Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part XI
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Senssmileletsgo said:
Just reread his post and you were right. I misread that
The point I was making is still the same. It's not just about freedom of choice
Sensmileletsgo
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- Oct 22, 2018
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Sorry, do you mind briefly elaborating? I’m still a little unsure what we are talking about
Lol fair enough. My fault sorry
I was saying that the decision to wear a mask, socially distance, following public health measuresetc isn't just a matter of a simple choice. It goes well beyond that, especially now. It has direct consequences on whether other people live or die
Sensmileletsgo
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- Oct 22, 2018
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I get what you’re saying about the basic health measures for sure. It’s sad for anyone that challenges that IMO.
When it comes to the economy and employment though, at what point do we draw the line? This is something that our governments have been struggling with, and it sounds like that line may extend into construction and manufacturing jobs in certain areas.
Unfortunately you can't roll out what you can't get. Anyway my daughter got her 1st shot, we are all going to be pissed, to say the least if there is no vaccine to get the 2nd shot.
PromisedLand
I need more FOOD
True; its human nature I guess; unless it hits close to home (i.e. loved ones) its not my problem. Under normal circumstances that is fine I guess. When people do drugs, for example, you can talk to them about the consequences of doing drugs but in the end the only people being impacted physically is the person doing the drugs and may be the mental health of their family.
It is the same with I want to do a 100 in a residential area; not wear seat belts or drink and drive. May be you won't kill someone but may ruin their life as they have medical issues for the rest of their life.
Some jackass hit my cousin 4 years ago; she still has concussion symptoms; has problems with her spine and cannot concentrate while working
Covid on the other hand is a different beast like you said; It's not just the immediate person but other people as well. CDC released a study that 25 to 30 percent of the "covid survivors" have lingering health symptoms that could be life long. And this study includes young and healthy folks without underlying health conditions.
All people had to do was wear masks, maintain social distancing, wash their hands and be vigilant and we wouldn't have lockdowns. But here we are.....
In the end, I think that we have failed as people as a whole; not giving a flying F about our fellow human beings and that has cost not only public health problems with hospitals at risk of being overrun but also serious economic losses.
There is no one to blame but people themselves; especially the ones who oppose covid and dont take any responsibility. The ones yelling the loudest anti-covid, anti-masks and anti-lockdown are the biggest reason behind the spread and lockdowns. The irony is staring us right in the face.
The Hanging Jowl
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- Apr 2, 2017
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Sorry if this is personal but is your daughter vulnerable or is she a front-line worker?
She is frontline and comes into contact with covid at least a couple of times a week. She asked me for advice, I said as I say here I wouldn't take it. She is young, healthy. Unfortunately she also asked her brother who got a specialists degree in cell and molecular biology from u of T. He told her he wouldn't think twice and for her to do it. She took his advice... go figure.
I’m getting so tired of hearing this. Like any rules since the dawn of time, there are people that will break them. As frustrating as it may be for all of us who follow the rules, we are not a monolith for better or worse. It’s no excuse to strip all citizens of their rights and freedoms.
The focus needs to be on protecting the most vulnerable and distributing the vaccine. That has been an epic failure so far (like most things managed by the government). Police enforced curfews, among many other government mandates, are completely illogical. Acting as if we are children needing punishment is ridiculous and insulting. Yes, the virus is serious and everyone should social distance, wear a mask, etc. But if I still happen to contract the virus, I’m not going to be pointing fingers or blaming people. It is what it is at that point. No one is responsible for my personal health but me.
Scion
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- May 25, 2012
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It goes both ways, the impact to the economy also has an impact on mortality. It's not as simple as many of you are attempting to make it seem.
There is a reason that this debate has created so much division and debate. And contrary to what both sides think it is not because the other side is selfish or brainwashed.
Scion
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Also I cant quote the past thread, but I just wanted to give my thoughts and prayers to Pookie for his sick father. That is horrible and I wouldnt wish that on anyone.
Scion
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There is absolutely no way for me to prove this and I acknowledge that I may be wrong. But I do believe that the restrictions would have been more beneficial if businesses were allowed to stay open with strict measures and fined and or locked down if they were unable to follow guidelines.
Implementing regional lockdowns and picking and choosing which businesses to lockdown was unfair and irrational. I also believe full lockdowns and curfews are foolish because it was never realistic to expect the entire population to stay at home for a prolonged period of time. You have to give people outlets and some freedoms, that is just reality.
Implementing regional lockdowns and picking and choosing which businesses to lockdown was unfair and irrational. I also believe full lockdowns and curfews are foolish because it was never realistic to expect the entire population to stay at home for a prolonged period of time. You have to give people outlets and some freedoms, that is just reality.
Scion
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It's human nature to convince ourselves that people on the other side of an issue fit into a defined box. It is rarely that simple though.
Pookie
Wear a mask
- Oct 23, 2013
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With our economy so dependent on the US market, would drawing a line here make any difference?
Latest stats have our export business down 4.7% whereas the import business is up 1.8% year over year.
Exactly, in the beginning when contact tracing was possible if Covid was spread through your business, everybody that was there isolates 14 days. The business closed for 1 week and deep cleaned floor to ceiling.
What did we get? Gee a barbershop somewhere spread covid. We are closing every barber shop in the province. Where in my experience the barbershop was following procedure to the letter. Wait outside, wear mask, scan temperature, take my name and phone number. Sorry Bud not enough we are closing you down. Just a terrible plan in my opinion.
Sensmileletsgo
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- Oct 22, 2018
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Make a difference for what? Our covid numbers or economy? It will probably lower our covid numbers while hurting our economy.
Scion
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It's funny you mention barber shops because a good friend of mine works at one and his experience is exactly what you outlined above.
Pookie
Wear a mask
- Oct 23, 2013
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To inform our discussion, this is the "Detailed household final consumption expenditure data for Canada ending Q3. (Q4 is not yet published).
Detailed household final consumption expenditure, Canada, quarterly
Dollars are in constant dollars in order to account for any inflation. And are presented in the 1,000,000's.
As you can see, overall consumer spending is down 11.2B from prior Q3. With a good percentage of that variance coming from declines in spending on Transportation and Air fare.
We are spending quite a bit more on food, new vehicles, alcohol, furnishings, sporting goods, appliances, communication and garden supplies.
This obviously does not count the underground economy in which contractors are paid in cash, though estimates for 2020 suggest this market is thriving like never before.
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Detailed household final consumption expenditure, Canada, quarterly
Dollars are in constant dollars in order to account for any inflation. And are presented in the 1,000,000's.
As you can see, overall consumer spending is down 11.2B from prior Q3. With a good percentage of that variance coming from declines in spending on Transportation and Air fare.
We are spending quite a bit more on food, new vehicles, alcohol, furnishings, sporting goods, appliances, communication and garden supplies.
This obviously does not count the underground economy in which contractors are paid in cash, though estimates for 2020 suggest this market is thriving like never before.
| Estimates | Q3 2019 | Q3 2020 | Variance |
| Expenditure by non-residents in Canada | -8,777 | -2,588 | 6,189 |
| Housing, water, electricity, gas and other fuels | 71,320 | 73,366 | 2,046 |
| Food and non-alcoholic beverages | 26,342 | 28,004 | 1,662 |
| Food | 23,400 | 24,801 | 1,401 |
| Furnishings, household equipment and other goods and services related to the dwelling and property | 16,473 | 17,837 | 1,364 |
| Imputed rental fees for housing | 46,194 | 47,344 | 1,150 |
| New trucks, vans and sport utility vehicles | 9,951 | 10,900 | 949 |
| Alcoholic beverages, tobacco and cannabis | 10,280 | 11,122 | 842 |
| Furniture and furnishings | 4,887 | 5,475 | 588 |
| Pharmaceutical products and other medical products (except cannabis) | 5,593 | 6,180 | 587 |
| Cannabis products for non-medical use (licensed) | 459 | 1,027 | 568 |
| Alcoholic beverages | 5,463 | 5,969 | 506 |
| Games, toys and hobbies | 1,716 | 2,217 | 501 |
| Equipment for sport, camping and open-air recreation | 1,437 | 1,919 | 482 |
| Information processing equipment | 1,454 | 1,927 | 473 |
| Insurance and financial services | 28,837 | 29,307 | 470 |
| Paid rental fees for housing | 15,586 | 16,025 | 439 |
| Major household appliances | 1,711 | 2,118 | 407 |
| Major durables for outdoor recreation | 1,566 | 1,889 | 323 |
| Communications | 8,251 | 8,568 | 317 |
| Audio-visual and photographic equipment | 2,512 | 2,825 | 313 |
| Electricity | 4,539 | 4,823 | 284 |
| Mutual funds | 6,652 | 6,913 | 261 |
| Non-alcoholic beverages | 2,942 | 3,203 | 261 |
| Telecommunication services | 7,513 | 7,754 | 241 |
| Other appliances, articles and products for personal care | 4,653 | 4,887 | 234 |
| Major tools and equipment | 797 | 989 | 192 |
| Other non-durable household goods | 2,160 | 2,346 | 186 |
| Recording media | 731 | 907 | 176 |
| Pets and pet food | 1,230 | 1,404 | 174 |
| Garden products, plants and flowers | 964 | 1,119 | 155 |
| Implicit deposit charges | 3,318 | 3,463 | 145 |
| Small electric household appliances | 567 | 691 | 124 |
| Materials for the maintenance and repair of the dwelling | 724 | 848 | 124 |
| Other semi-durable household goods | 1,970 | 2,089 | 119 |
| Trusteed pension funds | 1,819 | 1,911 | 92 |
| Therapeutic appliances and equipment | 1,193 | 1,284 | 91 |
| Jewellery, clocks and watches | 1,178 | 1,256 | 78 |
| Small tools and miscellaneous accessories | 769 | 845 | 76 |
| Water supply and sanitation services | 1,739 | 1,804 | 65 |
| Household textiles | 897 | 957 | 60 |
| Telecommunication equipment | 406 | 465 | 59 |
| Insurance related to transport | 2,029 | 2,084 | 55 |
| Electrical appliances for personal care | 194 | 248 | 54 |
| Property insurance | 762 | 808 | 46 |
| Other vehicles | 848 | 893 | 45 |
| Veterinary and other services for pets | 799 | 834 | 35 |
| Miscellaneous printed matter and stationery and drawing materials | 475 | 509 | 34 |
| Undertaking and other funeral services | 554 | 584 | 30 |
| Stock and bond commissions | 1,128 | 1,147 | 19 |
| Postal services | 332 | 349 | 17 |
| Life insurance | 2,784 | 2,799 | 15 |
| Spare parts and accessories for vehicles | 4,515 | 4,530 | 15 |
| Implicit loan charges | 3,776 | 3,787 | 11 |
| Health insurance | 1,776 | 1,786 | 10 |
| Carpets and other floor coverings | 193 | 201 | 8 |
| Cannabis products for medical use | 195 | 201 | 6 |
| Gas | 1,677 | 1,676 | -1 |
| Services for the maintenance and repair of the dwelling | 119 | 113 | -6 |
| Photographic services | 228 | 220 | -8 |
| Other fuels | 742 | 733 | -9 |
| Taxi and limousine | 356 | 344 | -12 |
| Musical instruments and major durables for indoor recreation | 336 | 321 | -15 |
| Water transport | 109 | 79 | -30 |
| Repair of personal and household goods except vehicles | 588 | 552 | -36 |
| Tobacco | 3,163 | 3,121 | -42 |
| Child care services in the home | 268 | 226 | -42 |
| Cable, satellite and other program distribution services | 2,126 | 2,083 | -43 |
| Other personal effects | 808 | 764 | -44 |
| Books | 719 | 674 | -45 |
| University education | 2,410 | 2,358 | -52 |
| Railway transport | 75 | 16 | -59 |
| Other social services | 2,115 | 2,047 | -68 |
| Cleaning of clothing | 308 | 240 | -68 |
| Newspapers and periodicals | 340 | 262 | -78 |
| Clothing materials, other articles of clothing and clothing accessories | 1,113 | 1,033 | -80 |
| Used motor vehicles | 4,297 | 4,216 | -81 |
| Other services related to the operation of transport equipment | 547 | 450 | -97 |
| Footwear | 1,983 | 1,886 | -97 |
| Parking | 725 | 620 | -105 |
| Maintenance and repair of vehicles | 2,549 | 2,444 | -105 |
| Renting and leasing of personal and household goods except passenger vehicles | 807 | 692 | -115 |
| Passenger vehicle renting | 323 | 197 | -126 |
| Legal and other services | 2,166 | 2,037 | -129 |
| Other education | 2,439 | 2,278 | -161 |
| Hospital services | 723 | 544 | -179 |
| Other actual financial charges | 4,793 | 4,609 | -184 |
| Interurban bus | 219 | 31 | -188 |
| Cannabis products for non-medical use (unlicensed) | 1,195 | 1,005 | -190 |
| Education | 4,849 | 4,636 | -213 |
| Other transport services | 647 | 430 | -217 |
| Cinemas | 252 | 27 | -225 |
| Other services related to the dwelling and property | 1,127 | 882 | -245 |
| Other cultural services | 759 | 379 | -380 |
| Personal grooming services | 2,027 | 1,592 | -435 |
| Garments | 9,297 | 8,851 | -446 |
| Child care services outside the home | 1,319 | 867 | -452 |
| New passenger cars | 3,344 | 2,777 | -567 |
| Urban transit | 1,052 | 413 | -639 |
| Clothing and footwear | 12,701 | 12,010 | -691 |
| Recreation and culture | 24,137 | 23,381 | -756 |
| Miscellaneous goods and services | 15,282 | 14,508 | -774 |
| Alcoholic beverage services | 2,616 | 1,746 | -870 |
| Health | 12,825 | 11,953 | -872 |
| Recreational and sporting services | 2,748 | 1,630 | -1,118 |
| Accommodation services | 2,988 | 1,759 | -1,229 |
| Out-patient services | 5,121 | 3,744 | -1,377 |
| Games of chance | 3,745 | 2,235 | -1,510 |
| Fuels and lubricants | 11,925 | 10,273 | -1,652 |
| Food and non-alcoholic beverage services | 14,001 | 10,964 | -3,037 |
| Net expenditure abroad | 1,374 | -1,710 | -3,084 |
| Air transport | 3,939 | 405 | -3,534 |
| Food, beverage and accommodation services | 19,605 | 14,469 | -5,136 |
| Transport | 45,421 | 39,018 | -6,403 |
| Expenditure by Canadians abroad | 10,151 | 878 | -9,273 |
| Household final consumption expenditure | 297,697 | 286,469 | -11,228 |
Pookie
Wear a mask
- Oct 23, 2013
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I'm saying that if you say, screw it... no more lockdown... just go ahead and spend.... that won't do anything for the export market which relies heavily on the US as our largest trading partner.
Manufacturing jobs won't come back just because you can get a haircut. Someone has to buy the products we make and by and large, those are Americans.
Our economic recovery (and collapse) is really dependent on what they do.
80% of the economy is service industry
And service industry has been obliterated
And service industry has been obliterated
Muston Atthews
Bunch of Bangerz
I said it in the last thread but it’s going to be real fun for us shift workers who go in before curfew and get off after curfew to get anything done.
not to mention ramming people into these stores in an even smaller time frames for those who can go during the non curfew times and then tell them they can’t go out and to lock down with their family to spread it around the household.
hopefully police will be lenient if someone is going for a drive for their mental health because they need to get out of the house. Or if they need to to and help their parents out
not to mention ramming people into these stores in an even smaller time frames for those who can go during the non curfew times and then tell them they can’t go out and to lock down with their family to spread it around the household.
hopefully police will be lenient if someone is going for a drive for their mental health because they need to get out of the house. Or if they need to to and help their parents out
This is where I can say I am 100% unsure of what is the right thing to do.
I was just reading an article from the Lilly from the Toronto Sun who has been advocating against lockdowns pretty much from the beginning.
Now he feels that the hospital system is indeed overwhelmed and we will have to fmdo something drastic.
Ontario has roughly 1700 ICU beds that are always running at 75-80 capacity at all times, now 1/4 are taken up by Covid patients, who are made up of all ages unlike the majority of deaths.
The other side, which has been a huge burden on me is the economic side. How long can we really do this?
I personally have tried to focus on the very few bright spots that have come from this as I have lost the ability to coach, and work in the industry I do, which is I have spent more time with my family than I normally get too, and I have found some enjoyable hobbies, but eventually the mental stress will become worse
Pookie
Wear a mask
- Oct 23, 2013
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No... you are getting your services all mixed up.
When you read 70-80% of the service industry, you need to be aware of what they mean.
The "Service industry" in those stats counts ALL non manufacturing to be services related. So for example, Real Estate, Financial Services, Health Care and Education are considered "services." And no, those "services" have not been obliterated.
This is a more detailed breakdown of Industry as a % of Gross Domestic Product.
| Industry | Share of GDP |
|---|---|
| Real estate and rental and leasing | 13.01% |
| Manufacturing | 10.37% |
| Mining, quarrying, and oil and gas extraction | 8.21% |
| Finance and insurance | 7.07% |
| Construction | 7.07% |
| Health care and social assistance | 6.63% |
| Public administration | 6.28% |
| Wholesale trade | 5.78% |
| Retail trade | 5.60% |
| Professional, scientific and technical services | 5.54% |
| Educational services | 5.21% |
| Transportation and warehousing | 4.60% |
| Information and cultural industries | 3.00% |
| Administrative and support, waste management and remediation services | 2.46% |
| Utilities | 2.21% |
| Accommodation and food services | 2.15% |
| Other services (except public administration) | 1.89% |
| Agriculture, forestry, fishing and hunting | 1.53% |
| Arts, entertainment and recreation | 0.77% |
| Management of companies and enterprises | 0.62% |
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-jobs-december-2020-1.5867256
"It means a lot of people who were looking before or were working before have given up and aren't even participating in the labour force. They're not even trying to find replacement jobs. A lot of those people, I suspect, have just gone home and battened down the hatches."
Canada lost 63,000 jobs in December as COVID-19 cases rise
With that said, Porter notes that 2020 goes down as the worst year for Canada’s job market since 1982.
"It means a lot of people who were looking before or were working before have given up and aren't even participating in the labour force. They're not even trying to find replacement jobs. A lot of those people, I suspect, have just gone home and battened down the hatches."
Canada lost 63,000 jobs in December as COVID-19 cases rise
With that said, Porter notes that 2020 goes down as the worst year for Canada’s job market since 1982.
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