Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[BraveCanadian]

I mean Mario was 20 in his second year when he outscored his closest by 60 while playing with the likes Randy Cunnyworth and Doug Shedden. In that year there were only two players on the Penguins who finished above a PPG pace where as in Wayne's early years it was pretty common there were 7 to 8 teammates and usually 4 of them were in the 100s. In his first 6 seasons, which many can argue were his best stretch (mostly because of health), he played with maybe one HoFer, and that was only for the last couple seasons (Paul Coffey).

Anyways, we can talk stats and stuff all we want, but for me the eye test was key. I was able to be a nerdy hockey fan for both of them and I just found Lemieux to be a better all around hockey player. Simple as that. You can throw the 212 points or 92 goals or whatnot all you want, it's not going to change my opinion.


If you're talking team success then sure, but you can also argue his individual best years were his first 6 or so before injuries started depriving us. Outside of Coffey you'd be hard pressed to find another HoF (because there wasn't any).

So this is the Gretzky came into the league and went right on a team full of superstars argument again?

Cause that didn’t happen either.

 

[TheBeard]

So this is the Gretzky came into the league and went right on a team full of superstars argument again?

Cause that didn’t happen either.

Superstars? No. Future Hall Of Famers? Perhaps. By year two he was playing with five of em.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Superstars? No. Future Hall Of Famers? Perhaps. By year two he was playing with five of em.

The problem with this reasoning every time it is brought up is that “playing with them” and “them being HoFs” are two different things entirely.

By this (incorrect but play along) logic, Gretzky was even better because he out scored his next highest teammate 164-75 and that guy with 75 is supposedly a hall of famer himself and not just some bum like Lemieux out scored by less.

The names on the backs of the jerseys may have eventually become hall of famers, but they sure weren’t yet when Gretzky was first obliterating records.

 

[TheBeard]

The problem with this reasoning every time it is brought up is that “playing with them” and “them being HoFs” are two different things entirely.

By this (incorrect but play along) logic, Gretzky was even better because he out scored his next highest teammate 164-75 and that guy with 75 is supposedly a hall of famer himself and not just some bum like Lemieux out scored by less.

The names on the backs of the jerseys may have eventually become hall of famers, but they sure weren’t yet when Gretzky was first obliterating records.

Well therein lies the conundrum. Messier at 21 was already a 50 goal scorer. Jari Kurri in his first season at 20 was a PPG player. Glenn Anderson had over 100 points his second at 21. Paul Coffey at 20 was a 90 point guy his second. So unless you want to completely undermine what all four of those players accomplished in their careers to prop up Wayne then sobeit. But for me, I've always been more impressed by the Best player excelling on a team that had no others than I am the best player on a team filled with them. It's harder to stop a team with a multitude of stars than it is a team with one and then the shell of Terry Ruskowski.

Again, we're arguing opinions, not facts.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Well therein lies the conundrum. Messier at 21 was already a 50 goal scorer. Jari Kurri in his first season at 20 was a PPG player. Glenn Anderson had over 100 points his second at 21. Paul Coffey at 20 was a 90 point guy his second. So unless you want to completely undermine what all four of those players accomplished in their careers to prop up Wayne then sobeit. But for me, I've always been more impressed by the Best player excelling on a team that had no others than I am the best player on a team filled with them. It's harder to stop a team with a multitude of stars than it is a team with one and then the shell of Terry Ruskowski.

Again, we're arguing opinions, not facts.

Gretzky set the point record on a sub .500 club before any of these guys did anything.

 

[TheBeard]

Gretzky set the point record on a sub .500 club before any of these guys did anything.

Which was about the same age (or games in the NHL) as Mario when he was putting up the same (or nearly) totals. It's when the other HoFers became absolute superstars (and not just budding superstars) where Wayne's point totals exploded. When Mario had his 199 point season he was playing on a line with Rob Brown (who was CLEARLY a product of Mario based on how fast his career tanked upon being traded) and Phil Bourque.

Again, I don't mind continuing this debate, but I doubt either will change the others' mind.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Which was about the same age (or games in the NHL) as Mario when he was putting up the same (or nearly) totals. It's when the other HoFers became absolute superstars (and not just budding superstars) where Wayne's point totals exploded. When Mario had his 199 point season he was playing on a line with Rob Brown (who was CLEARLY a product of Mario based on how fast his career tanked upon being traded) and Phil Bourque.

Again, I don't mind continuing this debate, but I doubt either will change the others' mind.

Round and round we go and we even try the Rob Brown while trying to play down the full fledged superstar Coffey method.. done this too many times. The team argument for Lemieux never works for the obvious reasons I have said.

Have a good one.

 

[TheBeard]

Round and round we go and we even try the Rob Brown while trying to play down the full fledged superstar Coffey method.. done this too many times. The team argument for Lemieux never works for the obvious reasons I have said.

Have a good one.

I didn't know Paul Coffey played on a line with Mario.

Learn something new every day.

 

[Beukeboom]

Superstars? No. Future Hall Of Famers? Perhaps. By year two he was playing with five of em.

I don't understand your reasoning. When Gretzky scored 212 points year three, Kurri and Lumely had 86 and 74. How exactly is Kurri's point totals later in his career helpful to Wayne that season? Messier and Coffey had 88 and 89 points.

Gretzky already scored at an extraterrestrial 200+ point level before the others were 100 point players. The whole "he had an All Star team" is a sloppy way of trying to diminish Wayne's dominance.

 

[MCR74]

So when will the 2nd greatest of all time show up in this series?

 

[KJoe88]

So when will the 2nd greatest of all time show up in this series?

Teams win Stanley Cups.

 

[MCR74]

Teams win Stanley Cups.

But we were told that McDavid would light up the Panthers. We're waiting.

 

[KJoe88]

But we were told that McDavid would light up the Panthers. We're waiting.

We were also told 69 goals would be enough to get past round one.

Just stop. The McDavid hate comments are silly.

 

[MCR74]

We were also told 69 goals would be enough to get past round one.

Just stop. The McDavid hate comments are silly.

What does Matthews have to do with this thread?

f*** McDavid. For the so-called best player in the world, he's yet to show it.

 

[KJoe88]

What does Matthews have to do with this thread?

f*** McDavid. For the so-called best player in the world, he's yet to show it.

My 69 goal comment was silly. As was yours. That’s the point. You refused to acknowledge that McDavid can’t do it alone; no matter how good.

Absolutely great retort, btw.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

What does Matthews have to do with this thread?

f*** McDavid. For the so-called best player in the world, he's yet to show it.

Yeah not like he’s leading the playoffs in scoring… again

 

[Suntouchable13]

It’s very hard to even win one, let alone multiple nowadays. Take a look around the league. Tampa got lucky. If he and the Oilers don’t win the next 4 of 5, who knows when the next chance will be. It’s very hard to get back to the final 2nd time in a row. We can not evaluate players on cups, even a player like McDavid.

 

[cowboy82nd]

We were also told 69 goals would be enough to get past round one.

Just stop. The McDavid hate comments are silly.

delete

 

[Albatros]

Superstars? No. Future Hall Of Famers? Perhaps. By year two he was playing with five of em.

Year two Risto Siltanen was better than any of them yet. Gretzky was lucky to have the supporting cast that he did, but he proved his worth already before the team as a whole became an epic powerhouse.

 

[quackquackquack]

It’s very hard to even win one, let alone multiple nowadays. Take a look around the league. Tampa got lucky. If he and the Oilers don’t win the next 4 of 5, who knows when the next chance will be. It’s very hard to get back to the final 2nd time in a row. We can not evaluate players on cups, even a player like McDavid.

I get this but the OMG he's from another planet generational thing should mean he wins ONE cup. If he gets waxed this SCF and then fails to win a cup in his career that's a failure in my opinion.

 

[Hockeyholic]

I get this but the OMG he's from another planet generational thing should mean he wins ONE cup. If he gets waxed this SCF and then fails to win a cup in his career that's a failure in my opinion.

Agreed

 

[Cursed Lemon]

McDavid should still be able to show up in a series even if his team doesn't win. He has no points in two games right now, that has to change.

Having said that, peak Crosby and Malkin had their Boston series. It happens.

 

[jigglysquishy]

McDavid should still be able to show up in a series even if his team doesn't win. He has no points in two games right now, that has to change.

Having said that, peak Crosby and Malkin had their Boston series. It happens.

He actually got the assist on their lone goal in the series.

 

[Mike C]

Superstars? No. Future Hall Of Famers? Perhaps. By year two he was playing with five of em.

Possibly at least in part due to Gretzky's presence and impact on their careers?

 

[DitchMarner]

McDavid should still be able to show up in a series even if his team doesn't win. He has no points in two games right now, that has to change.

Having said that, peak Crosby and Malkin had their Boston series. It happens.

He did have the primary on their lone goal so far. He's looked pretty good to me with the puck in the series and has definitely seemed like their most dangerous player. I have a feeling he'll have a big game three. I'll be surprised if he doesn't put up at least three or four points in the next two games.