Speculation: Coyotes 2021 Offseason Roster Discussion Thread #1

[Coyotedroppings]

IIRC you once posted that you played hockey at a high level. I've always wondered how scouts can project which very successful young players in the AHL, CHL and colleges projected well in the NHL and which did not. What do they see or not see?

I’m not a scout and don’t discuss shop with the few that I occasionally interact with. Nor can I define what I see. I can tell you what I have already about Garland. I thought Stone would stick with improved foot speed and I always liked Buntings game, to name a few that come to mind. Stone lost the foot speed he created due to the knee injury and I’m not convinced Bunting will have longevity.
Oh and I saw Greg Adam’s as a sophomore at NAU quite a bit and thought he had potential. Skated with Pat Vrbeek, Tony Gannato, Brett Hull, to name a few, when we were young and new they had what it would take, barring any disasters.
Not much help huh?

 

[hbk]

I’m not a scout and don’t discuss shop with the few that I occasionally interact with. Nor can I define what I see. I can tell you what I have already about Garland. I thought Stone would stick with improved foot speed and I always liked Buntings game, to name a few that come to mind. Stone lost the foot speed he created due to the knee injury and I’m not convinced Bunting will have longevity.
Oh and I saw Greg Adam’s as a sophomore at NAU quite a bit and thought he had potential. Skated with Pat Vrbeek, Tony Gannato, Brett Hull, to name a few, when we were young and new they had what it would take, barring any disasters.
Not much help huh?

Sat beside a flames scout during Wheeler’s 3rd season after he was drafted (2nd year with the Gophers) and he didn’t think Wheeler would crack a top 6. Maybe a 4th liner.

scouting is an art.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Sat beside a flames scout during Wheeler’s 3rd season after he was drafted (2nd year with the Gophers) and he didn’t think Wheeler would crack a top 6. Maybe a 4th liner.

scouting is an art.

Agee whole heartedly, in fact I thought you were the one that would best answer that question because I believe you interact with scouts more than most.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I’m not a scout and don’t discuss shop with the few that I occasionally interact with. Nor can I define what I see. I can tell you what I have already about Garland. I thought Stone would stick with improved foot speed and I always liked Buntings game, to name a few that come to mind. Stone lost the foot speed he created due to the knee injury and I’m not convinced Bunting will have longevity.
Oh and I saw Greg Adam’s as a sophomore at NAU quite a bit and thought he had potential. Skated with Pat Vrbeek, Tony Gannato, Brett Hull, to name a few, when we were young and new they had what it would take, barring any disasters.
Not much help huh?

edit: for the record,
Im not trying to come off as some braggart here boys. The players I mentioned, blew right by me. If someone told me I was half the player these guys were, I’d be happy.

 

[Jakey53]

edit: for the record,
Im not trying to come off as some braggart here boys. The players I mentioned, blew right by me. If someone told me I was half the player these guys were, I’d be happy.

Just to make it to the NHL takes crazy skills. I don't think people realize how crazy good you have to be. I takes years of practice and even then the chances of even making it to the Junior leagues is slim.

 

[hbk]

I hadn’t played in many years and i played a pickup game with a guy who was a star in the Manitoba Junior Hockey league. He told me at the start. Just go to the net and keep stick on the ice. I lost count how many goals i scored. He did all the work. It was crazy. And he didn't even get a sniff at being drafted.

 

[GhostofYotesFan47]

I hadn’t played in many years and i played a pickup game with a guy who was a star in the Manitoba Junior Hockey league. He told me at the start. Just go to the net and keep stick on the ice. I lost count how many goals i scored. He did all the work. It was crazy. And he didn't even get a sniff at being drafted.

I've had similar experiences. I was playing with undrafted junior guys and NCAA guys in my beer league last year and they were all so skilled. I can't imagine getting on the ice with a 7/8 dman in the NHL and seeing the difference. They would definitely dominate me.

 

[Jagged Ice]

I've had similar experiences. I was playing with undrafted junior guys and NCAA guys in my beer league last year and they were all so skilled. I can't imagine getting on the ice with a 7/8 dman in the NHL and seeing the difference. They would definitely dominate me.

I had the same experience. Was never so embarrassed in my life. It was a 35+ league and I was expecting a laid back fun experience and got my ass handed to me by kids in their 20's who played college and jr. puck. I didn't even play in high school. I grew up in Minny and played pond hockey so some friends of mine said I'd be fine.

 

[rt]

-OEL to VAN for Myers+2nd
-Kuemper to PIT for Jarry+2nd
-Kessel to MIN for Soucy+2nd

 

[rt]

I know Kessel blocked a trade to Minny already. He was with PIT then rather than stuck here with no RT. Plus, Minny looked helpless then. They look awesome now. They had a sub 2.0 GF/GP in the post-season and could obviously use Kessel.

 

[Heldig]

I hadn’t played in many years and i played a pickup game with a guy who was a star in the Manitoba Junior Hockey league. He told me at the start. Just go to the net and keep stick on the ice. I lost count how many goals i scored. He did all the work. It was crazy. And he didn't even get a sniff at being drafted.

My experience was in soccer...played in a tournament with a retired former Canadian national team member (from when the team was horrible). Guy was untouchable. Nobody could get the ball. And he was only playing maybe 50%. Pretty humbling to know that a very average player in soccer circles was massively better at the sport.

 

[Jamieh]

My experience was in soccer...played in a tournament with a retired former Canadian national team member (from when the team was horrible). Guy was untouchable. Nobody could get the ball. And he was only playing maybe 50%. Pretty humbling to know that a very average player in soccer circles was massively better at the sport.

When I was younger I played with Owen Hargreaves, he was in his teens. In my latest go at Eastern Masters Championship we played against Dwayne De Rosario not that long removed from TFC. Let's just say our beer belly team had some trouble with him despite having won the Eastern Masters twice!!!!

 

[Jamieh]

I also played 3v3 for about a decade with the same 40 year olds when their kids and nephews starting joining us. Last year I played Adam Beckman was on the team. First player I ever thought was certain to make it, so good.

 

[PainForShane]

I’m not a scout and don’t discuss shop with the few that I occasionally interact with. Nor can I define what I see. I can tell you what I have already about Garland. I thought Stone would stick with improved foot speed and I always liked Buntings game, to name a few that come to mind. Stone lost the foot speed he created due to the knee injury and I’m not convinced Bunting will have longevity.
Oh and I saw Greg Adam’s as a sophomore at NAU quite a bit and thought he had potential. Skated with Pat Vrbeek, Tony Gannato, Brett Hull, to name a few, when we were young and new they had what it would take, barring any disasters.
Not much help huh?

@Coyotedroppings out of curiosity how did Brett Hull play as a kid? I started following hockey during the 2nd half of his career, seemed like all he did was find soft ice and nail snapshots / one-timers, like an Alex Ovechkin version 1.0. Not saying that doesn't take skill (it absolutely does) but wondering whether he was better at the other stuff (e.g., skating, deking, passing, winning board battles etc) than the other players when he was younger. Thanks!

 

[XX]

-Kessel to MIN for Soucy+2nd

Soucy has come a long way in the last year. I don't think that's close.

 

[Heldig]

@Coyotedroppings out of curiosity how did Brett Hull play as a kid? I started following hockey during the 2nd half of his career, seemed like all he did was find soft ice and nail snapshots / one-timers, like an Alex Ovechkin version 1.0. Not saying that doesn't take skill (it absolutely does) but wondering whether he was better at the other stuff (e.g., skating, deking, passing, winning board battles etc) than the other players when he was younger. Thanks!

Ha ha, I played in a tweeter league (summer sponge hockey) with Hull and Ron Hextall as a teen. Hull played D and basically stood with his stick raised for a slapshot the whole time. Hextall played forward.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

He

@Coyotedroppings out of curiosity how did Brett Hull play as a kid? I started following hockey during the 2nd half of his career, seemed like all he did was find soft ice and nail snapshots / one-timers, like an Alex Ovechkin version 1.0. Not saying that doesn't take skill (it absolutely does) but wondering whether he was better at the other stuff (e.g., skating, deking, passing, winning board battles etc) than the other players when he was younger. Thanks!

wanted to shoot like his Dad alright. That was his game, pretty much up until Hitch got a hold of him.

 

[rt]

Soucy has come a long way in the last year. I don't think that's close.

He was 6th in TOI/GP among Minny D in the playoffs with only about 13min/GP.

During the regular season he got a little more (15min) but was still 6th among Wild D.

He’ll be 27 next month.

Ilya Lyubushkin turned 27 last month. He had more TOI/GP last season.

 

[XX]

He was 6th in TOI/GP among Minny D in the playoffs with only about 13min/GP.

During the regular season he got a little more (15min) but was still 6th among Wild D.

He’ll be 27 next month.

So, entering his prime on a team friendly deal while continually improving?

For a 33 year old mercurial winger that needs to be babysat 5v5, has a NMC, and has a bonus everyone knows AZ doesn't want to pay?

I don't really see it. There are plenty of equivalent or better options on the FA market that don't require giving up assets and are less risky. Given that and the bonus squeeze situation + NMC, I don't see BA getting much value for Phil.

 

[rt]

So, entering his prime on a team friendly deal while continually improving?

For a 33 year old mercurial winger that needs to be babysat 5v5, has a NMC, and has a bonus everyone knows AZ doesn't want to pay?

I don't really see it. There are plenty of equivalent or better options on the FA market that don't require giving up assets and are less risky. Given that and the bonus squeeze situation + NMC, I don't see BA getting much value for Phil.

He’s a WYSIWYG 27 year old #6 D. Kessel was a 30+ goal pace on a terrible offensive team.

 

[XX]

He’s a WYSIWYG 27 year old #6 D.

He and Cole were one of the best third pairs in the league last year. Soucy plays behind Suter-Spurgeon and Brodin-Dumba, so the lack of TOI isn't surprising.

Minny has better options at a lot less cap that don't have nearly the risk of Phil. And he goes with their bend-don't-break style about as well as fire and oil.

The bonus situation plus the NMC will put BA in a weak position. Just taking the 2nd and using the freed up money to pay Garland would be a win under the circumstances.

 

[PainForShane]

So, entering his prime on a team friendly deal while continually improving?

For a 33 year old mercurial winger that needs to be babysat 5v5, has a NMC, and has a bonus everyone knows AZ doesn't want to pay?

I don't really see it. There are plenty of equivalent or better options on the FA market that don't require giving up assets and are less risky. Given that and the bonus squeeze situation + NMC, I don't see BA getting much value for Phil.

We've had this discussion before but Kessel's not nearly as bad as you think he is. Sure he's overpaid by a million or two, but last year he led our team in goals and points, over a full 82 he was on pace for 29G / 63P. And we all know that rightly or wrongly he plays every game (although he does go invisible for long stretches).

Soucy and a 2nd is more than fair from Minnesota's perspective, 30 goal scorers are not that easy to find in this league even if they are overpaid. That said I'd honestly like to see what Kessel could do with a creative offensive talent who actually takes shots and can score once in a while (e.g., someone like Kaprizov).

 

[XX]

We've had this discussion before but Kessel's not as bad as you think he is. Sure he's overpaid by a million or two, but last year he led our team in goals and points, over a full 82 he was on pace for 29G / 63P. And we all know that rightly or wrongly he plays every game (although sometimes he does go invisible).

Soucy and a 2nd is more than fair from Minnesota, 30 goal scorers are not that easy to find in this league even if they are overpaid. That said I'd honestly like to see what Kessel could do with a creative offensive talent who actually takes shots and can score once in a while (e.g., someone like Kaprizov)

The problem isn't Phil. He'd normally be worth a late first at the deadline to the right team in the right situation, maybe a bit more depending on how the market is for scoring wings and how in love someone is with the idea of Phil. Tampa went in hard on a guy like Savard. It happens.

The problem is that he's older, declining a bit, is not a universal plug-and-play style player, has a full NMC, and is owed bonus money that AZ doesn't want to pay. That means he needs to be shipped out before July, which further limits his market. This is normally a player that would be shuffled off for a pick ala Stepan sometime after FA has settled to fill a need. Can't do that if you want to avoid the bonus.

Retaining on Phil more or less defeats the purpose of the trade as well, so that's out of the window, unless someone blows you away. But why would they? There are lots of scoring wingers out there on the market in trade and in the summer that are easier to fit and digest 5v5. If all you are looking for is mercenary scoring, there's lots for hire.

It's bad timing. And every team in the league will know BA doesn't want to eat that bonus. Once it's paid, that's $4.25m right out of the cash budget for a team that has to be very careful about total cash expenditure, for a player that may or may not even be on the roster.

The 'inverse' of this situation is also true; the Coyotes should not be picky about a return at all if they can better allocate that money.

 

[GhostofYotesFan47]

So I'm still in the place of mind that we are stuck with Kessel. I just don't see a move.

If that's the case, Kreider might be a good add to play with Kess. Maybe bring in someone like Bjugstad to center their line?

Kreider's contract is a mess but I think we can make that work in our favor.

Keller for Kreider + Howden + '22 1st + '21 3rd?

Feels like it checks some boxes but maybe I'm out to lunch.

 

[rt]

So I'm still in the place of mind that we are stuck with Kessel. I just don't see a move.

If that's the case, Kreider might be a good add to play with Kess. Maybe bring in someone like Bjugstad to center their line?

Kreider's contract is a mess but I think we can make that work in our favor.

Keller for Kreider + Howden + '22 1st + '21 3rd?

Feels like it checks some boxes but maybe I'm out to lunch.

Big issue there is how depressed Kreider would be to end up here. How much does he decline if he’s unhappy with the trade?