Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[spcastlemagic]

But it's not impossible "just because".

For Orr I agree it's hard to compare a guy that basically only played his prime years, but aside from his insane peak it's also important to take into account the change he had on the game and how he reshaped the defensive position. Do guys like Coffey, Karlsson, Makar exist if Orr didn't change the perception of what role a defenseman could play on the ice?

In Lemieux's case you can't just compare raw hardware numbers, because it's the circumstances he won so many of his awards in that make his career so legendary.

I'm not arguing McDavid doesn't have a similar level of generational talent, but at this point what's his legacy? By McDavid's age now Orr was already the defacto greatest defenseman of all time and Mario was winning Rosses, Harts, and Smythes while beating cancer and dealing with crippling back surgeries. There's still time for him to be legendary, but Orr and Mario had basically carved their faces on hockey's Mount Rushmore by 26.

Lemieux’s son was born premature, he stayed up 3 straight days in the hospital, and when the doctor’s told him Austin was gonna make it, he drove to the Arena, suited up, and potted 5 goals against Gretzky’s Blues. Before you say the D wasn’t as good back then - the D on him was Pronger. He added 2 assists for good measure.

No advanced analytic can capture the glory of that. Lemieux was larger than life. For McDavid to surpass that, he has to start doing genuinely incredible things. Lemieux used hockey to showcase the indomitable nature of the human spirit. That’s beyond individual hardware.

 

[HFpapi]

But it's not impossible "just because".

For Orr I agree it's hard to compare a guy that basically only played his prime years, but aside from his insane peak it's also important to take into account the change he had on the game and how he reshaped the defensive position. Do guys like Coffey, Karlsson, Makar exist if Orr didn't change the perception of what role a defenseman could play on the ice?

In Lemieux's case you can't just compare raw hardware numbers, because it's the circumstances he won so many of his awards in that make his career so legendary.

I'm not arguing McDavid doesn't have a similar level of generational talent, but at this point what's his legacy? By McDavid's age now Orr was already the defacto greatest defenseman of all time and Mario was winning Rosses, Harts, and Smythes while beating cancer and dealing with crippling back surgeries. There's still time for him to be legendary, but Orr and Mario had basically carved their faces on hockey's Mount Rushmore by 26.

Easier to do when you played basically 15 years after the NHL became a serious league where guys didn't need side jobs to make ends meet.

The league is a multi-billion $ enterprise now where players start training year round from the age of 8 years old and the game is coached and analyzed to all hell.

Little harder to be a revolutionary in this day and age. McDavid's skating ability relative to his peers and the way he moves over the ice is every bit as remarkable as Orr was in his day.

You could argue the way McDavid plays the PP is going to revolutionise hockey. So much of a teams offence now is generated on the PP and McDavid leads the all-time best PP. The way he roves around and uses non-stop movement to keep a PK from setting up rather than a standard umbrella formation or whatever.

A lot of people think hockey is going to become a positionless sport. While Orr is one of the OG's of this trend, McDavid is carrying it forward too. Watching him play you can barely assign him a position, he's all over the ice.

 

[HFpapi]

Lemieux’s son was born premature, he stayed up 3 straight days in the hospital, and when the doctor’s told him Austin was gonna make it, he drove to the Arena, suited up, and potted 5 goals against Gretzky’s Blues. Before you say the D wasn’t as good back then - the D on him was Pronger. He added 2 assists for good measure.

No advanced analytic can capture the glory of that. Lemieux was larger than life. For McDavid to surpass that, he has to start doing genuinely incredible things. Lemieux used hockey to showcase the indomitable nature of the human spirit. That’s beyond individual hardware.

I have Mario as my #2 greatest player of all time so you don't have to sell me on him but unfortunately when you have a guy whose peak is actually pretty comparable (I know people hate adjusted stats but you can't just compare raw totals from the 80's either), the trials and tribulations that give Mario such an aura start to work against him.

It's insane that he came back from 3 years of retirement and finished 2nd in MVP voting. One of the greatest sports stories ever. But those 3 years off aren't in his favour when McDavid is bearing down on his 6th Ross and 4th MVP at only 26 years old.

The time off from cancer and back issues makes Mario's number all the more crazy but let's not pretend missed time helps Mario against a guy who is offensively basically just as good but who didn't miss all of that time.

If Mcdavid ends up with 8 Rosses and 6 Harts (vs Mario 6 & 3), you have to start asking questions.

 

[nbwingsfan]

You didn't get the answer you wanted. I'm not saying it is fair, or winning a Cup makes a player automatically better. But it attaches prestige you can't get no matter how many points you pile up.

Only Flames fans talk about how great Iggy was in 2004.

So why isn’t Osgood in the HoF, talked about one of the all time greats the same way Lundqvist is?

Why isnt Darren McCarty in the HoF? Kris Draper? Do young kids even know who Kris Draper is? Everyone knows who Iginla is

 

[nbwingsfan]

If there was an HF back in the 90s there would be people saying Gretzky isn't the Goat because of reasons. People will find some of these opinions just as comical in a few years.

Hell you still have people doing that today.

I remember arguing with a fool a few years ago who thought Gretzky would be no more than a 70pt player today, similar to a player like Jiri Hudler

 

[Arthur Morgan]

There is zero argument that he isn’t already top 10 lol

I kinda view him still stuck in a giant mix of players that you could argue deserves to be there more but McDavid is slowly pushing all that aside and locking himself in top 10. still young.
i dunno maybe he deserves to be there right now

 

[Midnight Judges]

It's insane that he came back from 3 years of retirement and finished 2nd in MVP voting.

It is insane - because Lemieux flat out didn't deserve it. Jagr out scored Lemieux in the games they played together, and Jagr also scored 45 more points and 17 more goals that season.

Lemieux was a quitter who had quit. Somehow in the hockey media this is all good - a total neutral event. In real life, quitting is generally looked down upon because it harms the team.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Lemieux’s son was born premature, he stayed up 3 straight days in the hospital, and when the doctor’s told him Austin was gonna make it, he drove to the Arena, suited up, and potted 5 goals against Gretzky’s Blues. Before you say the D wasn’t as good back then - the D on him was Pronger. He added 2 assists for good measure.

No advanced analytic can capture the glory of that. Lemieux was larger than life. For McDavid to surpass that, he has to start doing genuinely incredible things. Lemieux used hockey to showcase the indomitable nature of the human spirit. That’s beyond individual hardware.

And yet, he took his stick, thru a tantrum and went home when he retired in 97 because he didn’t think they were calling enough penalties on players for him.

He was a bit of a prick who could have been so much better had he not whinned so much and actually have 100% effort

 

[Midnight Judges]

The time off from cancer and back issues makes Mario's number all the more crazy but let's not pretend missed time helps Mario against a guy who is offensively basically just as good but who didn't miss all of that time.

That is just perverse.

No - quitting, having poor conditioning, and lacking durability do not make Lemieux better. Those things are blemishes. Nobody wants a player to have those attributes.

 

[authentic]

Forsberg was a great player and known to perform extraordinarily well from Game 1 to Game 4 or 5 in a playoff series. More often than not, when two equally skilled/driven teams locked the horns and the series went the distance, Forsberg's production plummeted in the high pressure phase, i.e. Games 6 & 7. He somewhat improved that resume in 2002, but upon a closer look, he was not as superclutch as a lot of people believe.

Those games often wouldn’t have happened without him though. This is actually true of a lot of elite players and not just Forsberg as well.

 

[authentic]

And yet, he took his stick, thru a tantrum and went home when he retired in 97 because he didn’t think they were calling enough penalties on players for him.

He was a bit of a prick who could have been so much better had he not whinned so much and actually have 100% effort

That is just perverse.

No - quitting, having poor conditioning, and lacking durability do not make Lemieux better. Those things are blemishes. Nobody wants a player to have those attributes.

Weird how such a huge quitter and whiner would come back from chemo and radiation and immediately put up nearly 3 points per game for the remainder of the season. Why wouldn’t he just take the year off? He had the perfect excuse.

 

[Dr Pepper]

That is just perverse.

No - quitting, having poor conditioning, and lacking durability do not make Lemieux better. Those things are blemishes. Nobody wants a player to have those attributes.

Are you doing a bit? What is this nonsense?

Stepping away from the game due to cancer =/= "quitting".

 

[lakai17]

Needs more than 2 rings at least

 

[Midnight Judges]

Are you doing a bit? What is this nonsense?

Stepping away from the game due to cancer =/= "quitting".

Lemieux missed 22 games with cancer. He came back that very same season. He was fine and played well.

He missed 3 years due to being a quitter. Then he decided to stop quitting mid season. He could have easily played to start the season. He simply chose not to. The 1993 bout with cancer didn't prevent him from playing in October and November of 2000.

Of course he would blame the back problems yet somehow that didn't seem to harm his golf swing.

 

[HFpapi]

That is just perverse.

No - quitting, having poor conditioning, and lacking durability do not make Lemieux better. Those things are blemishes. Nobody wants a player to have those attributes.

I didn't say they make him better, I said it makes his numbers more remarkable. Pretty obvious difference.

Also with this "quitting" nonsense. Dude had cancer and a back so bad he couldn't tie his own skates.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Weird how such a huge quitter and whiner would come back from chemo and radiation and immediately put up nearly 3 points per game for the remainder of the season. Why wouldn’t he just take the year off? He had the perfect excuse.

You say that is if a player would be looking for a reason not to play.

In 1993 the Pens were still the best team in the NHL. After 1997 when Lemieux and Jagr both had great seasons but the team was barely the 10th best team, Lemieux was less motivated to play.

 

[authentic]

You say that is if a player would be looking for a reason not to play.

In 1993 the Pens were still the best team in the NHL. After 1997 when Lemieux and Jagr both had great seasons but the team was barely the 10th best team, Lemieux was less motivated to play.

Well jeez what a loser then

 

[Midnight Judges]

I didn't say they make him better, I said it makes his numbers more remarkable. Pretty obvious difference.

No. Not really. You are claiming that his poor attributes somehow increase the value of his good attributes.

It is perverse.

Well jeez what a loser then

Lemieux is a player with serious flaws. They are real negatives.

Sacrilege to say, I know.

Whereas Wayne Gretzky showed up, played, and he deserves full credit for it.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I have Mario as my #2 greatest player of all time so you don't have to sell me on him but unfortunately when you have a guy whose peak is actually pretty comparable (I know people hate adjusted stats but you can't just compare raw totals from the 80's either), the trials and tribulations that give Mario such an aura start to work against him.

It's insane that he came back from 3 years of retirement and finished 2nd in MVP voting. One of the greatest sports stories ever. But those 3 years off aren't in his favour when McDavid is bearing down on his 6th Ross and 4th MVP at only 26 years old.

The time off from cancer and back issues makes Mario's number all the more crazy but let's not pretend missed time helps Mario against a guy who is offensively basically just as good but who didn't miss all of that time.

If Mcdavid ends up with 8 Rosses and 6 Harts (vs Mario 6 & 3), you have to start asking questions.

Not if there's no cups or smythes lol

 

[MadLuke]

Did it?

Impossible to be factual about it, but they went from a 31w-30w team to a 42 wins team that beat the Oilers in the playoff despite loosing a 55 goals scorer (Carson) when they added Gretzky.

 

[HFpapi]

Not if there's no cups or smythes lol

Mario's teams were routinely some of the worst in the league and missed playoffs often. He made playoffs only once in his first 6 seasons before getting surrounded by 1st ballot HOF'ers (Coffey, Jagr, Francis, Murphy, Recchi) and winning 2 cups.

Mario missed the playoffs (9 times) more than he made it (8 times) in his career.

This is all to say, one player does not a team make, no matter how special that player is.

 

[Frank Drebin]

They Oilers now have, Hyman, Kane, RNH, and Foegele as top six forwards. Ryan, Janmark, Gagner, in the bottom six.

On defence they have Ekholm, Nurse, and Bouchard.

Are we really making the case that the 2nd greatest player of all time (who supposedly also plays with the second best player in the league right now), can't win because his third line and bottom pairing D aren't good enough?

The second best player of all time should be able to elevate a group like that. Yes teams in the 80s/90s were more stacked, but so was the competition.

We can make whatever case we want to. Have a great day.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Bourque essentially dragged the Bruins to two finals in three years in the middle of his prime. (Neely played well but he wasn't the straw that stirred the drink). Sure, he lost both times albeit to a dynasty. Hockey is a huge team sports, there's only so much one player can do. So I don't typically agree with "great ones find easy to win" ... you could have a superhuman performance and still lose.

100% and anyone who say Gilmour in 93 and 94 has the proof. There is only so much an individual can do in a team sport. This isn't basketball, even the highest icetime players only play less than half the game.

Have you seen him play? One of the Greatest hockey machine I have ever seen. A perfect mix of skills and strenght. The guy was an absoulte beast. Esp. when it counted in the playoffs.

A couple of times he even hit 30 goals.

 

[BraveCanadian]

No advanced analytic can capture the glory of that. Lemieux was larger than life. For McDavid to surpass that, he has to start doing genuinely incredible things. Lemieux used hockey to showcase the indomitable nature of the human spirit. That’s beyond individual hardware.

Lemieux did things that people will be talking about forever.

McDavid is well on his way to surpassing Lemieux's career, though, if for no other reason than he'll play more games and have more opportunities to build his resume.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Seems to check out with a quick scan.

1996: Mixed results throughout. Lots of pointless games in each round, the deeper the series goes.

1997 WCF: Pointless in Games 4-6 against Detroit (all losses).

1998 First Round: Pointless in Games 5-7 against Edmonton (all losses).

1999 WCF: One assist total in Games 6 and 7 against Dallas (both losses).

2000 WCF: Another 7 game series loss against Dallas. 1 goal in Games 6 and 7 (and just 1 goal and 1 assist in Games 3-7).

2001: Pretty good, but 1 assist total in Games 4-6 against Los Angeles. Didn’t play in the WCF or SCF.

2002 WCF: Pretty good, but pointless in Games 6 and 7 against Detroit (both losses).

2003: No complaints in first round loss to Minnesota. Managed 1 goal and 3 assists as they lost Games 5-7.

2004: 1 assist total in Games 3-6 of a first round loss to San Jose.

From 1997-2000, Forsberg had 1 goal and 1 assist for 2 points in 10 high pressure games to close out 4 series. They lost 9 of those games and naturally, all four series.

From 2001-2004, Forsberg had 1 goal and 5 assists for 6 points as the Avs lost 9 of 12 games highlighted.

Off topic, but I did a deep dive into this a few years ago: link

Forsberg was, rather surprisingly, underwhelming in playoff elimination games. To quote myself:

This is one of the very few stats I've ever seen that makes Forsberg not look great. He ranks second (behind only Lemieux) in points per game in non-elimination games (1.29), but he apparently only scored 0.71 PPG in elimination games (on par with Derek Roy, Alexandre Burrows, Andrew Shaw, Mark Lamb, and Derek Plante). No star forward is anywhere close to that 0.58 PPG dropoff (the next closet HOF forward, from what I can tell, is Cam Neely with a 0.40 PPG dropoff). Definitely surprising.

Another quote:

He had some huge games of course (the biggest moment was probably in 2002, when he scored the final two goals of the series against San Jose to help the Avalanche come back from a 3-2 series deficit) - but there were way more scoreless games than I remember (including one stretch with three assists in nine consecutive elimination games - actually ten consecutive elimination games, one of which he missed). That's not to place all the blame on Forsberg of course (they ran into some very good goalies including Joseph in 1998, Belfour in 1999, and Nabokov in 2004, and Sakic had his share of scoreless elimination games, but appeared to be more consistent).

For what it's worth, I agree that McDavid has long since passed Forsberg in any all-time ranking.