Copps Coliseum is now officially a 'relic'

[SunDancer]

I understand that it's essentially meaningless when I come in here and contradict this by saying I have knowledge that there have been discussions between the league and a prospective ownership group. I mean, who am I to say that, especially when I do not reveal names. That said, there have been several Hamilton Spectator newspaper reports over the past few years that have also stated there is an owner in waiting but that they wish to remain private for the time being.

I mean, imagine the onslaught of media attention the individuals involved would face were their dealings with the league to be made public. Nope. Let's just call this the polar opposite strategy of Balsillie's ... one done behind closed doors.

Well, "several" reports might be a stretch. A quick google search just dug up this one:

http://www.thespec.com/sports-story...ious-says-secret-investor-on-nhl-in-hamilton/

Considering it's almost 2 years old and they didn't even submit an expansion bid when it was "time to get serious," it doesn't sound very credible.

On the other hand it will be interesting to see what comes of this:

http://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/7164423-dreschel-arena-reno-report-delayed-until-april/

The report by international venue experts Brisbin Brook Beynon Architects (BBB) includes both a technical analysis of every physical aspect of the centre and spells out two costly makeover options.

One involves turning the lower bowl into a state-of-the-art 8,000-or-so seat facility. The other is a full renovation, elevating the 17,000-seat building to current NHL and other pro league standards.

Though the report remains confidential, the first option is believed to be in the $70-million range while the second clocks in at around $250 million.

Nice to see Ron Joyce is still involved.

 

[Hammer9001]

Since then. Where is the buyer?

Since then, any prospective buyer has given up, because it's very clear that the NHL doesn't want a team in Hamilton. Four attempts were made, all via different avenues and many of them when the facility was brand new and to all of them the NHL said no.

Consider that the NHL fought tooth and nail, for the honor of continuing to lose money in Phoenix (which by all accounts, still remains a major money loser) in order to prevent a team from moving to Hamilton, where by it's own admission, stated would be an incredibly profitable market speaks volumes.

What it comes down to is Toronto and Buffalo don't want a team there, and most of the "have" owners only means of expanding their revenue is expanding US television revenue, which is why they continue to want teams in the south to try to grow the game.

 

[Killion]

Since then, any prospective buyer has given up, because it's very clear that the NHL doesn't want a team in Hamilton. Four attempts were made, all via different avenues and many of them when the facility was brand new and to all of them the NHL said no.

Consider that the NHL fought tooth and nail, for the honor of continuing to lose money in Phoenix (which by all accounts, still remains a major money loser) in order to prevent a team from moving to Hamilton, where by it's own admission, stated would be an incredibly profitable market speaks volumes.

What it comes down to is Toronto and Buffalo don't want a team there, and most of the "have" owners only means of expanding their revenue is expanding US television revenue, which is why they continue to want teams in the south to try to grow the game.

Well, the landscapes changed somewhat since Balsillies efforts. Youve just got to figure that in approving the Bell/Rogers purchase of MLSE from the Teachers Pension Fund that the NHL required, made the approval conditional that they sign-off on any opposition to a 2nd or even 3rd team (within reason) being planted in Hamilton or any other area bordering the GTA. That it would be a League decision, that the League would decide when, where & who, and how much indemnification (if any) they'd be entitled to. Bettman, a Lawyer of course, would have been a fool to have not demanded that as despite his bravado in claiming publicly that MLSE had no veto... however.... based on a letter that surfaced during the Moyes BK in Arizona between Council for MLSE & the NHL, the Leafs were not going to stand for it. Believed they did have a veto based on the NHL Constitution... a clause that was never amended over the years & decades leaving the NHL exposed legally with respect to restrictive trade practices & anti-trust, monopolization...

So in the mid 90's, Bettman aware of this problem at an NHL BOG Meeting a By-Law was created which removed the power of a veto vote and replaced it with a simple majority vote approval. As the letter from MLSE Council stated, the Leafs were not present at that meeting, didnt vote on the By-Law, wouldnt have voted for it, basically telling the NHL dont even think about trying it on. The Constitution trumping your silly little By-Law... The other obstacle however remains, and that would be Jeremy Jacobs, Chairman of the BOG's, who's hometown is Buffalo & who over the years has adamantly opposed any talk of a team in Hamilton. Not having it. Like so many other things, Jacobs is dead wrong about this as well, that a team in the Hammer would spell doom for the Sabres but, he's obtuse, powerful, mind long ago made up about it so... The good news on that front however is that Buffalo finally has excellent ownership, enlightened, open minded in Terry Pegula so theres hope yet. Jacobs wont live forever, entirely possible Pegula demands JJ just drop it, has it ass backwards, team in Hamilton a huge boon to his club with a closer rival rather than precipitating the demise of the Sabres as Jacobs believes.

 

[Cotton]

I don't see what any of that has to do with what I said. I have been there, it's not even close to a world class facility. Not really sure what you think world class events means either.

Land and construction is not still cheap in Hamilton. Cheaper than downtown Toronto? Yes, but so is every other city in Canada with the exception of Vancouver. The $300 mil figure is ridiculously off even so. Edmonton's new arena cost almost C$500mil. Detroit's new arena cost over USA$700 mil. Why in the world would Hamilton's arena cost significantly less to build and design than Edmonton's, when land is just as expensive if not more so in Hamilton? Hamilton isn't in an economic boon, it's increasingly shifting towards a city that is a satellite of Toronto. Population growth is marginal, while many Hamiltonians are shifting from working in Hamilton to working outside the city. KW-Cambridge contributes more to Canadian GDP than Hamilton does and Hamilton is 200k+ more people. What in Hamilton signals an economic boom? The only reason housing is expensive is because Hamilton is 30 minutes from downtown Toronto. It's no different in that regard from other outer GTA towns.

In what futuristic space mobile are you getting from Hamilton to downtown Toronto in 30 minutes?

 

[Bjorn Le]

In what futuristic space mobile are you getting from Hamilton to downtown Toronto in 30 minutes?

Used a rather "liberal" figure there. Although fom the Skyway, I've got to the Gardiner in 20-25 minutes before. Easier to commute into Old Toronto from Hamilton than it is from Barrie, Oshawa or Milton/Georgetown in my mind. Not that the QEW isn't a mess most days. So maybe not 30 minutes, but 45-60 minutes is still pretty good.

 

[varano]

Used a rather "liberal" figure there. Although fom the Skyway, I've got to the Gardiner in 20-25 minutes before. Easier to commute into Old Toronto from Hamilton than it is from Barrie, Oshawa or Milton/Georgetown in my mind. Not that the QEW isn't a mess most days. So maybe not 30 minutes, but 45-60 minutes is still pretty good.

On a Game night on a weekday you might be looking at more than 60 mins.

 

[JMROWE]

The NHL. BOG. & Gary Bettman have to realize that the game of hockey is about as big as it's going to get in the USA. especially is the southern states where there is absolutely no more cities where they can grow the game such as Houston Tx. , Kansas City Mi. & Portland Or. have zero interest in the NHL. the only cities left that 100% want an NHL. team are Quebec City Qc. , Hamilton On. , Seattle Wa. & Hartford Ct. that is it no one else especially in the USA. wants one it is at best a 4th rated sports league down there & that is why a lot of NHL. teams struggle just to break even & need to start focusing profitable markets instead of trying to grow the game in markets that don't want a NHL. team but get one forced down there throats any way .

So in my opinion this is what NHL. should do .

Expansion - Quebec City
Coyotes - Seattle
Hurricanes\ Panthers - Hamilton
Hurricanes \ Panthers - Hartford

 

[Jeffrey93]

They were false pretenses in that he had said his goal was to keep the team in Pittsburgh. His plans for Copps had images of Crosby and Fluery in them, yet he was supposed to be committed to Pittsburgh.

News to me....and I followed these purchase attempts awfully closely.

I'd like to see these images, if you could provide a link that'd be great.

The reason I find this hard to believe is that the NHL came down on Balsillie pretty hard for holding a ticket drive using the Predators logo. I can't imagine he'd be in negotiations to purchase the Penguins, which were in negotiations to build an arena in Pittsburgh....and also use images of Copps Coliseum with Crosby and Fleury in them. And also, not get any flak from the league, Penguins, Crosby or Fleury for using these images without their consent.

Another odd thing, his plans for Copps Coliseum never came out until the Phoenix bankruptcy/purchase attempt happened.

Anyway.....I believe (as do those close to him) Balsillie's bid for the Penguins was to keep them in Pittsburgh if a new arena could get built. That couldn't happen with this restraining 7 year clause. If it did get built....this obviously wasn't Balsillie's end game, but he'd be in the club now and have an upcoming franchise with a brand new arena. Getting a franchise (by relocation or expansion) would be MUCH easier from that position. If that could never happen, even from that position....he still was an NHL Owner. Which was still a win for him.

 

[MNNumbers]

News to me....and I followed these purchase attempts awfully closely.

I'd like to see these images, if you could provide a link that'd be great.

The reason I find this hard to believe is that the NHL came down on Balsillie pretty hard for holding a ticket drive using the Predators logo. I can't imagine he'd be in negotiations to purchase the Penguins, which were in negotiations to build an arena in Pittsburgh....and also use images of Copps Coliseum with Crosby and Fleury in them. And also, not get any flak from the league, Penguins, Crosby or Fleury for using these images without their consent.

Another odd thing, his plans for Copps Coliseum never came out until the Phoenix bankruptcy/purchase attempt happened.

Anyway.....I believe (as do those close to him) Balsillie's bid for the Penguins was to keep them in Pittsburgh if a new arena could get built. That couldn't happen with this restraining 7 year clause. If it did get built....this obviously wasn't Balsillie's end game, but he'd be in the club now and have an upcoming franchise with a brand new arena. Getting a franchise (by relocation or expansion) would be MUCH easier from that position. If that could never happen, even from that position....he still was an NHL Owner. Which was still a win for him.

Let me get you straight here, Jeffrey, because I am a little slow on the timeline. You are saying that Balsillie's idea was:

1- Acquire Penguins and stay in Pittsburgh, temporarily at least, while attempting to get a new arena.
2- No new arena? Then relo to Hamilton.
3- If new arena is built, then he is 'in the club.'
4- Now, in the club, use his position to trade ownership stake in one club for another, in an effort to get a team in Hamilton (this trading would be somewhat like Leipold selling Nashville and acquiring Minnesota).

Is that what you are saying? Because that makes sense.

Which makes me sure it is not what was happening, because nothing in NHL ownership ever makes sense.

 

[Jeffrey93]

It's hard to take those reports seriously since we've already seen the Thrashers relocated and we didn't hear a peep from this person(s). Las Vegas and Quebec put in a bid for an expansion team - again, we didn't hear from him/her/them. So if this person/group is real - what exactly are they waiting for?

There wasn't much secrecy about Winnipeg's intentions. They rolled the dice on a small arena, hedging their bets that if it never panned out they didn't have a larger venue than they needed. A new venue was needed regardless.

Quebec's new arena being built never had any secrecy about the overall intention either. Again, the area needed a new venue regardless. They did however build the Videotron Centre with all the bells and whistles gambling on getting an NHL team back. Everyone knew this was the plan, but again....if it didn't happen....they needed the venue anyway.

Las Vegas.....new arena built....once again, kind of needed a new venue anyway. There have been rumblings of the NHL or NBA going to Vegas for years. The new arena intensified that. Then suddenly an expansion process starts.

Hamilton on the other hand.....already has the venue. It would need renovations, but until now it was always figured those would occur once a franchise was secured. However, the City has let the venue lapse enough that major improvements are needed regardless. So....they are the one market that you wouldn't hear a peep out of (especially after the Balsillie events). Did you read that the $240,000 study on how to renovate Copps Coliseum was privately funded? Think maybe there is a reason for that? There will be solid plans on what the venue can become, what it will cost and how long it will take. That's something the NHL would probably be interested in. Since Gary just looks at the 'Date Built' on venues and opines on them based on that.

 

[Jonas1235]

so why didn't hartford or quebec move to hamilton in the 90's?

 

[Gnashville]

News to me....and I followed these purchase attempts awfully closely.

I'd like to see these images, if you could provide a link that'd be great.

The reason I find this hard to believe is that the NHL came down on Balsillie pretty hard for holding a ticket drive using the Predators logo. I can't imagine he'd be in negotiations to purchase the Penguins, which were in negotiations to build an arena in Pittsburgh....and also use images of Copps Coliseum with Crosby and Fleury in them. And also, not get any flak from the league, Penguins, Crosby or Fleury for using these images without their consent.

Another odd thing, his plans for Copps Coliseum never came out until the Phoenix bankruptcy/purchase attempt happened.

Anyway.....I believe (as do those close to him) Balsillie's bid for the Penguins was to keep them in Pittsburgh if a new arena could get built. That couldn't happen with this restraining 7 year clause. If it did get built....this obviously wasn't Balsillie's end game, but he'd be in the club now and have an upcoming franchise with a brand new arena. Getting a franchise (by relocation or expansion) would be MUCH easier from that position. If that could never happen, even from that position....he still was an NHL Owner. Which was still a win for him.

In the images released in the Phoenix purchase on the Makeitseven website (which no longer exists) they posted the planned upgrade of Copps the players photo banners on the outside was clearly Crosby and Fluery. Those drawings and plans go back to his Penguins purchase attempt.
The player on the left is clearly Crosby (the one on the makeitseven website was more hi resolution) not some generic player and the one of Fluery was even more obvious it is from an inside shot but I cannot seem to find it.

I also found it funny that almost every hockey fan in Hamilton is a girl.

And as I have stated he was told in private about the 7 year clause and that it would be waived if necessary and he went public with it. IT would not have been a big deal if not for his big mouth.

 

[JMROWE]

so why didn't hartford or quebec move to hamilton in the 90's?

The reasons where the Canadian dollar was extremely weak at the time & the owners of those teams did not want deal with so territory issues with Toronto & Buffalo which could have been very expensive given the weakness of the Canadian dollar at the time .

 

[SunDancer]

Hamilton on the other hand.....already has the venue. It would need renovations, but until now it was always figured those would occur once a franchise was secured. However, the City has let the venue lapse enough that major improvements are needed regardless. So....they are the one market that you wouldn't hear a peep out of (especially after the Balsillie events). Did you read that the $240,000 study on how to renovate Copps Coliseum was privately funded? Think maybe there is a reason for that? There will be solid plans on what the venue can become, what it will cost and how long it will take. That's something the NHL would probably be interested in. Since Gary just looks at the 'Date Built' on venues and opines on them based on that.

That doesn't explain why nobody in Hamilton submitted an expansion bid in 2015. The NHL rarely has openings for new franchises, so if anybody credible is really considering putting a team in Hamilton, they missed a golden opportunity to get their foot in the door.

 

[GuelphStormer]

That doesn't explain why nobody in Hamilton submitted an expansion bid in 2015. The NHL rarely has openings for new franchises, so if anybody credible is really considering putting a team in Hamilton, they missed a golden opportunity to get their foot in the door.

again ... EXPANSION! even in the best of circumstances, the league would not consider EXPANDING to Hamilton. those reasons have been laid out here ad nauseam.

the strategy is, and has been now for several years, to RELOCATE a struggling (presumably) eastern franchise. and yes, that may very well be what is in store for QC, leaving one less vulnerable relocation candidate.

but let's get past this nonsense idea that just because there was no expansion bid submitted, that necessarily means there is no interest, nor ownership group in place in hamilton .... because there is interest and capacity. hamilton not only has a "foot in the door", it has the ear of some members of the BoG.

moreover, you seem to presume that the expansion process was somehow fair and transparent. it was the furthest thing from that. it was predestined. again, we've had many discussions here to that and it's beyond clear that given an unreasonably short window to package and submit an application, as well as STATED preferences that Vegas was a front runner BECAUSE it had a new arena, it should hardly be surprising that no official bid came from hamilton or Seattle.

 

[Jeffrey93]

The player on the left is clearly Crosby (the one on the makeitseven website was more hi resolution) not some generic player and the one of Fluery was even more obvious it is from an inside shot but I cannot seem to find it.

The player on the left is Paul Kariya in an old school Ducks jersey, or....pretty much any player with a C on his shirt.

May 29, 2009 was when these images were released.

Balsillie withdrew his offer to purchase the Penguins on December 15, 2006.

So.....not too sure how or why Crosby and Fleury would be featured on images of a renovated Copps Coliseum 3 and a half years after he withdrew his offer to buy the Pens. Can you think of a reason? I REALLY can't think of how this image would have impacted the purchase of the Penguins or shown that he actually wanted to relocate them.....3 years after he didn't buy them.

And as I have stated he was told in private about the 7 year clause and that it would be waived if necessary and he went public with it. IT would not have been a big deal if not for his big mouth.

He was told right before finalizing the deal of the 7 year clause, was told even if the arena vote didn't pan out and 'Plan B' failed....it would be enforced. So he walked away from the deal.


ANYWAY....he seemed to see quite a bit of potential in Copps....I'm sure this report when it is made public will find a lot as well. Not exactly a relic. Just neglected.

 

[JMROWE]

That doesn't explain why nobody in Hamilton submitted an expansion bid in 2015. The NHL rarely has openings for new franchises, so if anybody credible is really considering putting a team in Hamilton, they missed a golden opportunity to get their foot in the door.

The reason nobody put a bid for Hamilton NHL. expansion team was one the bidding was pretty much fixed since the NHL. BOG. had made up there minds before the bidding process even started two the $500 million price tag was way to much for an NHL. expansion team .

A price tag for an NHL. expansion should be more like $350 - $400 million when you consider most of the current NHL. teams are worth less than $500 million & there a few that are worth less than $350 million .

The fact is the NHL. is at best the 4th most popular sports league in north America & an expansion team from a 4th rate sports league is not worth $500 million but there are sucker ownership groups like Foley's & Quebecor that would pay that ridiculous amount .

 

[Melrose Munch]

There wasn't much secrecy about Winnipeg's intentions. They rolled the dice on a small arena, hedging their bets that if it never panned out they didn't have a larger venue than they needed. A new venue was needed regardless.

Quebec's new arena being built never had any secrecy about the overall intention either. Again, the area needed a new venue regardless. They did however build the Videotron Centre with all the bells and whistles gambling on getting an NHL team back. Everyone knew this was the plan, but again....if it didn't happen....they needed the venue anyway.

Las Vegas.....new arena built....once again, kind of needed a new venue anyway. There have been rumblings of the NHL or NBA going to Vegas for years. The new arena intensified that. Then suddenly an expansion process starts.

Hamilton on the other hand.....already has the venue. It would need renovations, but until now it was always figured those would occur once a franchise was secured. However, the City has let the venue lapse enough that major improvements are needed regardless. So....they are the one market that you wouldn't hear a peep out of (especially after the Balsillie events). Did you read that the $240,000 study on how to renovate Copps Coliseum was privately funded? Think maybe there is a reason for that? There will be solid plans on what the venue can become, what it will cost and how long it will take. That's something the NHL would probably be interested in. Since Gary just looks at the 'Date Built' on venues and opines on them based on that.

That doesn't explain why nobody in Hamilton submitted an expansion bid in 2015. The NHL rarely has openings for new franchises, so if anybody credible is really considering putting a team in Hamilton, they missed a golden opportunity to get their foot in the door.

again ... EXPANSION! even in the best of circumstances, the league would not consider EXPANDING to Hamilton. those reasons have been laid out here ad nauseam.

the strategy is, and has been now for several years, to RELOCATE a struggling (presumably) eastern franchise. and yes, that may very well be what is in store for QC, leaving one less vulnerable relocation candidate.

but let's get past this nonsense idea that just because there was no expansion bid submitted, that necessarily means there is no interest, nor ownership group in place in hamilton .... because there is interest and capacity. hamilton not only has a "foot in the door", it has the ear of some members of the BoG.

moreover, you seem to presume that the expansion process was somehow fair and transparent. it was the furthest thing from that. it was predestined. again, we've had many discussions here to that and it's beyond clear that given an unreasonably short window to package and submit an application, as well as STATED preferences that Vegas was a front runner BECAUSE it had a new arena, it should hardly be surprising that no official bid came from hamilton or Seattle.

The reason nobody put a bid for Hamilton NHL. expansion team was one the bidding was pretty much fixed since the NHL. BOG. had made up there minds before the bidding process even started two the $500 million price tag was way to much for an NHL. expansion team .

A price tag for an NHL. expansion should be more like $350 - $400 million when you consider most of the current NHL. teams are worth less than $500 million & there a few that are worth less than $350 million .

The fact is the NHL. is at best the 4th most popular sports league in north America & an expansion team from a 4th rate sports league is not worth $500 million but there are sucker ownership groups like Foley's & Quebecor that would pay that ridiculous amount .

I'm with Berklon and SunDancer. Why should we continue to talk about this, knowing there is little official interest, and any potential hamilton owners don't want to pay the bill

 

[Jeffrey93]

I'm with Berklon and SunDancer. Why should we continue to talk about this, knowing there is little official interest, and any potential hamilton owners don't want to pay the bill

What constitutes "official interest"?

If you don't want to talk about it, you don't have to. Many see the articles about an owner in waiting and this privately funded study on renovation options to be of interest.

If a private group paid for a study into renovating and upgrading the XL Center in Hartford.....I don't think there would be many people saying "Why should we talk about this?".

 

[Melrose Munch]

What constitutes "official interest"?

If you don't want to talk about it, you don't have to. Many see the articles about an owner in waiting and this privately funded study on renovation options to be of interest.

If a private group paid for a study into renovating and upgrading the XL Center in Hartford.....I don't think there would be many people saying "Why should we talk about this?".

Because that would be the first time in years right? With this, this the rumors fly abound.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Because that would be the first time in years right? With this, this the rumors fly abound.

So.....because there are so many rumours surrounding Hamilton and the NHL....it's less worthy of talking about?

I don't get it.

 

[Melrose Munch]

So.....because there are so many rumours surrounding Hamilton and the NHL....it's less worthy of talking about?

I don't get it.

The point is people are saying there is interest, and it never pans out. We're supposed to believe some people have been kicking the tires. Not a peep since 2011. And now the arena is basically not good enough for the memorial cup. I'd say it's time to move on.

 

[Jeffrey93]

The point is people are saying there is interest, and it never pans out. We're supposed to believe some people have been kicking the tires. Not a peep since 2011. And now the arena is basically not good enough for the memorial cup. I'd say it's time to move on.

Yeah, not good enough for the Memorial Cup due to dehumidification and an HD scoreboard. Better write it off and call in the explosive team.

Not a peep in 5 years....do you want someone going to the media and stating their intentions to relocate an NHL franchise? I think we all know that doesn't go over so well.

It never pans out.....if it had panned out we wouldn't be talking about this, would we?

Ignore the thread man....not a big deal.

 

[Evil Doctor]

In what futuristic space mobile are you getting from Hamilton to downtown Toronto in 30 minutes?

Oh it's doable, I've done it. Downtown Hamilton to Downtown Toronto. Of course you have to do it between 12:00 am and 6:00 am, preferably on a weekend and you have to ignore the posted speed suggestion....

 

[SunDancer]

again ... EXPANSION! even in the best of circumstances, the league would not consider EXPANDING to Hamilton. those reasons have been laid out here ad nauseam.

the strategy is, and has been now for several years, to RELOCATE a struggling (presumably) eastern franchise. and yes, that may very well be what is in store for QC, leaving one less vulnerable relocation candidate.

but let's get past this nonsense idea that just because there was no expansion bid submitted, that necessarily means there is no interest, nor ownership group in place in hamilton .... because there is interest and capacity. hamilton not only has a "foot in the door", it has the ear of some members of the BoG.

moreover, you seem to presume that the expansion process was somehow fair and transparent. it was the furthest thing from that. it was predestined. again, we've had many discussions here to that and it's beyond clear that given an unreasonably short window to package and submit an application, as well as STATED preferences that Vegas was a front runner BECAUSE it had a new arena, it should hardly be surprising that no official bid came from hamilton or Seattle.

The obstacles to putting a team in Hamilton are comparable to the ones facing Quebec City but unlike Hamilton there has been real progress in QC. The likelihood of either city actually getting a team is unknown but Quebecor has undoubtedly advanced their cause far more than anything going on in Hamilton and at the moment they are much much closer to their goal. Two cities that are not on the NHL's "most preferred" list but one is clearly the next in line.

If there is anything more than a passing interest in a Hamilton than that group is not doing a very good job at pursuing it. Yes, the important work is done behind the scenes but any long term concerted lobbying effort does not go under the radar forever. Most people believed the NHL would never return to Winnipeg again yet True North's efforts were public long before they got the Thrashers. Seattle may not be close to getting a team yet we know all about the groups vying for a team there. At the moment the buzz surrounding Hamilton is similar to what it is Kansas City or Virginia Beach.