acquire him within a year of the original transaction.

 

[rt]

Eh, Demers is expiring. He can go anywhere for a pick at the deadline.
Yandle will 100% be available next off-season if we need to turn to a Plan B post-expansion, draft, free agency, etc. I wouldn't really want him at anything over $4M because of his term. If he only had a year or two left, I'd be more enthusiastic about getting him and ignoring his cap hit.
I'm not incredibly worried about this season except as a development year. Everything should be about setting us up for future success, including allowing our bad contracts to expire and giving us flexibility in the summer.

The shit power play has been sucking the momentum out of the team and making games not fun. I want to watch enjoyable games.

 

[GhostofYotesFan47]

If a player is on the roster, it should mean they are NHL ready. Why not Soderstrom? Let's see what he can do. Can always ship him to Tucson if the results reveal he's not quite there.

We can certainly run him but I doubt we want him in the top 4 to start his career. We'd still need a minimum 1 RD with Goligoski and Demers gone.

 

[_Del_]

The shit power play has been sucking the momentum out of the team and making games not fun. I want to watch enjoyable games.

Everyone wants to win games. I just don't want to be saddled with three years of Yands's contract. It's worth exploring with retention. But there are many options I'd look at first. Especially since we already have Chych and OEL's money locked in on the left side.

I like Yandle. He'd be a big help on the PP, especially with Ollie out. I just don't think that's worth taking on anything more than a $4Mx3 commitment.

When Kessel looked completely dead, I was willing to trade his higher hit for the extra yr of Yandle. Now that Kessel looks like a top-nine winger, there's no real reason to take that contract.

 

[Jakey53]

It's four games. I don't think it's time to panic and pick up a bad contract in Yandle. But Goose and Demers have both been dog poop bad. Revisit in a week.

Yup, keep on playing the kids and give them plenty of TOI to develop. Goose and Demers are gone sometime this year anyway. This team will look different and younger for the start of next year.

 

[rt]

Everyone wants to win games. I just don't want to be saddled with three years of Yands's contract. It's worth exploring with retention. But there are many options I'd look at first. Especially since we already have Chych and OEL's money locked in on the left side.

I like Yandle. He'd be a big help on the PP, especially with Ollie out. I just don't think that's worth taking on anything more than a $4Mx3 commitment.

When Kessel looked completely dead, I was willing to trade his higher hit for the extra yr of Yandle. Now that Kessel looks like a top-nine winger, there's no real reason to take that contract.

Yandle with 25% retained for Demers?

 

[_Del_]

I think Demers gets at least a third at the deadline. Probably a second unless he completely falls off a cliff. I don't think Yandle has that kind of value even with retention. I'd pass, and bet on the fact there was no real camp/preseason for Goose and Demers slow start before I'd do that.

 

[mouser]

@mouser - can Florida acquire Demers? Since they're retaining salary on his contract, is that allowed?

Yes, just a one calendar year restriction on reacquiring the player. The CBA isn’t completely clear if that wipes the salary retention out or not. E.g. if Florida then traded Demers again is the original salary retention still in effect?

 

[WrinkledPossum]

I think Demers can bounce back. His effort is there, his play just isn't good.

I'm not so sure about Goligoski. I'd try and get a 2nd for him ASAP before his value completely tanks. If he continues at the pace he's at their may not be any teams interested.

He's too soft to be a 3rd line shutdown/grit option that a lot of teams like for the playoffs. He isn't a PP specialist.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

Everyone wants to win games. I just don't want to be saddled with three years of Yands's contract. It's worth exploring with retention. But there are many options I'd look at first. Especially since we already have Chych and OEL's money locked in on the left side.

I like Yandle. He'd be a big help on the PP, especially with Ollie out. I just don't think that's worth taking on anything more than a $4Mx3 commitment.

When Kessel looked completely dead, I was willing to trade his higher hit for the extra yr of Yandle. Now that Kessel looks like a top-nine winger, there's no real reason to take that contract.

Are you wanting cash $4Mx3? Or cap? Because salary without rentention looks to be 4.4M AAV. Assuming his bonus for this year has been paid.

 

[Sinurgy]

The shit power play has been sucking the momentum out of the team and making games not fun. I want to watch enjoyable games.

At least this year thanks to covid there's no attendance issues and the fans that do attend are hardcore enough not to be turned off by the lackluster on ice product. It's early though so maybe they'll turn it around. The Coyotes historically start strong and then the wheels come off, maybe this will be the opposite of that. More likely though is the wheels coming off earlier, too bad tanking isn't effective anymore.

Everyone wants to win games.

I think rt's point is that even when you're losing you should at least be watchable.

winning > losing but entertaining > losing

Right now, they're just losing.

 

[lanky]

I wonder if Gogo is pouty about his bro Step getting traded. Whatever has got him playing so badly, I think he'll get over it. He was one of our best D last year.

 

[ParisSaintGermain]

I wonder if Gogo is pouty about his bro Step getting traded. Whatever has got him playing so badly, I think he'll get over it. He was one of our best D last year.

I think Gogo (and perhaps Demers) is the type of guy who often needs a third of a normal regular season to get going. But by the end of a normal season, we all feel he/they have had a good/ok years because the last two thirds have overridden the first section.

However this will quickly become a major issue in this short season, when you meet a zillion time the same teams that will adjust and pile on that weakness game after game.

I really hope Tocchet goes for a full "you are good you are in, you are bad you are out" approach this year.