Copps Coliseum is now officially a 'relic'

[SunDancer]

What constitutes "official interest"?

If you don't want to talk about it, you don't have to. Many see the articles about an owner in waiting and this privately funded study on renovation options to be of interest.

If a private group paid for a study into renovating and upgrading the XL Center in Hartford.....I don't think there would be many people saying "Why should we talk about this?".

I tried to look for articles about an owner in waiting in Hamilton but only found one about 2 years old.

http://www.thespec.com/sports-story...ious-says-secret-investor-on-nhl-in-hamilton/

Do you have links for any others?

 

[SunDancer]

The reason nobody put a bid for Hamilton NHL. expansion team was one the bidding was pretty much fixed since the NHL. BOG. had made up there minds before the bidding process even started two the $500 million price tag was way to much for an NHL. expansion team .

A price tag for an NHL. expansion should be more like $350 - $400 million when you consider most of the current NHL. teams are worth less than $500 million & there a few that are worth less than $350 million .

The fact is the NHL. is at best the 4th most popular sports league in north America & an expansion team from a 4th rate sports league is not worth $500 million but there are sucker ownership groups like Foley's & Quebecor that would pay that ridiculous amount .

If this is the case then why did Quebecor find it meaningful to submit a bid?

 

[GuelphStormer]

I'm with Berklon and SunDancer. Why should we continue to talk about this, knowing there is little official interest, and any potential hamilton owners don't want to pay the bill

what you "know" is likely very different from what others here might "know". and what I "know" clearly indicates to me that there is indeed "official interest". it is absolutely baseless for you to claim that no potential hamilton owners "want to pay the bill" because you just don't know that.

regardless, you are free to withdraw your participation from this discussion. nobody is forcing you to post.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I tried to look for articles about an owner in waiting in Hamilton but only found one about 2 years old.

http://www.thespec.com/sports-story...ious-says-secret-investor-on-nhl-in-hamilton/

Do you have links for any others?

If this is the case then why did Quebecor find it meaningful to submit a bid?

Agreed.

what you "know" is likely very different from what others here might "know". and what I "know" clearly indicates to me that there is indeed "official interest". it is absolutely baseless for you to claim that no potential hamilton owners "want to pay the bill" because you just don't know that.

regardless, you are free to withdraw your participation from this discussion. nobody is forcing you to post.

So then why did Quebec submit a bid under the same rules. There's nothing out there. If there was we would have heard it be now.

 

[GuelphStormer]

So then why did Quebec submit a bid under the same rules. There's nothing out there. If there was we would have heard it be now.

Quebec was anticipating an expansion franchise so it submitted an expansion application. Hamilton was not expecting an expansion franchise so it did not. It's pretty simple.

And again, just because you have not heard much about the plans and meetings with folks from hamilton does not in any way negate their existence. Im not sure why folks seem so confused by the "behind closed doors" approach. You haven't heard much about it because ... um ... talks are ongoing behind closed doors.

But let's play your game ... let's presume that the hamilton buyer did submit an expansion application. Huge headlines, right? The biggest. Front page all across the country. What do you think the consequences of that would have been now that we learn the league accepted only Vegas. Do you think the fallout from an expected denial would have been desired by anyone, including the potential buyer and the league itself? Perhaps someone suggested to the hamilton buyer that it might be better not to submit an expansion application? Hmmm.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Quebec was anticipating an expansion franchise so it submitted an expansion application. Hamilton was not expecting an expansion franchise so it did not. It's pretty simple.

And again, just because you have not heard much about the plans and meetings with folks from hamilton does not in any way negate their existence. Im not sure why folks seem so confused by the "behind closed doors" approach. You haven't heard much about it because ... um ... talks are ongoing behind closed doors.

But let's play your game ... let's presume that the hamilton buyer did submit an expansion application. Huge headlines, right? The biggest. Front page all across the country. What do you think the consequences of that would have been now that we learn the league accepted only Vegas. Do you think the fallout from an expected denial would have been desired by anyone, including the potential buyer and the league itself? Perhaps someone suggested to the hamilton buyer that it might be better not to submit an expansion application? Hmmm.

Who says they would have been rejected if they had followed the rules? That's all this is about really. Hamilton is not any different from any other city bidding for a team.

 

[MNNumbers]

Who says they would have been rejected if they had followed the rules? That's all this is about really. Hamilton is not any different from any other city bidding for a team.

Melrose and Guelph,

This is like listening to a boxing match.

Guelph: I know there are some talks going on behind the scenes, and I think, because of what I am aware of, that there are serious players involved.

Melrose: They can't be serious if they didn't bid for expansion. I don't know anything about Hamilton itself, but there isn't any thing happening there, and Copps is falling apart. Give it up. It's dead and never happening.

Guelph: You don't know what you are talking about.

Melrose: You are wearing rose colored glasses.

Guelph: You're wrong.

Melrose: Am Not!!

Guelph: Are too!!

I keep hoping to find something of substance here, and instead it sounds like 2 guys arguing past each other.

I like both of you guys. Usually you have well thought out discussions. This one really confuses me. I can't figure out what you are actually saying.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

fyi:

Copps Coliseum in name, no longer exists as a venue, it's FirstOntarioCentre, because the OHL Bulldogs STILL exist there, AND has been named that since 2014, when the AHL Bulldogs then owner Andlauer signed the naming rights contract....

 

[GuelphStormer]

Copps Coliseum in name, no longer exists as a venue, it's FirstOntarioCentre, because the OHL Bulldogs STILL exist there, AND has been named that since 2014, when the AHL Bulldogs then owner Andlauer signed the naming rights contract....

yes, thanks.

to clarify - the naming rights contract with FirstOntario Credit Union was signed by arena manager, Global Spectrum, and ratified by the venue owner, City of Hamilton. Andlauer's share was based on an advertisement revenues clause already in his Bulldogs lease.

 

[JMROWE]

If this is the case then why did Quebecor find it meaningful to submit a bid?

Simple they are DESPREATE to get a team back & are willing to pay $500 million to do it heck if it was a billion they would still find a way to pay for it while any ownership groups from Seattle & Hamilton or any other city have more sense not to over pay for a hockey team .

 

[SunDancer]

Quebec was anticipating an expansion franchise so it submitted an expansion application. Hamilton was not expecting an expansion franchise so it did not. It's pretty simple.

And again, just because you have not heard much about the plans and meetings with folks from hamilton does not in any way negate their existence. Im not sure why folks seem so confused by the "behind closed doors" approach. You haven't heard much about it because ... um ... talks are ongoing behind closed doors.

But let's play your game ... let's presume that the hamilton buyer did submit an expansion application. Huge headlines, right? The biggest. Front page all across the country. What do you think the consequences of that would have been now that we learn the league accepted only Vegas. Do you think the fallout from an expected denial would have been desired by anyone, including the potential buyer and the league itself? Perhaps someone suggested to the hamilton buyer that it might be better not to submit an expansion application? Hmmm.

On the one hand you earlier criticized the expansion process as being neither fair or transparent and that the result was predetermined but on the other hand here you state that Quebec anticipated a franchise. Seems contradictory.

The reasons used to explain why Hamilton's bid would have been fruitless can be equally applied to QC yet Quebecor still found it worthwhile to submit their bid. It gives the impression that any bidder in Hamilton is not nearly as serious. Perhaps you are right and they are taking a different approach but the bottom line is that Quebecor is on stage in front of the cameras with Bettman. In the end it may not get them anywhere but at least there's absolutely no doubt QC is being considered. We can't say the same for Hamilton.

 

[Jeffrey93]

On the one hand you earlier criticized the expansion process as being neither fair or transparent and that the result was predetermined but on the other hand here you state that Quebec anticipated a franchise. Seems contradictory.

The reasons used to explain why Hamilton's bid would have been fruitless can be equally applied to QC yet Quebecor still found it worthwhile to submit their bid. It gives the impression that any bidder in Hamilton is not nearly as serious. Perhaps you are right and they are taking a different approach but the bottom line is that Quebecor is on stage in front of the cameras with Bettman. In the end it may not get them anywhere but at least there's absolutely no doubt QC is being considered. We can't say the same for Hamilton.

Who says QC is being considered by the league at all? We assume it is....that doesn't mean it is though.

So, because Hamilton didn't bid that means there is no serious potential owner? What about that dood in Toronto that nearly had Vaughan bilked into building him an arena and promised to bid for a team? He didn't bid either after receiving the expansion package. Should he be ruled out? (I mean for interest...not for logic).

I think the prospective Hamilton Owners are realizing relocation is the avenue....and going the opposite of the Balsillie route is the way to go. A renovation study was privately funded on the rink...so now there s a concrete plan on what the potential is and what it will cost. Those private people can use that when making a bid for relocation. Balsillie did the same thing, sort of....but much more publicly. He held ticket drives and displayed his vision of a future Copps Coliseum. These private interests had a study done by Brisbin Brook Beynon Architects and present it to the City. End result is better and optics are much better as well.

I think we need to wait to see the results of this study, then people will see the potential of this building.

 

[gordie]

There's always "mystery man" when the NHL in Hamilton is mentioned by the Canadian media. Simple reason for this. Toronto Maple Leafs and Buffalo Sabres will always block whoever gets the idea that they want to infringe on their territory. This will end like it always does. All the other NHL owners blocking any attempt to infringe on their partners profits in Toronto & Buffalo.

 

[Jeffrey93]

There's always "mystery man" when the NHL in Hamilton is mentioned by the Canadian media. Simple reason for this. Toronto Maple Leafs and Buffalo Sabres will always block whoever gets the idea that they want to infringe on their territory. This will end like it always does. All the other NHL owners blocking any attempt to infringe on their partners profits in Toronto & Buffalo.

Been over this sooooo many times. Doesn't have much to do with the building either.

 

[gordie]

Been over this sooooo many times. Doesn't have much to do with the building either.

Sure it does. Any building whether new or refurbished and is located in the city limits of Hamilton or in a radius of 100 miles of the Toronto Maple Leafs or Buffalo Sabres is assured of never being the home of a third NHL team in that region.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Sure it does. Any building whether new or refurbished and is located in the city limits of Hamilton or in a radius of 100 miles of the Toronto Maple Leafs or Buffalo Sabres is assured of never being the home of a third NHL team in that region.

100 miles can be questioned.

Money changes everything.

Current MLSE Ownership being interested in owning a Hamilton franchises changes everything again.

League desperation.

Never say never.

If it was so iron clad that a team could NEVER be put in Hamilton without the blessing of Toronto and Buffalo.....Balsillie wouldn't have presented much of an issue for the NHL.

But again....has nothing to do with the suitability/potential of the building.

 

[Killion]

Sure it does. Any building whether new or refurbished and is located in the city limits of Hamilton or in a radius of 100 miles of the Toronto Maple Leafs or Buffalo Sabres is assured of never being the home of a third NHL team in that region.

Believe the NHL Constitution specifies "50 miles as the crow flies" there gordie.... and written at the dawning of the 20th Century using language that appears to have been borrowed from 19th Century Native North American Treaties.... "as the crow flies"..... hardly acceptable to 20th Century let alone now 21st Century legal mores' with respect to franchise agreements & free trade, restrictive trade practices.... In 1917 when it was drafted, the City Limits of Toronto didnt extend much past Bloor & Yonge to the north, Parkdale to the west. Hamilton well outside those boundaries and certainly not a problem contemporaneously when the League moved the Bulldogs from Quebec to the Hammer in 1920.... But ok.... lets look at the growth of Metropolitan Toronto through the 20th & early 21st Centuries including Amalgamation & the now much larger footprint extending to the border of Mississauga, and, if you "give" MLSE that, then Hamilton does sit by all of 2 miles within that 50 mile "as the crow flies" radius. 2 miles. Two.... Buffalo short by a couple of miles.... And thats worth tens upon tens of millions in indemnification payments, that the Sabres & Leafs can block, lay claim to a market to wit neither has ever marketed or catered to in nearly 100yrs with the exception of the already precedent setting Tigers?... I dont think so and Id absolutely love to see this go before the Bench. Lawsuit. That thought sending shivers up & down the spines of Jacobs, Bettman, the NHL & MLSE if push ever did come to shove. Be absolutely nailed to a cross by the judiciary, Department of Justice in the US, Canadian Competition Bureau & one Hell of a mess which could actually result in the league being completely dismantled. Monopolization, restrictive trade practices, that clause in the NHL Constitution & their actions over the years in fact breaching elements of the US Rico Act used to prosecute organized crime.

 

[gordie]

Believe the NHL Constitution specifies "50 miles as the crow flies" there gordie.... and written at the dawning of the 20th Century using language that appears to have been borrowed from 19th Century Native North American Treaties.... "as the crow flies"..... hardly acceptable to 20th Century let alone now 21st Century legal mores' with respect to franchise agreements & free trade, restrictive trade practices.... In 1917 when it was drafted, the City Limits of Toronto didnt extend much past Bloor & Yonge to the north, Parkdale to the west. Hamilton well outside those boundaries and certainly not a problem contemporaneously when the League moved the Bulldogs from Quebec to the Hammer in 1920.... But ok.... lets look at the growth of Metropolitan Toronto through the 20th & early 21st Centuries including Amalgamation & the now much larger footprint extending to the border of Mississauga, and, if you "give" MLSE that, then Hamilton does sit by all of 2 miles within that 50 mile "as the crow flies" radius. 2 miles. Two.... Buffalo short by a couple of miles.... And thats worth tens upon tens of millions in indemnification payments, that the Sabres & Leafs can block, lay claim to a market to wit neither has ever marketed or catered to in nearly 100yrs with the exception of the already precedent setting Tigers?... I dont think so and Id absolutely love to see this go before the Bench. Lawsuit. That thought sending shivers up & down the spines of Jacobs, Bettman, the NHL & MLSE if push ever did come to shove. Be absolutely nailed to a cross by the judiciary, Department of Justice in the US, Canadian Competition Bureau & one Hell of a mess which could actually result in the league being completely dismantled. Monopolization, restrictive trade practices, that clause in the NHL Constitution & their actions over the years in fact breaching elements of the US Rico Act used to prosecute organized crime.

That's not how business or law works on either side of the border. NHL does not have to approve anyone into their 31 member club just because they want in. Millions of tax dollars fighting a private business for proposed private venture?? You think anyone is going to allow that?? Having an NHL team is not a "right" as some in Canada believe. It is a business and Toronto & Buffalo decided long ago a Hamilton NHL team isn't best for their business. They can always get their 29 other partners to agree.

 

[Killion]

That's not how business or law works on either side of the border. NHL does not have to approve anyone into their 31 member club just because they want in. Millions of tax dollars fighting a private business for proposed private venture?? You think anyone is going to allow that?? Having an NHL team is not a "right" as some in Canada believe. It is a business and Toronto & Buffalo decided long ago a Hamilton NHL team isn't best for their business. They can always get their 29 other partners to agree.

Ya, and thats the grey area in which they operate. Judge Baum in the Moyes Coyotes Bankruptcy case was unwilling to make that determination, to override the NHL's (or any leagues) right in determining location & of course who gets in as an owner and who doesnt however gordie, your quite mistaken in suggesting that "thats not how business or law works". For another thing, millions of tax dollars were or are invested in providing infrastructure for buildings, arenas & stadia, so yeah, they are stakeholders as they are being asked to provide public funding for private interests.... You should also understand that the NHL under Bettman mid-90's knowing the Constitutional Clause regarding that 50 mile exclusive left them open to legal jeopardy and so they created a By-Law that supposedly circumvents it, giving them cover should accusations of anti-trust be leveled against them however as it hasnt been challenged formally, we just dont know how the courts would deal with them. Constitutional rights generally trump any By-Law and its that argument that was posited by MLSE. ... And no, having an NHL team is certainly not a right however if a market applying for Expansion or in acquiring a team through Relocation contains all of the prerequisites in spades as is the case with Hamilton & Southern Ontario, and the applicant goes through the process honestly (Balsillie did not go about it the right way so lets get that out of the way however he did bring transparency to a flawed system) and is denied entry for purely spurious reasons as Hamilton has been then questions about the process will be asked, comparisons to a 3 team New York, 2 team Southern California & Florida along with elsewhere will be made. Hard questions asked.... This has been going on for ages, decades.... Checkbook Expansion. Self Dealing... Even going back to the 1st major Expansion.. Despite the narrative the NHL promoted leading up to the 67/68 Expansion that it was all about "broadcast & growing the game" it was in fact only done as various clubs & cities had been knocking on the door throughout the 50's, and finding it closed were threatening the NHL with Anti-Trust suits. Most notably Los Angeles & Cleveland. It was a serious threat, including the threat of the creation of a competitive league, something they couldnt stop despite their efforts, Expansion, creation of the WHA, taking to the ice in 72.

 

[gordie]

It is called a "Gentlemen's Agreement". Hamilton's NHL ambitions has and will continue to experience something like African-American and Black Latino baseball players experienced for decades. Something not written down but all the members agree to keep them out. Very hard to prove in court unless a member or two breaks ranks like Walter O'Malley and Branch Rickey did in the late 1940's and challenges it.

 

[Killion]

It is called a "Gentlemen's Agreement". Hamilton's NHL ambitions has and will continue to experience something like African-American and Black Latino baseball players experienced for decades. Something not written down but all the members agree to keep them out. Very hard to prove in court unless a member or two breaks ranks like Walter O'Malley and Branch Rickey did in the late 1940's and challenges it.

Pretty much. Ron Joyce told early on in the Expansion process "just dont bother" and why Balsillie went at it in the manner in which he did, essentially told "not happening" when he played nice early on... and you tell a guy like that "not happening" after he did play nice then ya, he's gonna & did get nasty about it. Shame really. Had he just played the game, bought the Penguins cleanly & made a real go of it, got the new arena going in Pittsburgh etc, then with a seat at the table lobbied to be first in-line for a Hamilton Expansion team after showing his stuff in Pennsylvania... made nice with Jacobs, Bettman, Toronto & Buffalo well, who knows?... All rather moot now of course. RIM a shadow of its former self, JB while still wealthy not in a position to be dropping $500M on a franchise, paying indemnification to the Leafs & Sabres, spending on a total reno of the building in Hamilton & with the plans & money to build a new facility in lets say 5-10yrs which one would imagine would be a league requirement.

 

[JMROWE]

The NHL. Gary Bettman , Leafs , Sabers & Jeremy Jacobs can't keep denying Southern Ontario (Hamilton) a 2nd NHL. team because the money & demand is there especially in the Hamilton area where there is an economic boom right now & shows no signs of slowing down anytime soon because a the idea of 2nd NHL. team in southern Ontario most likely Hamilton is not going away anytime soon ether .

Hamilton is an untapped NHL. gold mine & I believe a deal can be made with all parties that will allow NHL. team to play in Hamilton & then the only real stumbling block is shutting up the fear mongering of Jeremy Jacobs .

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

The NHL. Gary Bettman , Leafs , Sabres & Jeremy Jacobs can't keep denying Southern Ontario (Hamilton) a 2nd NHL. team because the money & demand is there especially in the Hamilton area where there is an economic boom right now & shows no signs of slowing down anytime soon because a the idea of 2nd NHL. team in southern Ontario most likely Hamilton is not going away anytime soon ether .

Hamilton is an untapped NHL. gold mine & I believe a deal can be made with all parties that will allow NHL. team to play in Hamilton & then the only real stumbling block is shutting up the fear mongering of Jeremy Jacobs .

NEVER HAPPENING

 

[jason2020]

The NHL. Gary Bettman , Leafs , Sabres & Jeremy Jacobs can't keep denying Southern Ontario (Hamilton) a 2nd NHL. team because the money & demand is there especially in the Hamilton area where there is an economic boom right now & shows no signs of slowing down anytime soon because a the idea of 2nd NHL. team in southern Ontario most likely Hamilton is not going away anytime soon ether .

Hamilton is an untapped NHL. gold mine & I believe a deal can be made with all parties that will allow NHL. team to play in Hamilton & then the only real stumbling block is shutting up the fear mongering of Jeremy Jacobs .

I don't think the Leafs/Buffalo or the league is the real issue its will a group be willing to fund the arena 90-100% or will they depend big time on public money if its they say we need 60% public money I would say there is very little chance this happening if its 90-100% private then its just a matter of time before they get a team.

 

[JMROWE]

Ok listen carefully I am about to debunk all the so called territory claims that the Leafs & Sabers have been making for years because if you look at a map the Rangers , Devils , Islanders & Flyers are all within a 100 miles of each other & yet there where no territory claims made when they awarded franchises to them .