Value of: Copp and Lehkonen on the NYR 3rd line

[Big Empty]

Habs fans, if you want to keep Lekhonen, please, go ahead! Then he will walk in UFA and leave the habs worse off, or the habs will hand him a massive contract that he is not remotely worth. Demanding a 1st for a bottom 6 forward like Lekhonen isn't getting you anywhere.

You're not following the team if you think Lehky is going to leave as a free agent in a year.

 

[smoneil]

Please explain how a team with a solid top 4 D, star goalie and a good top 6 mixed with some grit and skill in the bottom 6 isn’t a contender? The OP is right, if New York could roll out a heavy min eating matchup 3rd line they are a nightmare matchup for anyone.

No team* in 30+ years has won the Stanley Cup after missing the playoffs two or more years prior. It's likely even more striking than that, but I stopped looking once I hit the 1980s. Collective team playoff experience (ie: the team as a group, not individual players having playoff experience 4 or 5+ years ago on a dozen different teams) is pretty much the only constant in a Stanley Cup winning recipe. The Rangers don't have it.

* The lone "exception" is the Canes in 2006 who missed two seasons in a row before winning the Cup, though that season was a massive outlier due to the new rules and the missed season from the lockout. They also had gone to the Stanley Cup final the season before their two missed playoff seasons, and had 8 players from that group still on the roster.

 

[Habs10025]

Habs fans, if you want to keep Lekhonen, please, go ahead! Then he will walk in UFA and leave the habs worse off, or the habs will hand him a massive contract that he is not remotely worth. Demanding a 1st for a bottom 6 forward like Lekhonen isn't getting you anywhere.

Gorton / Hughes will only trade Lehkonen if they receive an offer that improves the Montreal Canadiens .
Lehkonen a restricted free agent can easily be resigned by Montreal .
If teams like the Rangers don't like what the cost is to acquire Lehkonen then can trade with another team for another player .

Montreal Canadiens don't need to trade Lehkonen and likely won't unless some team offers something Gorton /Hughes want more than Lehkonen.

 

[Mersss]

See that the Rangers and Tampa were in completely different situations. Tampa failed year after year in the playoffs. They needed to win that season or last season.

The Rangers are just getting into contention. There is no demand for a cup. You're not dealing with a desperate team. You're dealing with a team just beginning their window of contention.

So a #1 pick for a defensive 3rd liner isn't where the team is. Are there teams that will drop a #1 for him? Probably, but not the Rangers.

Kravtsov and a 2nd is a good deal for both. 22 year old winger, drafted by their current GM. Former lottery pick. Needs a change of scenery. Size, good speed, good shot. Every Rangers fan had him penciled in for the 3rd line this summer, some even the 2nd line.

KHL numbers are good considering he's 5th on the team in ice time, and not on PP1. The next two weeks could be huge for his value. KHL playoffs are going on. 2G in their 1st game.

Kravtsov isn't worth more than guys like Yak and Filatov when they were trade, ie a late 2nd rd pick.

Lekh is worth nore than 2 2nd rd picks

 

[TGWL]

this is all one needs to read about these clown takes to move on from trade discussions.
and habs aren't trading lehkonen for a 2nd - who might someday turn into a lehkonen maybe
or a shitty prospect that will never make the team

That's what happens when you trade players, especially ones who aren't stars where you're getting top ranked prospects back. You're getting magic beans with potential or prospects who could turn into a top 9, top 6, d, whatever positions you're looking for. You don't get an equal player coming back and stepping immediately in the lineup.

So Montreal needs to make a decision - is he a long term piece or even a short term piece, because they don't have to trade him yet. If the answer is yes, then he shouldn't be on the block unless there's an overpayment, and I don't think going from a second to a 1st is an overpayment on a valued player to the organization.

If the answer is no for any long or short term commitment, then the expectation shouldn't be a player coming back who matches the player going out. It should be getting best you can get back.

 

[bernmeister]

No team* in 30+ years has won the Stanley Cup after missing the playoffs two or more years prior. It's likely even more striking than that, but I stopped looking once I hit the 1980s. Collective team playoff experience (ie: the team as a group, not individual players having playoff experience 4 or 5+ years ago on a dozen different teams) is pretty much the only constant in a Stanley Cup winning recipe. The Rangers don't have it.

* The lone "exception" is the Canes in 2006 who missed two seasons in a row before winning the Cup, though that season was a massive outlier due to the new rules and the missed season from the lockout. They also had gone to the Stanley Cup final the season before their two missed playoff seasons, and had 8 players from that group still on the roster.

great post, very informative, thank you

Kravtsov isn't worth more than guys like Yak and Filatov when they were trade, ie a late 2nd rd pick.

Lekh is worth nore than 2 2nd rd picks

Setting aside the bold is open to dispute [NYR badly effed this but at least did not (et anyway) deal him for less; I suspect a 2nd has been on the table but was rejected as insufficient], there is a big dif.

Those guys were actual losers, and in the case of Yak playing w/high end Oil talent was not enuf to save him.

Krav has NOT had meaningful mins w/1st liners, which is what is needed to prove he himself is a 1st liner.

 

[LokiDog]

Whether or not the Rangers are actual contenders this year, I am interested in these pieces.

Copp I would bring in for the playoffs and then extend and let Strome walk this summer. Lehkonen I would absolutely resign to become a third line staple. Next season you go with:

Kreids - Zib - Laf
Bread - Copp - Kakko
Lehk - Goodrow - Blais/Otthman/Cuylle
Hunt - Barron - Reaves


Jones - Schneider should be the third pair going forward. Hajek looks fine as a 7th and we have other guys coming along, like Robertson. Dump Nemeth at the draft, attach a pick if you have to. Move Chytil in one of the trades. Lundkvist, Kravstov are movable prospects. One 1st round and another 2nd can be on the board as well.

 

[Goal Caufield50]

Kreider and Bread are 30. Not 35+. Zib is what, 28? All three players will be just fine for several years to come. The cap is the issue. The Rangers don't have any space after this year, and none of the contracts that can create space can be easily moved due to NMC's. The team, collectively as a group, also has no playoff experience, which historically is THE crucial ingredient in a Cup winner (I went back more than 30 years, and only one team won the Cup after missing the playoffs more than one year prior to the Cup run, and that was the Canes, who benefitted from a strange situation with the lockout).

The smart move is to stay the course for two more seasons. Continue developing kids like Kakko, Laf, Chytil, and the young guys on D. Then, when the cap is set to go up in two years (ie: the projected end of the flat cap), they will have a team with playoff experience, the current kids will be entering their primes, Zib and Trouba will still just be 30 years old, and Kreider and Bread will be 32 as the "elder statesmen" of the roster. They'll also have kids like Othmann, Cuylle, Berard and co pushing for spots.

The time is not "now." Statistically (re: the playoff experience factor), winning "now" would be a massive anomaly. The Rangers window opens in two years. Any buying they DO do right now should be in the discount aisle.

That said, I am interested in Copp in UFA (depending on his ask) as a potential Strome replacement.

So how are you going to pay the kids as you say? Well you can’t so that is the why now rationale. As a top six team in points league wide you go for it. Top six ckeck , top 4 check. Top goaltender check. Time to get depth and make a run

 

[smoneil]

So how are you going to pay the kids as you say? Well you can’t so that is the why now rationale. As a top six team in points league wide you go for it. Top six ckeck , top 4 check. Top goaltender check. Time to get depth and make a run

By adding now, you lose ELCs and bring in contracts that you won't be able to afford to keep past next season. Kakko needs a new contract this summer and Strome needs to be replaced. Next summer, Lafreniere, Chytil, and K'Andre Miller need new contracts. There is just enough money to get this done (via bridge deals) and still fill out the roster. There is no room to add MAJOR pieces. The cap is expected to go way up after the flat cap ends in a couple of years. That also coincides with several of the teams' larger NMC contracts (Kreider, Trouba) converting to modified NTC. There is ONLY enough money for the next couple of years to pay the kids. Next year will almost certainly be a bit of a step back (still in the playoffs, but not as high up the standings). The team needs to be patient, make reasonable adds on rentals that won't cost a ton, and play the long game. Cap flexibility, young players hitting the ages where they tend to be entering their primes, and playoff experience will all be happening simultaneously in two more years.

Or, they can do what you suggest, and blow their load in terms of high end trade-able assets in the hopes that they might just be the first team to EVER (in the modern era) win the Cup after missing the playoffs more than two years running. I bet you're a "spend your entire paycheck on powerball tickets, because if you buy a LOT of them, you're sure to win" kinda fella, aren't you?

 

[Goal Caufield50]

By adding now, you lose ELCs and bring in contracts that you won't be able to afford to keep past next season. Kakko needs a new contract this summer and Strome needs to be replaced. Next summer, Lafreniere, Chytil, and K'Andre Miller need new contracts. There is just enough money to get this done (via bridge deals) and still fill out the roster. There is no room to add MAJOR pieces. The cap is expected to go way up after the flat cap ends in a couple of years. That also coincides with several of the teams' larger NMC contracts (Kreider, Trouba) converting to modified NTC. There is ONLY enough money for the next couple of years to pay the kids. Next year will almost certainly be a bit of a step back (still in the playoffs, but not as high up the standings). The team needs to be patient, make reasonable adds on rentals that won't cost a ton, and play the long game. Cap flexibility, young players hitting the ages where they tend to be entering their primes, and playoff experience will all be happening simultaneously in two more years.

Or, they can do what you suggest, and blow their load in terms of high end trade-able assets in the hopes that they might just be the first team to EVER (in the modern era) win the Cup after missing the playoffs more than two years running. I bet you're a "spend your entire paycheck on powerball tickets, because if you buy a LOT of them, you're sure to win" kinda fella, aren't you?

Keep dreaming

 

[Hobnobs]

As a wings fan I think Namestnikov is probably a more realistic target for the Rags 3rd line and ambitions. At least compared to Lekhonen who Habs probably want to keep unless an offer blows them away.

 

[Scintillating10]

Chytil for Lehkonen makes sense. Both have a 2.3 mil contract, with Chytil having an extra year. Gorton drafted Chytil, who is still only 22. He'll get more time/opportunities playing in Montreal.

Making that swap helps the Rangers to resign Lehkonen this summer.

We don't want Chytil. No offense from him. I would keep Lekhonen unless get over payment. He is playing well since St.Louis took over.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Kravtsov isn't worth more than guys like Yak and Filatov when they were trade, ie a late 2nd rd pick.

Lekh is worth nore than 2 2nd rd picks

What’s Caufield worth?

 

[SlyIslands]

What’s Caufield worth?

Multiple first but Kravtsov is not worth more then a 2nd

 

[Mersss]

What’s Caufield worth?

Caufield is actually playong in the NHL, producing at a 45pts pace over his career as of now.

Oh and Kravtsov is also older than Caufield. Hit me up when Kravtsov ACTUALLY does something in North America cause even when he played in the AHL, he wasn't producing as much as Caufield was in the NHL

 

[John Mandalorian]

Caufield is actually playong in the NHL, producing at a 45pts pace over his career as of now.

Oh and Kravtsov is also older than Caufield. Hit me up when Kravtsov ACTUALLY does something in North America cause even when he played in the AHL, he wasn't producing as much as Caufield was in the NHL

OK. But he’s been on a whopping 45 point pace for 5 minutes. Very slick.

 

[Mersss]

OK. But he’s been on a whopping 45 point pace for 5 minutes. Very slick.

What's Kravtsov pace buddy?

Oh yeah sweet nothing cause the guy's a cry baby and can get paid in Russia instead. Yah his value is a late 2nd at most. GL wiith that

 

[jay from jersey]

Your right, you don't have to tell me what you don't know because its pretty obvious what you don't know. Furthermore, i am really hoping the Habs keep him and don't trade him at the TDL.

I also question why the NYR would even trade for Lehkonen given that they are not a contender. NYR are playing on house money and best to stand pat. Lehkonen is not going to change the NYR chances at winning a cup. That's a steep uphill climb...

Shesty+ FWD group and Fox and a solid defensive 6 this season makes the rangers not an easy out for anyone....
Rangers have a good PP/PK as well.....
Any team that thinks beating shesty and NYR 4 times is going to be Easy has another thing coming....
Especially if NYR adds a solid middle/bottom 6 wing to their current roster.
Not too mention Kakko returning, and if NYR makes a deep playoff run, possibly Blais as well.
Rangers are gonna surprise some people in the East this year...

 

[Habs Halifax]

OK. But he’s been on a whopping 45 point pace for 5 minutes. Very slick.

Caufield went from a very good playoffs to a very disappointing regular season where there were many ripple effects to Ducharme's coaching style this season. With MSL, Caufield looks like the guy from the playoffs again. I suspect more rollercoaster movement but he's clearly showing his potential more and more now that he has a stable spot in the line-up.

We are interested in Kravtsov to some degree (potential for high reward or bust type) but at this point in time, I would have him as a B+ prospect. At the age of 22 and not able to crack a NHL roster, he's not a grade A. He could regain that status but he's got a lot of work to do to get there.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Shesty+ FWD group and Fox and a solid defensive 6 this season makes the rangers not an easy out for anyone....
Rangers have a good PP/PK as well.....
Any team that thinks beating shesty and NYR 4 times is going to be Easy has another thing coming....
Especially if NYR adds a solid middle/bottom 6 wing to their current roster.
Not too mention Kakko returning, and if NYR makes a deep playoff run, possibly Blais as well.
Rangers are gonna surprise some people in the East this year...

I do think the Rangers could cause some damage in the playoffs but then I wonder if the D core can sustain their level of play when the going gets rough in the playoffs?

* Oldest vet is Nemeth at age 30.
* Most complete 200' guy is Trouba. Warrior type who will be leaned on heavy
* Offensive type in Fox who holds his own in the D zone. Lindgren ready to play top minutes with Fox at the age of 24? We will see
* Youngers in Miller and Schneider are the wild cards. Physical big big bodies that will have to show maturity.

Personally, I think this is a test type playoffs for the Rangers core moving forward. If you leave your D as is, then yeah, shore up the center of the ice and 200' wingers to help them. Offense does dry up in the playoffs and the depth guys tend to be the difference in many cases. Look at Tampa's 3rd line last year

 

[jay from jersey]

I do think the Rangers could cause some damage in the playoffs but then I wonder if the D core can sustain their level of play when the going gets rough in the playoffs?

* Oldest vet is Nemeth at age 30.
* Most complete 200' guy is Trouba. Warrior type who will be leaned on heavy
* Offensive type in Fox who holds his own in the D zone. Lindgren ready to play top minutes with Fox at the age of 24? We will see
* Youngers in Miller and Schneider are the wild cards. Physical big big bodies that will have to show maturity.

Personally, I think this is a test type playoffs for the Rangers core moving forward. If you leave your D as is, then yeah, shore up the center of the ice and 200' wingers to help them. Offense does dry up in the playoffs and the depth guys tend to be the difference in many cases. Look at Tampa's 3rd line last year

More so about getting their 3rd/4th lines to cause a mismatch...
LaF has been great up with kreids/Zibby.
Panarin/strome and presumably kakko when he returns.

4th line is fine with Hunt-Rooney-Reaves. They don’t provide a ton of offense, but they do their job and don’t hurt the team....

adding to the 3rd line with Goodrow to cause a legit mismatch hard core forechecking line should be drurys key focus.
We know goodrow is a playoff savage, but he should have a better winger then Gauthier. Especially offensively.... they can always shift kakko down and put whoever they trade for with strome/panarin as well....
Having Blais out for the season sucks, so we most def will be adding 1 impact fwd at least imo.
Likely a Lehkonen/Paul/Jarnkrok type...

 

[bernmeister]

Whether or not the Rangers are actual contenders this year, I am interested in these pieces.

Copp I would bring in for the playoffs and then extend and let Strome walk this summer. Lehkonen I would absolutely resign to become a third line staple. Next season you go with:

Kreids - Zib - Laf
Bread - Copp - Kakko
Lehk - Goodrow - Blais/Otthman/Cuylle
Hunt - Barron - Reaves


Jones - Schneider should be the third pair going forward. Hajek looks fine as a 7th and we have other guys coming along, like Robertson. Dump Nemeth at the draft, attach a pick if you have to. Move Chytil in one of the trades. Lundkvist, Kravstov are movable prospects. One 1st round and another 2nd can be on the board as well.

you are forgetting
ALL of Strome + Geo + Hajek + Nemeth + 1.5 cap recovery goes for Zib+Fox $
all of it, without replacement
we are still likely forced to deal Lindgren's 3 x3 for scratch on LaF + Kakko +

Copp + Lekh are not doable b'c Strome $ is spoken for, and we don't have guys we can trade b'c way too many players have nmc/ntc clauses

If the market is high enough for Jones, we should deal him and later go w/Nils L. Comparable and both play either side. But Nils has best shot of any D on the team. Go bigger picture.

So how are you going to pay the kids as you say? Well you can’t so that is the why now rationale. As a top six team in points league wide you go for it. Top six ckeck , top 4 check. Top goaltender check. Time to get depth and make a run

Wrong, you do not attempt to put a fire out by throwing gasoline on it.
You deprive it of fuel or oxygen.
Youth = elcs/more cost controlled assets = what is needed to put out the upcoming cap fire, which you do not ignore and def do not make worse by dealing youth and adding vets.

Consider the wisdom of Prof @smoneil ...

By adding now, you lose ELCs and bring in contracts that you won't be able to afford to keep past next season. Kakko needs a new contract this summer and Strome needs to be replaced. Next summer, Lafreniere, Chytil, and K'Andre Miller need new contracts. There is just enough money to get this done (via bridge deals) and still fill out the roster. There is no room to add MAJOR pieces. The cap is expected to go way up after the flat cap ends in a couple of years. That also coincides with several of the teams' larger NMC contracts (Kreider, Trouba) converting to modified NTC. There is ONLY enough money for the next couple of years to pay the kids. Next year will almost certainly be a bit of a step back (still in the playoffs, but not as high up the standings). The team needs to be patient, make reasonable adds on rentals that won't cost a ton, and play the long game. Cap flexibility, young players hitting the ages where they tend to be entering their primes, and playoff experience will all be happening simultaneously in two more years.

Or, they can do what you suggest, and blow their load in terms of high end trade-able assets in the hopes that they might just be the first team to EVER (in the modern era) win the Cup after missing the playoffs more than two years running. I bet you're a "spend your entire paycheck on powerball tickets, because if you buy a LOT of them, you're sure to win" kinda fella, aren't you?

well said.

Keep dreaming

counter dat w/short excerpt from Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody:
"...open your eyes and see..."

We don't want Chytil. No offense from him. I would keep Lekhonen unless get over payment. He is playing well since St.Louis took over.

Don't want to move Chytil, so we good. Chytil has continued upside, and is replacement when we can't and shouldn't give Strome ANY extension let alone a multiyear increase from 4.5 to 6ish neighborhood. Instead of being so quick to ditch Chytil, who looks good w/Gauthier, we should be seeing if we have a scorer to complete that line, pref Pajuneimi

Caufield went from a very good playoffs to a very disappointing regular season where there were many ripple effects to Ducharme's coaching style this season. With MSL, Caufield looks like the guy from the playoffs again. I suspect more rollercoaster movement but he's clearly showing his potential more and more now that he has a stable spot in the line-up.

We are interested in Kravtsov to some degree (potential for high reward or bust type) but at this point in time, I would have him as a B+ prospect. At the age of 22 and not able to crack a NHL roster, he's not a grade A. He could regain that status but he's got a lot of work to do to get there.

Congrats to you on Caufield return to the living. Still not interested.
Krav I do not begrudge you we all want a bargain, but for umpteenth time, smart thing here is for NY to play this guy top line and let us all see what he really has, which on paper/eye test [size, skating, etc, etc] is significant [which is why there is interest]. Howev, I am not optimistic that as relates to Krav, Drury will do the right thing over his ego.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Congrats to you on Caufield return to the living. Still not interested.
Krav I do not begrudge you we all want a bargain, but for umpteenth time, smart thing here is for NY to play this guy top line and let us all see what he really has, which on paper/eye test [size, skating, etc, etc] is significant [which is why there is interest]. Howev, I am not optimistic that as relates to Krav, Drury will do the right thing over his ego.

I just told you some context into Caufield. Interested or not, Habs are not shopping Caufield.

 

[bernmeister]

I just told you some context into Caufield. Interested or not, Habs are not shopping Caufield.

we good -- another post earlier inferred NY was interested, which was covered in other threads. And again, congrats on his return to good form

 

[TGWL]

Whether or not the Rangers are actual contenders this year, I am interested in these pieces.

Copp I would bring in for the playoffs and then extend and let Strome walk this summer. Lehkonen I would absolutely resign to become a third line staple. Next season you go with:

Kreids - Zib - Laf
Bread - Copp - Kakko
Lehk - Goodrow - Blais/Otthman/Cuylle
Hunt - Barron - Reaves


Jones - Schneider should be the third pair going forward. Hajek looks fine as a 7th and we have other guys coming along, like Robertson. Dump Nemeth at the draft, attach a pick if you have to. Move Chytil in one of the trades. Lundkvist, Kravstov are movable prospects. One 1st round and another 2nd can be on the board as well.

I struggle to automatically pencil in Copp as a 2c when he basically plays wing aside from taking the dot. If you think he can play 2c, sure. If you he's going to continue being a winger, then it doesn't make sense to extend him for a 3rd line role. I think if Jets thought Copp could be a good 2c he wouldn't be on the board and they'd probably just move Scheifele for a much better return and run with PLD and Copp (assuming they can afford and sign PLD).