OT: Coronavirus XXIV Version B: The Shit Has Hit the Fan in Europe Again :( Take 2

[SupremeTeam16]

I'm not so sure I fully agree with this. I'm not sure if you have children in school but I have two in elementary. The school my kids go to are very strict on the covid rules. As parents and single parents have returned to their jobs, not many can afford to take two weeks off if their child shows symptoms.

My son had a head cold at the start of October. Our options were: a) do nothing and keep him home in isolation for 14 days and either my wife or I had to take 14 days off to stay home with him (not an option) or b) get the kid tested. If the test came back negative, he was good to go back once symptoms subsided and we had to notify the school he had a test and the result once we learned it. He missed five full days of school, but was exhibiting symptoms for seven. Thankfully when he got sick, it fell on some of my days off and some of my wife's so we didn't miss work.

I can't speak for everyone but this was our specific case and I'm sure there are scores of parents out there doing something similar to us.

We are two full months into the school year and the school they attend have not had any covid cases amongst the staff or students, knock on a whole entire lumber yard of wood.

No doubt it would make for some difficult situations but as we know children are much less likely to exhibit symptoms but are still capable of transfer and being in school for hours offers plenty of opportunity for transfer.

If I was seeing comparable numbers of school aged children being tested as people in the 20-40 range with lower infection numbers I’d be all for scaling back social activities, but that’s not the case. Kids are being tested much less and I’d wager if testing numbers were in line with other age groups then infection numbers would be right there too and that’s what they’re afraid of and that’s why they haven’t put an emphasis on testing school age kids at the same rate even though they are much more likely to be asymptomatic and carrying the virus while showing slight or no symptoms.

Until we see comparable testing numbers across all age groups showing that definitively the activities of one group is contributing disproportionately to cases then we really don’t know for a fact that social gatherings are the main culprit.

Numbers were stable for months before kids went back to school.I find it much more plausible that kids returning to school is driving swelling numbers more then “covid fatigue” amongst the gen pop. The timeline supports the theory.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Regional police forces will enforce Covid laws ‘as they see fit’ over Christmas
Police do not currently have the power to enter people’s homes involuntarily in order to check compliance with coronavirus laws, even in “very high” areas under the tightest restrictions.
"Police do not currently have the power to enter people's homes." That is an odd way to phrase it.
Mr Hewitt said there would be an increase in enforcement activity after police leaders received extra funding from the Home Office.
He promised a “shift towards quicker enforcement against those knowingly breaking the rules”, adding: “Where people don’t listen to police officers’ encouragement then we will take action. That is our job and I believe the public expect us to do that.”

I wonder what's next.

Paranoia

 

[Drivesaitl]

No doubt it would make for some difficult situations but as we know children are much less likely to exhibit symptoms but are still capable of transfer and being in school for hours offers plenty of opportunity for transfer.

If I was seeing comparable numbers of school aged children being tested as people in the 20-40 range with lower infection numbers I’d be all for scaling back social activities, but that’s not the case. Kids are being tested much less and I’d wager if testing numbers were in line with other age groups then infection numbers would be right there too and that’s what they’re afraid of and that’s why they haven’t put an emphasis on testing school age kids at the same rate even though they are much more likely to be asymptomatic and carrying the virus while showing slight or no symptoms.

Until we see comparable testing numbers across all age groups showing that definitively the activities of one group is contributing disproportionately to cases then we really don’t know for a fact that social gatherings are the main culprit.

Numbers were stable for months before kids went back to school.I find it much more plausible that kids returning to school is driving swelling numbers more then “covid fatigue” amongst the gen pop. The timeline supports the theory.

Numbers were increasing in Edmonton area before school even started. I mean not to the degree that they are now, but there was steady increases in cases. Majority of these alleged to have been through gatherings, church events, palliative facilities and work places. particularly packing plants which have been a problem throughout.

Just getting back to some of what you stated earlier, but there isn't strong differential in those tested between age 10-19 and older cohorts. Especially amongst males. But there is drastic difference in rate of infection of the cohorts between age 20-50 within which a large proportion of the active and new cases exist. This range is getting covid at a much higher rate than anybody else.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

No doubt it would make for some difficult situations but as we know children are much less likely to exhibit symptoms but are still capable of transfer and being in school for hours offers plenty of opportunity for transfer.

If I was seeing comparable numbers of school aged children being tested as people in the 20-40 range with lower infection numbers I’d be all for scaling back social activities, but that’s not the case. Kids are being tested much less and I’d wager if testing numbers were in line with other age groups then infection numbers would be right there too and that’s what they’re afraid of and that’s why they haven’t put an emphasis on testing school age kids at the same rate even though they are much more likely to be asymptomatic and carrying the virus while showing slight or no symptoms.

Until we see comparable testing numbers across all age groups showing that definitively the activities of one group is contributing disproportionately to cases then we really don’t know for a fact that social gatherings are the main culprit.

Numbers were stable for months before kids went back to school.I find it much more plausible that kids returning to school is driving swelling numbers more then “covid fatigue” amongst the gen pop. The timeline supports the theory.

I'm not blaming this on schools. We just had a family holiday and lo and behold, 10-14 days after cases are blowing up across Canada. If school was the culprit, the numbers would have been exploding in early October, not the end.

Where I live, the mall is full of shoppers. Grocery stores are about 50/50 from those who wear masks to those who don't. I observe about the same ratio of those who use hand sanitizer and wiping down carts before entering whereas before it was about 80%.

There is no doubt some kids are asymptomatic and are spreaders as you can see by the schools affected in the province but I don't think it's fair to blame the school system entirely when hospital cases, retirement homes and those who attended large social gatherings are still seemingly the hardest hit or biggest contributors.

 

[MaxR11]

We're not doing well in Edmonton with over 2000 active cases per mil. And a low pop density. @Drivesaitl is right about Edm's higher dunderhead per capita assessment.

 

[bellagiobob]

I think there would be hope if we had an end date. To me, the uncertainty of when this will end is greater than the issue itself. Will it be 6 months? 1 year? 2 years? 4 years? No one can give a definitive or certain answer. With something like a war, you see indicators of an end coming, such as during WW2 with the invasion of Normandy, the fall of Africa, and finally, troops entering Berlin. The madness that is this virus, is that there is none of that. Yes, we surely know more about it, but that doesn't mean we are near an end of it.

Even with the great wars, it took years before there were signs it was ending. We are about 9 months into the virus in NA, so barely a blip in war years. And we do have somewhat of an end date, when we have vaccines that are ready, which sounds like will be anywhere from 2 - 9 months, depending on who you want to believe.

 

[Spawn]

We're not doing well in Edmonton with over 2000 active cases per mil. And a low pop density. @Drivesaitl is right about Edm's higher dunderhead per capita assessment.

I feel like some of this thought is counter productive. Cases are jumping all over the Western world right now. Many European countries are needing to reintroduce some very strict restrictions to handle the rise in infections. This isn't a case of "dunderheads" in Edmonton. This is a case of a pandemic that all of the experts predicted would give us a reprieve in the summer months and come back with a worse 2nd wave in the fall/winter. It's exactly what we're seeing all over the country and across many parts of the world.

The unfortunate reality is that without some really strict measures put in place by our government it doesn't seem like this will be controllable over the next few months.

There's no doubt we're struggling in Edmonton right now. But we need to support each other. Not shame those who are sick whether that is through some poor choices. some unavoidable choices or sometimes just plain old bad luck.

Don't get me wrong. It drives me crazy when I see people disregarding public guidance. But damn... we're all in the shit here.

Anyways... sorry, I'll get off my high horse lol. I just think that with what we're seeing across the world there is a heck of a lot more too it than some "dunderheads" in our city.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

I get that kids out of school creates spin off issues but there are manageable solutions. It’s just easier for them to point to other areas like weather and social gatherings where they deem the spin off issues less severe while downplaying the effects of school openings.

My whole issue is don’t shit in my hand and tell me I shit in my own hand. It’s no wonder so many people don’t listen to officials and have such a deep mistrust of government agencies. They’re part of the reason why misinformation is so rampant and people don’t know who to believe.

In North America we are living in one of the worlds first mediaocracies. It's really fascinating. The Covid virus has really laid bare this obvious observation. It is why the millennials I know no longer watch the news or buy regular cable. They just go internet and buy Netflix and a few other online goodies. That of course has its consequences as one voted green in the last election because he thought they were going to plant trees. Guy's a genius too.

Mainstream media really are their own worst enemies. It's a shame all form of neutrality disappeared. IMO, their future looks bleak.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

yep. The school environment is monitored, led, has protocols in place, has system developed to handle this, and is much better than people that are at mass gatherings, that are not inclined to follow any direction, not wear masks, and eat and share food and drink together. One activity is much higher risk. The study cited earlier this evening also indicates this.

Good to here btw how well it is going in the school your kids are going to and how much they have things running optimally.

They actually have a pretty decent protocol. All entry points are limited to one class, ie: the main doors at the front are designated for the grade 3 and 3/4 split class. The doors are locked, no public access allowed in for anyone including parents. Another parent who has two kids in the same grades as my two has been called twice this year to immediately come and get their child as they both told their teacher they felt like they had a sore throat. They were immediately put into an isolation room until said parent arrived to pick up their child. Parents then call the school and say "I'm at the front doors" and the child is brought out by a staff member. Both times their sore throats were related to bacterial infections and non-covid related. I was never really scared to put my kids back in school but the way this school is handling the situation has really eased any doubt in my mind.

At the end of the day, it's a numbers game and despite their best intentions and protocols at some point it is almost a certainty a child or staffer will eventually test positive for it but we'll cross that bridge when we have to.

 

[GMofOilers]

Take your vitamin D folks.

 

[Alik Bordour]

If this were even a little like the truth, at least half of the population would be infected. More like another advertisement for masks, apparently not enough garbage is thrown into the ocean for them.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

If this were even a little like the truth, at least half of the population would be infected. More like another advertisement for masks, apparently not enough garbage is thrown into the ocean for them.

Maybe more than half the population is engaging in safe practices and not having extended parties?

 

[SK13]

I feel like some of this thought is counter productive. Cases are jumping all over the Western world right now. Many European countries are needing to reintroduce some very strict restrictions to handle the rise in infections. This isn't a case of "dunderheads" in Edmonton. This is a case of a pandemic that all of the experts predicted would give us a reprieve in the summer months and come back with a worse 2nd wave in the fall/winter. It's exactly what we're seeing all over the country and across many parts of the world.

The unfortunate reality is that without some really strict measures put in place by our government it doesn't seem like this will be controllable over the next few months.

There's no doubt we're struggling in Edmonton right now. But we need to support each other. Not shame those who are sick whether that is through some poor choices. some unavoidable choices or sometimes just plain old bad luck.

Don't get me wrong. It drives me crazy when I see people disregarding public guidance. But damn... we're all in the shit here.

Anyways... sorry, I'll get off my high horse lol. I just think that with what we're seeing across the world there is a heck of a lot more too it than some "dunderheads" in our city.

I don't really care to join hands and kumbuya with Covid-deniers and the like (we're *NOT* in this together as long as some of us don't acknowledge the problem and act right about it), but I also doubt Edmonton has more "dunderheads". Calgary has actually added more cases than Edmonton this week and I think that will continue to equalize. I haven't seen anyone flout the mask rule at the grocery store. I keep hearing that restaurants and bars are dead. There isn't a huge influx of publicized super spreader events in town and schools are better than I feared they would be. I doubt we're much worse collectively than anywhere else in Canada.

The fact of the matter is that the consensus expert opinion was that there was going to be a worldwide second wave in the fall, and that this was likely to be the worst point for the virus in the entire pandemic. If we were all acting responsible it might be less of a problem, but we'd still be experiencing growth and record cases.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

We're not doing well in Edmonton with over 2000 active cases per mil. And a low pop density. @Drivesaitl is right about Edm's higher dunderhead per capita assessment.

mostly due to outbreaks in hospitals and long-term care facilities here in Edmonton:

Acute care facilities

• Leduc Community Hospital
• Misericordia Community Hospital, Edmonton
• Royal Alexandra Hospital, Edmonton
• University of Alberta Hospital (Mazankowski Alberta Heart Institute), Edmonton

Long term care facilities

• Capital Care, Lynnwood, Edmonton
• Capital Care, Norwood, Edmonton
• Capital Care, Strathcona, Sherwood Park
• Edmonton Chinatown Care Centre
• Edmonton General Care Centre
• Extendicare Eaux Claires, Edmonton
• Good Samaritan, Pembina Village, Evansburg
• Kipnes Centre for Veterans, Edmonton
• Lifestyle Options – Whitemud, Edmonton
• Millwoods Shepherd’s Care Centre, Edmonton
• South Terrace Continuing Care, Edmonton
• Youville Home, St. Albert

Supportive living/home living sites

• Balwin Villa, Edmonton
• Capital Care Dickinsfield adult duplexes, Edmonton
• Garneau Hall, Edmonton
• Ironwood Estates, St. Albert
• Lewis Estates Retirement Residence, Edmonton
• Lifestyle Options Terra Losa, Edmonton
• Spirit of our Youth – McKenzie Home, Edmonton
• St. Albert Retirement Residence

Other facilities and settings

• Amnor Powder Coating Ltd., Edmonton
• Canada Bread Company, Edmonton
• CCI Manufacturing, Edmonton
• Edmonton Remand Centre
• Hello Fresh warehouse, Edmonton
• Hope Mission, Edmonton
• Inferno Fitness, Sherwood Park
• Private gatherings (2), Edmonton
• Quantum Lifecycle Partners LP, Edmonton
• Recochem Inc., Nisku
• Silent-Aire, Nisku
• Sport cohort, Edmonton
• Walmart Supercentre (Calgary trail location), Edmonton

Cases in Alberta

so I guess you're angry at the outbreak at Inferno fitness, a Walmart, a couple of private gatherings and a "sport cohort"?

 

[Alik Bordour]

Maybe more than half the population is engaging in safe practices and not having extended parties?

And maybe more than half of the population does not hide in the corners, but goes to work, restaurants, etc.
Specific examples from MY WORK, more than 30 people, small indoor space, no ventilation, no muzzles of course, 2 separate cases of covid, in summer and autumn, light/mild cases, they went to work with a cough until the temperature rises, but no one else at work got sick.

 

[Spawn]

I don't really care to join hands and kumbuya with Covid-deniers and the like (we're *NOT* in this together as long as some of us don't acknowledge the problem and act right about it), but I also doubt Edmonton has more "dunderheads". Calgary has actually added more cases than Edmonton this week and I think that will continue to equalize. I haven't seen anyone flout the mask rule at the grocery store. I keep hearing that restaurants and bars are dead. There isn't a huge influx of publicized super spreader events in town and schools are better than I feared they would be. I doubt we're much worse collectively than anywhere else in Canada.

The fact of the matter is that the consensus expert opinion was that there was going to be a worldwide second wave in the fall, and that this was likely to be the worst point for the virus in the entire pandemic. If we were all acting responsible it might be less of a problem, but we'd still be experiencing growth and record cases.

Oh I agree with you on the first part. There is a certain percentage of people actively rallying against doing the right thing. Those people, IMO, are not only tremendously insensitive and offensive, but are also dangerous.

But I don’t think that is what is causing cases to sore around the world. It might be contributing to it. But I don’t think the average day to day person in Edmonton that is getting sick is part of that malicious group.

 

[Dorian2]

We're not doing well in Edmonton with over 2000 active cases per mil. And a low pop density. @Drivesaitl is right about Edm's higher dunderhead per capita assessment.

I'm just wondering where the over 2000/million is coming from? By the active cases you've posted there's 1089/million in all of Alberta.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I'm just wondering where the over 2000/million is coming from? By the active cases you've posted there's 1089/million in all of Alberta.

Just answering on behalf Edmonton zone has around 2300 active cases with a population of approximately 1.4M people. So the poster overestimated the per million numbers here but corrected they would be around 1800/M, still astronomically high. (edit. Edmonton zone is exactly 1808/M its hard to navigate where the info is on AHS site but I just found the listings in "Covid 19 status map" page.

As far as the 1089 you appear to be reading columns wrong. That is the rate per million for the province, given as comparison, The current active cases throughout the province are of course much higher number, 4,793.

The post compares Edmontons approximate cases per million (not given in any source so approximated) with the other known numbers in the chart. As demonstration of how off the charts the Edmonton rates and numbers are.

For instance Toronto, a City with several times the population of Edmonton, was alarmed when it hit 300 new cases in a day. Edmonton has been flirting with that total as well.

 

[Dorian2]

Just answering on behalf Edmonton zone has around 2300 active cases with a population of approximately 1.4M people. So the poster overestimated the per million numbers here but corrected they would be around 1800/M, still astronomically high.

As far as the 1089 you appear to be reading columns wrong. That is the rate per million for the province, given as comparison, The current active cases throughout the province are of course much higher number, 4,793.

The post compares Edmontons approximate cases per million (not given in any source so approximated) with the other known numbers in the chart. As demonstration of how off the charts the Edmonton rates and numbers are.

For instance Toronto, a City with several times the population of Edmonton, was alarmed when it hit 300 new cases in a day. Edmonton has been flirting with that total as well.

Thanks for the clarification. Makes sense.

 

[MaxR11]

mostly due to outbreaks in hospitals and long-term care facilities here in Edmonton:



Cases in Alberta

so I guess you're angry at the outbreak at Inferno fitness, a Walmart, a couple of private gatherings and a "sport cohort"?

Where do you think these outbreaks originate from? Social gatherings. They create a high enough base number of cases and then people go out to work/the gym etc and cause and outbreak. Long term facilities and hospitals are at the whim of the population and how well they keep the numbers at bay and a certain portion of our population is doing a crappy job as far as being responsible and trying their best to keep spread down.

 

[Little Fury]

Like anything this is a choice for people to think about. We're all responsible for whatever mental outlook we have and choosing doom and gloom is always an ill advised choice. Choosing hope is a choice. Gotta say it, but people throughout recorded history had it a hell of a lot harder than anybody can even dream about today and those people were filled with hope and unbridled optimism at the slightest chances of being able to build lives and some prosperity.

That we have people moping about how hard they have it now, I'll say it, is a disgrace to the forefathers that worked hard to bring you to New World lands with untapped resources and opportunities. Living in the first world, born here, having what others in the world can only dream of, and being despondent about it? Time for a reality check.

If a moderate pandemic kicked the shit out of our collective fortitude what would a WW or a great depression or a Cold war do?

Where did our collective resilience go?

I think you're really underestimating how precarious many people's situation was before the pandemic even started. What COVID did was expose a lot of those issues, which makes me wonder if we even know what normal is and if it's worth going back to the status quo ante. And while I do agree that we're a soft society that has been pacified by cheap consumer goods and easy credit, I don't think that's a problem of individuals. Telling people who've lost their jobs or are uncertain about their futures that they have it good because there are starving children in the third world does FA to fix the structural problems in our society.

 

[Drivesaitl]

just random comment to the thread looking through restrictions but I wonder how many residents near such places have absolutely embraced the months long closure of nightclubs and all the incessant problems that living near one of these entails? I mean this would be seen as a huge plus by anybody but the owners of the respective clubs, and Edmonton sure has some terribly run clubs that just harm the neighboring communities so much.

I try to look for positives. Less bars making profits, less people in bars, Nightclubs being closed entirely, Casinos being closed entirely. I see these as huge plusses. Too bad it takes a pandemic to bring about this kind of change. Would wish for it always.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

just random comment to the thread looking through restrictions but I wonder how many residents near such places have absolutely embraced the months long closure of nightclubs and all the incessant problems that living near one of these entails? I mean this would be seen as a huge plus by anybody but the owners of the respective clubs, and Edmonton sure has some terribly run clubs that just harm the neighboring communities so much.

I try to look for positives. Less bars making profits, less people in bars, Nightclubs being closed entirely, Casinos being closed entirely. I see these as huge plusses. Too bad it takes a pandemic to bring about this kind of change. Would wish for it always.

Nothing like wanting to see less jobs in the world as a huge plus
and no one is forcing people to live near a nightclub

 

[Drivesaitl]

I think you're really underestimating how precarious many people's situation was before the pandemic even started. What COVID did was expose a lot of those issues, which makes me wonder if we even know what normal is and if it's worth going back to the status quo ante. And while I do agree that we're a soft society that has been pacified by cheap consumer goods and easy credit, I don't think that's a problem of individuals. Telling people who've lost their jobs or are uncertain about their futures that they have it good because there are starving children in the third world does FA to fix the structural problems in our society.

So what do you suggest? Some of the messages I left in the thread were just rebuttal, and based on the need for people to be more pragmatic, autonomous, and sensible in life decisions.

I do feel that theres been far too much attempt to essentially bubble wrap life, and having worked decades in the field a quantum change has occured. Figuratively we used to teach people how to fish, now we're providing all the fish. Many measures i see taking place empower endless mistakes, empower harmful behaviors, and lead to more problems.

In anycase my only intent was to reframe feelings of despondency and replace them with some other possible feelings people could be having. Mastery over feelings, emotions, sense of well being also being essential. I guess they call it emotional IQ now. In general in our society I think we need to move back to achievement empowerment and autonomy messages. Unintended harm comes from trying to provide everything to everybody all the time. Plus that its an impossible mission.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Where do you think these outbreaks originate from? Social gatherings. They create a high enough base number of cases and then people go out to work/the gym etc and cause and outbreak. Long term facilities and hospitals are at the whim of the population and how well they keep the numbers at bay and a certain portion of our population is doing a crappy job as far as being responsible and trying their best to keep spread down.

it's almost as if this virus is acting the same way for every virus does during the cold and flu season